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NancyH
NancyH, Pet Health Care, Rescue,Train,Breed
Category: Pet
Satisfied Customers: 31958
Experience:  30+yrs pet vet care & nursing, rescue, behavior & training, responsible breeding, small animal care
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bladder stones

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How can a 10 week old puppy have bladder stones? Can it be from lack of hydration (water)? I know that puppy food is high in protein and minerals (i.e.calcium) and wonder if perhaps the puppy had been spilling its water. I asked my vet and he said he never heard of it in a small puppy so young. Thanks
 So what kind of stones? What kind of puppy? How were they diagnosed?

Dr.V

Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Dr. Vamvakias's Post: Dr. V. Thank you for your reply. I certainly do wish I could answer all your questions but without the co-operation of the owner of the bitch dog that birthed these puppies I can only give you the information that is available to me. My stud dog is the father of these puppies. He has studded 8 litters without any health problems with any of his offspring. I have had no answers to phone calls nor have I received any phone calls from the owner of the bitch. I have found out (through mutual acquaintances) that the mother of this bitch was shipped in from a puppy mill so I am now suspect as to her parentage. This was a 1st litter for the bitch and I am told there were 4 puppies born. The owner was not present at birth and came home to find two dead puppies still in the sacs. There were two remaining puppies. They were advertised in the paper for sale at 6 weeks of age. They did not sell but I am told several people tried to call her but could not reach her by phone. She told a mutual friend she would not pay my stud fee until the puppies sold. I am now told that one of the puppies had to have surgery for bladder stones but she would not pay to determine what kind of stones. She states the other pupppy has (or had) an eye infection resulting in scarring of one eye. I also suspect this was probably caused by lack of lacrimal fluid. Further, I have learned that she has been cited by the animal control for abuse to her animals and one horse was so emaciated the animal control insisted it be put down and she was cited into court over the status of her other animals. If I had access to these 2 remaining puppies I would have the stones analized and the other puppies eye checked but under the circumstances I cannot do that. If the whole situation is not resolved to my satisfaction I will have no choice but to report her once again to animal control. These are miniature schnauzers. My male dog has had no health problems nor have any of his lineage. I am sorry I did not check this person out more thoroughly before this mating and of course I will not deal with her again. There has never been one person who has bought one of my studs pups ever had a health problem. I am a registered nurse and can figure no cause for a cystic bladder condition at this young age. Of course the pups would have been nursing for the first weeks and I assume (although I don't know) that they were sufficiently hydrated during that time provided the bitch dog was getting adequate water. Sorry to have to make this so detailed and still not be able to give you more specific details. I just don't like the reflection it puts on my stud dog. What is your advise under these uncooperative circumstances? Thanks much.Customer

 DeVonna,


In my experience...the puppies that I have seen with stones in less than 6 month olds have been min schnauzers! Causes are as follows;


Usually when you see stones in dogs and cats less than a year of age they are almost always either:
1) infection-induced struvite or
2) ammonium urate (usually secondary to a portosystemic shunt)


Porotsystemic shunts are genetic liver disease where the blood vessels to the liver are messed up.  Testing would need to occur in this puppy to determine if that was the case...surgery is the best option for the puppy if that is the cause.


It sounds like the living and health conditions for the bitch and puppies were not ideal...an infection in a young pup can be from nutritional deficiencies, poor immune systems, dirty environment.


I hope this is helpful.


As far as the situation with your stud/reputation and so forth...I am going to ask a breeder to respond.


Good luck,


Dr.V

   

Dr. Vamvakias, Veterinarian
Category: Pet
Satisfied Customers: 998
Experience: Small Animal & Emergency Medicine
Dr. Vamvakias and 2 other Pet Specialists are ready to help you
http://www.mscc.ca/stones.html talks about bladder stones in Miniature Schnauzers among other things it says stones have been seen in pups of this breed as young as 5 weeks!
As this has such a high incidence in the breed second only to Dalmations I think you can presume a hereditary problem requiring the right match up of genes to produce a full blown case of it.
The fact that your stud has not produced this before may only indicate that he has not been genetically matched with mates that carried the rest of the genes needed to show this disease.
As you are a nurse you probably will realize that genotype and phenotype do not always match and hidden in canine genes can be diseases that the parent may not show but can pass along to offspring who will, if their other parent has the rest of the puzzle pieces to complete the pattern, then show the disease.
The liver shunt Dr V spoke about is also an inherited defect. Again it *may* be that your dog carries a portion of the genes that are required to contribute to this problem. The absence of the problem in his other offspring indicates that your breeding choices in the other litters were better compliments to his genetic line.
If you had gotten a pedigree on the dog you bred to that would mean you would have a clue about lines NOT to match up your stud or any of his offspring to which could be useful to you down the road.
As the stones can also be precipiated by infection the other item you listed, the eye issue, may be a clue. When kept in filthy conditions pups often get infected eyes when the eyes are first opening. If the eye shuts again at that 10-14 day period of opening with infection trapped inside serious damage, scarring, and blindness can result.
Urinary tract infections can also be acquired from unclean conditions. While my mother dogs and pups get freshly bleached bedding changed twice a day I doubt this poor girl or her pups did. Hygiene, as I'm sure you know is critical for young things to stay healthy!
I presume as you have a dog at public stud (ie you do not reserve him for your own use only) that you ensure that any female brought to him has had the appropriate brucellosis testing done.
I would suggest a couple of other things to also request from visiting females owners - at least a 3 generation copy of the pedigree for you to review and retain and the information on the other health testing (such as a CERF exam) that the female has had done. Making sure you know the bloodlines and that the females are vet checked for health is the safest way to keep your reputation and your dog's health clear.
If you do not have a written stud agreement that people sign you might want to consider one. That gives you better legal recourse if you have to go to court.
As it stands now you can take the woman to small claims court for the stud fee but you have a better chance if you have the information in writing. If you filled out registration paperwork and kept a copy that would be a help in a case like that too.
If you have the AKC information on the dam you can go to www.akc.org and look up her pedigree for a small fee. That might be useful to you when considering future possible breeding partners for your line of dogs. I'd avoid dogs related to this female for sure!
If the dogs are not AKC I'm afraid you will be out of luck as the other registries are even less accurate in keeping any records.
When studding your dog out knowing as much as you can of the quality of the female you are bringing to him is important in keeping your own reputation intact. I know you know this now but I hope I have helped you with some ideas in how to keep this sort of thing from happening to you again. I know how distressing it can be to suddenly face a genetic issue when you were sure your dogs were all perfectly healthy. Some detective work and care in breeding should prove for you that this was just an error in match up of lines.
NancyH, Pet Health Care, Rescue,Train,Breed
Category: Pet
Satisfied Customers: 31958
Experience: 30+yrs pet vet care & nursing, rescue, behavior & training, responsible breeding, small animal care
NancyH and 2 other Pet Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Thank you so much for your response and thank you for the url. One other thing - is there a good breeding contract available on line? You are so correct in stating I should have been more diligent in my homework before dealing with this woman. I have been more diligent in the past but since this lady was a friend of a reputable friend I failed to follow through. We have both learned from this experience. Her lack of co-operation on stone analysis and refusal to talk to me concerning the health of of her bitch's lineage as well as her past reputation which has came to light leaves us very suspect. My male has his dna on file with AKC. I neglected to make a copy of the litter registration papers but since AKC has his dna profile do you think they could trace this for me? Sorry for the extra questions but I would like to do all I can on my part to somehow follow up on these puppies if they are in fact sold and registered. Thanks again and I will be accepting your answer and I am very happy I found this site. I would also like to make a payment to Nancy for her assistance in her response. How do I do this. I just feel very helpless, guilty and sorry for those little puppies and you can be sure I will be (if not paranoid) much much more careful in the future. Years of working in newborn ICU has taught me how important proper care is to fragile newborn lives. I have shed more than a few tears over this situation.    
If the pups were registered with AKC you may be able to call the customer service line and get the info on the litter sired by your stud.
They might be able to email you a copy of the info.
The best I can find in the FAQs is this info
"Can I accept more than one answer?
Yes. After you accept your first answer, the other answers will still be available for accepting. Accept the second answer just like you did your first. One note, you will have to pay for each answer you accept and can not split an acceptance. "
If you placed a deposit you can add more money to your account and do another accept. If you have trouble with that the justanswer tech support category is there to ask for help.
Dr V may know more about this too :-)
On the puppies - you might want to see if a friend can call this lady and get the pups or tell her you will take the pups off her hands in lieu of the stud fee. She might be using caller ID to duck your calls. She might be glad to get rid of them if they are costing her money.
Or see if the humane society would go in and take the pups with you standing ready to be the 'adopter' if the court awards them to that organization.
I wish every stud dog owner were as concientious!
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Nancy Holmes's Post: Nancy I am trying to pay but can't figure it out. Help    thanks
DeVonna - you accepted one from me fine but you need to accept one from Dr V if you want to also. You'd accept on the one not listed as a free post.

The June issue of Dog World Magazine not only has an article on the Mini Schnauzer which is the cover dog but also has info on stud dog contracts! I don't know of any good ones online but that issue of the mag might help you!

If you can't get the payment to work post a question in the tech support group about doing it. Customer Support is really good here and they should be back to you ASAP :)
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Nancy Holmes's Post: Thanks Nancy - I am beginning to understand this process. Thanks also for letting me know about the June issue. I have 2 stud contracts and like some things about both of them but even combined they are still lacking. Perhaps this issue will help me come up with my own stud contract. Thanks again...I have also found numerous other help on the internet. Don't know what we did without computers. Dee (Oh, yeah, happy mothers day from all your past, present, and future babies).
You are quite welcome!
And Happy Mother's Day back from the fur kids!
I can tell you for sure getting information was a lot harder pre-internet! now things I spent hours on the phone nailing down can be had in a few minutes!

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