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yamsuzpolaris
yamsuzpolaris, Motorcycle Mechanic
Category: Motorcycle
Satisfied Customers: 137
Experience:  service technician on yamaha suzuki polaris products since early 70's. currently own and manage deal
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Sportsman 500..doesnt start..no click or dash lights, even..solenoid

Resolved Question:

My 2007 sportsman 500 doesn't start - no click or dash lights, even. Battery is good. I can force the engine to turn by connecting the solenoid posts. What first steps should I be taking to troubleshoot this problem?
It's my first bike and I don't know much about them.
Neil
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: Motorcycle
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
sounds like no battery voltage to ignition switch. you must have a voltage tester meter and/or ohm meter to proceed. let me know when you are ready. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

I'm at work now, but have an electrician friend coming over tonight with meters to measure where juice is/is not flowing. Do you suggest I test the ECU? Is the drivers or passengers side of the ECU the inflow?

Thanks for your help, I will certainly accept if your help gets the problem discovered.

Neil

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
I do need specific exact model as wiring is different on the various models from that year. also please verify that it is a 2007 or if not 100% certain supply me the serial number and I'll verify thru polaris records. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Mark, where do I find the serial number? or VIN? on the tank it says Mod#(NNN) NNN-NNNN Ser# XXXXX does this help?
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
serial is located on the lower bottom frame rail, left side, down in area below the oil reservoir tank and just in front of where floorboards is mounted. just reply to me and send only the 17 characters without any other identy so they are not blocked out. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
got it, thanks for the description. 4xamn50a57a966378
since last, we figured out that 12 volts are coming in and out of the ecu (gadget above radiator with fins - ecu, right?) only one hole on drivers side showed 12, one hole on passenger side with 12, one on pass. side with 5, a few with 1 volt. ignition switch has no power to it, so I assume it's fine. battery tested today, it's perfect.
thoughts?
Neil
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
attached are wiring diagram and more important is the chart which shows which numbered ends of wires go where. look at the schematic and the reference wire number chart and you should figure it out. the finned unit is sscb which is a solid state circuit breaker and control module. voltage 12 v begins from battery side of starter solenoid, then runs on red wire to the sscb module. from there it comes out and goes to both the engine kill switch and ignition switch so that when both are turned on, the electrical system is energized. the schematic shows how the ignition switch and kill switch flow power thru when they are turned to run position. to test the sscb I usually put a jumper with 12 volts straight to the ignition switch harness plug at the red wire with black stripe (rd/bk) wire at either the kill switch or the ignition switch, or jumper the switch itself with a paper clip bent in a U shape. then if gauge lights up you know the problem is in the sscb or the wiring harness itself. Markgraphic
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
here is chart that must be used with schematic. polaris makes it real easy to follow huh? Markgraphic
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Mark, I just had my electrician friend over to test your answer - sure enough, when 12v was run to the red/black wire on the ignition switch, the lights came up, fuel pump knocked, everything was normal. I just ordered the sscb (Control Module, part(NNN) NNN-NNNNfrom my local dealer and will install it when it comes in on Friday. As soon as that happens, I'll know if this was the culprit.

Thank you again for your help, I will gladly accept your answer if the new Module solves the problem.

And if it doesn't, I hope you'll be willing to help me troubleshoot the next option.

Thank you again,

Neil

 

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.

as a precaution also check the engine kill switch. we had a unit here that switch was bad, but if you put your thumb on it and pressed and wiggled on it the electrical system would light up. you can use an ohm meter to test that also with the schematic I sent. or just use the 12 volt jumper wire and jump 12 volts directly to the "in" wire on the switch, then the "out" wire, and see what happens. Mark

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Mark,
not good. i got my new $360 sscb, installed it, and i'm back to square one.
i tested the kill switch first, it was fine. killed like it was supposed to.
as i was installing the sscb, plugging in the drivers side plug, the fan jumped on for less than a second, then stopped. i plugged the passenger side in next. nothing woke up.
then the big moment, i turned the key to "on" and the fuel pump prepared itself with the electric whine, but no headlight. i turned it to "start" and nothing happened. no click, nothing.
i checked around, wiggled plugs, same result. again, check everything, plugged in the large plug at the back of the dash panel that i didnt know someone unplugged, tried again, same result.
wiggled plugs, try again - this time, the fuel pump whined, then shut itself off with a fast "click click click click" before i turned the key to off. crud... turned the key back and forth, now there's no click or whine or anything. totally dead again. the battery charger is on it now for a half hour, it was full, but it's still not doing anything at all.
looking for help.
frustrated,
Neil
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
tomorrow I will send to you the diagram of ONLY the wires and connectors that energize the system when ignition switch is turned on. to test any of this stuff you need a voltmeter, and the basic understanding of where each wire goes and to be able to test voltage at each stop along the way. if you have voltage when you get to last end of wire or switch, then its gotta work. this was proven when you put 12 volts to the red/black wire at the ignition switch and everything turned on. but what is INBETWEEN the battery and the red/black wire from ignition switch is: starter solenoid/ fusible link/ sscb#1 connector/ sscb#2 connector/ a splice of red/yellow wires / the kill switch (which both switches battery voltage AND kills the engine with 2 different circuits in the same switch / then onto the ignition switch. use a voltmeter and test for 12 volts at each of the following places: 12v at connector sscb#1 H pin which is red wire. if you have 12v there then see if you have 12v at sscb#2 connector red/yellow wire. if so, then volts go to a red/yellow wire splice (god only knows where in the harness) and continues onward to the kill switch. got 12v at the red/yellow wire at the left handlebar kill switch? if so, and switch is in the run position you must have 12v at the red/black wire in the other connector on the kill switch housing. if so, kill switch is good. if not, kill switch is bad. 12 volts then goes in this red/black wire to the main ignition switch. when you turn the ignition switch on, 12 volts goes into the yellow wire. test it here. if not, ignition switch is bad. AGAIN, jumpering as you did a while ago shows that problem lies in between battery and ignition switch somewhere. ALSO check ALL brown wires to make sure they are properly grounded. there should be at least 1 or 2 brown wires from the sscb unit that need to be grounded. if not, the sscb unit may not work properly. ALSO 1 MORE THING! wiggle ALL wires and connectors on each component as you test it here. we have seen wires break inside the harness and/or where they are crimped onto connector pins inside of the plastic multiple connectors. if wiggling wires or connectors can make the things turn on and off, the harness is bad. I've sold many other brands of vehicles for 30-40 years, but only on a polaris product have I seen wiring internally in the harness or the connector plugs go bad. I'll send the other diagram tomorrow, and when you look closely at it, cross match with the other 2 diagrams I sent earlier, and then look and think about 12 volts following wires like following a trail, you'll find the problem. Mark
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
attach is ignition on wiring diagramgraphic
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Great information, Mark. Thanks for the detailed instructions - I'm certainly not an electrical trouble shooter. This helps a ton.

 

I've been talking you up to my friends and one is having a hard time with the electrical system on his (get this) 1964 Suzuki M12. Do you have the ability to look up the elec schematic on that machine (if they even made them?)? If you do, how can I get a check to you to cover your time? Time is money and your time is greatly appreciated.

 

I'll let you know what I find as I go through the Power On - EFI diagram.

Thanks Mark,
Neil

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
then he should call me sometime. I have a 1964 or 65 T10 suzukiXXXXXbike. I'm sure they were basically all the same back then except different models just had different displacement engines. technical information does not exist for any of that stuff. BUT!!!! I do have an owners manual for my T10 that has a schematic in the back, and I'm sure out in the shop in my pile of stuff I even have a service manual. can find me at aleks powersports in erie pa by google. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Mark,

I dove into the whole electrical system and can't figure out the problem. I wrote down all of the volts coming in and out of each spot. Here's a goofy thing: on sscb 1, I have 12 volts coming in. On sscb 2, there's only 5.5 volts coming out and going to the wire that feeds the ignition and kill switch. Can you figure out why that would be? I assume it needs 12 volts to run.

I tested a friend's perfectly-good kill switch and it didn't change anything. So I'm more sure that it's not the issue.

A goofy thing, can you make sense out of this? I left my batter charger on for a few hours the other night and, at some point, the lights came on and I ran out to the garage, turned the key, and it started up just fine. wtf.... you know? could it be the battery? I had it tested at Batteries Plus and they said it was just fine. I think I'll buy one anyways (14 day return policy) to see if that changes anything.

Thoughts?

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.

I am hoping that you are CAREFULLY following the detailed current flow for the ignition system as I described above and ONLY when you are also holding a print out sheet of the diagram of the ignition only circuit. simply start at the battery and follow each wire COLOR CAREFULLY checking voltage AT EACH POINT along the way. I've never personally seen a sscb unit go bad, but I"ve heard that they can and do. its hard to believe its the battery IF you have 12 volts going into the sscb unit at the connector plug and pin as described, yet only have 5.5 volts coming out. are you testing at the correct connector/ pin/ and wire color on the sscb2 connector? if so, I would make a temporary jumper wire and connect from where power goes in then over to the wire where power comes out (I cant remember the colors without looking at ignition circuit diagram again) and see if everything works as it should. you will need 12 volts minimum for everything to work properly. if it does, this would indicate a faulty sscb unit? I've also got a call into polaris tech to see if they have any ideas on this. I've always found the tough electrical issues here and never found one I couldn't fix. Mark

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Yes, I had the ignition only diagram next to me the whole time that I was testing the system. It's at home (and I'm at work), but I followed it carefully, referencing the whole electrical schematic to fully understand where wires go.

The sscb is the part that I already purchased and it didn't change anything. Read back through the older posts, I thought that the new sscb would fix the problem, too, but it didn't.
I would love to know what the polaris tech says. If it would help to have a video or pictures of anything, I will figure out how to get that posted here.

Thanks Mark,

Neil

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
when I spoke with polaris he said to re-check the fusible link and the 12 volt main feed for everything from the starter solenoid. AGAIN, start with wiring diagram. 12 volt starts at battery, goes to starter solenoid terminal. also there then is a thinner wire black, then goes inside of a plastic like bubble thats the fusible link inside. its non servicable. goes then to a red wire that goes straight to sscb1 position H. must have 12 volts there. comes out on sscb2 position M as a yellow wire. must have 12 volts there. yellow wire goes to ignition switch must have 12 volts there. when ignition switch turns on 12 volts goes thru red/black wire over to handlebar kill switch, should have 12 volts there. when switch is in the middle run position 12 volts flows thru to the red/white wire coming out of kill switch. if you have 12 volts at this point, everything turns on. the only other variable is a loss of ground. make sure battery ground cable is tight and firm to the frame bolt. on polaris products the BROWN wire is a ground wire. if anywhere a brown wire with a terminal end is not grounded that can give all type of problems. Also the engine block is grounded to the frame by a large wire that bolts ti the head somewhere and then by-passes the rubber engine mount and bolts to where mount bolt bolts to frame. loose for any of this stuff to make sure a wire didnt break off or a bolt came loose on a ground wire. With a voltmeter and a short piece of wire to use as a "jumper" to test if you have no voltage at any point, but when using jumper everything lights up, that telling you something "in-between" is bad. with a piece of wire I can hotwire and steal it if I want, its just knowing where 12 volts gotta be to start it up. recheck everything 1 inch at a time please. Mark
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
an idea to be checking for quality grounds would be to put pos lead of voltmeter on wire you are testing for voltage at, and to put the neg lead of voltmeter on the frame somewhere, and then also move it to motor block and see if reading is the same. if you are put it to battery neg post that wont be accurate if battery isn't grounding to all of frame and motor block areas. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Hi Mark,
I walked through the whole diagram again with the same results- 12 volts to the sscb 1, 5.5 volts out of the sscb 2 yellow wire that feeds the ignition.

new event: i left the ignition switch on "on" for a few hours and saw glowing lights from the garage! ran out, turned the key and it started. wtf, hey? Then shut it off, and it won't turn back on. i charged the battery with the switch "on" for hours and it did the same thing, i was able to start it. does this mean that something needed to warm up enough to work? unreal...

new learning: i get 5.5 volts at the yellow wire at the ignition switch when the switch is removed or on the "off" position. When the switch is "on", I only get .21 volts. Also when "on", the red/black wire running to the kill switch has .21 volts. Could this mean that another wire has somehow tapped into the power that is supposed to be reserved for the ignition system? And if that's the case, could it be that the other, "tapped" wire could be touching after the ignition diagram or would the tap have to be before power gets to the ignition switch?

Really looking forward to solving this problem and I appreciate your help,
Neil
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Mark,
i'm working on it again and have more news for you to ponder. when i jump 12 volts from the battery to the red/black wire at the ignition switch, the dashboard display lights up and (didn't notice this before) a wrench picture blinks a half dozen times. then it shuts off and the "Check Engine" light comes on and stays on.
i havent taken the Sportsman to my local shop yet to have a diagnosis run, would you recommend i do that? they charge $88 for a diagnosis, so i have hessitated taking it in.
also, is there a kit/program that i can buy to self-diagnose with a laptop at home?
Thanks Mark,
Neil
Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
the only program in existence for this is from a polaris dealer. its called digital wrench. when laptop is connected it will tell all fail codes in memory. but this only deals with the fuel injection part of the vehicle. it will not diagnose any other non-fuel injected problems. powering up the entire atv electrical system is not fuel injected related, although the wrench also blinks when vehicle has reached a pre-determined number of hours between service internals also. usually its set for 50 hours. this is just an alert feature. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Got it, thanks for the advice. Do you have any thoughts about the 12v coming into sscb 1 and only 5.5v coming out of sscb 2? Could voltage be getting lost coming out of sscb 1 before it can get over to 2?

Neil

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
I dont know. this is a solid state device that controls many items on the atv. only 1 part inside contains a circuit breaker thermo unit that when tripped it shuts down till it cools. I sent you several pages from service manual, and 1 of those pages had a diagram of its internals. but to be more specific, MUST follow the ignition diagram I sent to you. that lists the pin location (by letter) and the color of the wires and how power flows, and ONLY addresses the ignition switch on part of the electrical system. I hope you are not getting too far ahead of yourself, and are looking closely at the diagrams to make SURE you are on the proper wire pin location in each large connector plug (sscb1 and sscb2). without a magnifying glass is impossible. also make sure that the wire pins are not bent over or breaking off. a very slight chance, but possible. Polaris is also the only manufacturer I ran across that wires break inside of colored insulation where they are crimped onto the connector metal pin and where they slide inside the large plastic connector blocks. so many of these machines do this at the sensor units for the efi system that polaris made new connection kits for when this happens. it was previously the only cure was to replace the entire harness. on your machine, gently wiggle and move and push on all the wires where they both go in and out of the sscb unit. it is always possible that 1 broke off or if ALMOST broken off inside of the colored wire insulation and thats whats giving you a voltage drop. Mark
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Hi Mark, I walked back through the "power on" diagram carefully with another electrician-trouble-shooter. He was excited about helping to solve this problem, but was as frustrated as I am after 4 hours on Saturday.

For sure, there are no bent pins and I'm testing only the wires on the "power on" diagram.

What stumped him is exactly what is stumping me: how could it possibly be that I have 12v coming into the sscb, but only between 5v and 5.5v coming into the yellow wire that goes to the ignition switch? The sscb is the only thing in between those two plugs and I just replaced it with a new one.

Another thing we learned: While jumping 12v to the red/black wire at the ignition plug, we measured the power coming to the "B" position wire on the ignition plug - the one that power feeds to after being passed through the kill switch, headlights, and a splice. As soon as we put the tester on the "B" wire, the volts measured decreased over a couple seconds down to nothing. What could that mean? It threw me off badly.

One thing that the latest helper told me that I did wrong was to plug the new sscb into sscb1 while the battery was plugged in. He said that I may have fried the sscb. But, he took apart the old sscb and couldn't find any place on the circuit board that looked bad, burnt, or disconnected.

 

I've double + checked everything and still have a large paperweight in the garage. Any other thoughts or any shops in Wisconsin that you know of that can help me would be appreciated. I live in Franksville (53126), but go west of Madison often.

Thanks for not giving up, Mark.

Neil

Expert:  yamsuzpolaris replied 4 years ago.
another thing to check as you mentioned in last response about voltage dropping down to nothing after a few moments. check at the same time period the battery voltage. is it the battery itself dropping? or is it only the specific point at which you are testing it? if you were to use a length of wire and go directly from the positive terminal on the battery (considering the battery is holding its voltage) and go from there and connect other end of this jumper wire to the red input wire at sscb1, do you have the same results. if you dont have any drop now, then I would suspect the in-line main fusible link thermo breaker which is inside of a large black plastic vinyl "pouch". do all of these things first. as a last resort I would make a in-line fuse jumper piece and leaving everything connected I would connect the input wire sscb1 over to the sscb2 wire coming out that is circuit breaker protected internally. if this then works, that would tell me the sscb unit is defective, although it is new, there may be a less than 1% possibility of that. and that would suck. Mark
yamsuzpolaris, Motorcycle Mechanic
Category: Motorcycle
Satisfied Customers: 137
Experience: service technician on yamaha suzuki polaris products since early 70's. currently own and manage deal
yamsuzpolaris and 3 other Motorcycle Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Hi Mark,

Sorry it's been a few weeks, here's the latest:

I tested the battery voltage, it's not dropping, and jumped 12v to the sscb1, same results.

A couple weeks ago, my dad brought the atv to Vetesnik Power Sports in Richland Center. It's real close to our family farm where the atv will be used the most. A relative in the area uses them for service and really likes how he is treated.

Vetesnik's has been trouble shooting and have narrowed the fix down to the sscb unit - again. They have a copy of this whole transcript and know that I already replaced it one time, but are sure that it's the culprit.

I will let you know if the new sscb fixes the problem, but I'm not hopeful - I think I'm getting pessimistic about the atv in general.

Thank you for all of your guidance and trying to help me fix it. I sincerely XXXXX XXXXX and you earned and deserve the $28 for all of the time you have spent.

Once I hit "accept answer", I hope I can still communicate with you with updates or requests for more help (cross your fingers I don't need to!). My email address is XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX, shoot me an email if you think of it so I can keep you updated.

Thanks again,

Neil Buchanan

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
neilallenbuchanan @ gmail dot com

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