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Doug
Doug, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Mitsubishi
Satisfied Customers: 8540
Experience:  Mitsubishi employed and Factory trained ASE certified technician
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2002 talon will not start, no spark

Customer Question

2002 talon will not start, no spark
Submitted: 6 months ago.
Category: Mitsubishi
Expert:  rpmdiag replied 6 months ago.

Hi, I’m Ron and I can help you.
I have been in the auto repair business with my own shops since 1975 and also teach automotive repair. I am confident we can resolve your problem together. Please understand that I don't know your skill level. In most cases when you have a problem with the way the vehicle performs, specialized tooling is required to acquire computer data/information or engine testing results. We didn’t build these complicated vehicles; we just diagnose and fix them. Also understand that I can't see, smell, hear, or touch the vehicle either, so it may take a few replies to get to satisfactory results. I am also going to direct you with the fastest, easiest and most common things to check first. Please be patient and permit me to do what I do best.
I also try to give all of the information you may need, expecting a “positive rating” in return. I will also continue assisting you after you have rated me, if necessary. If there is any reason I cannot get a positive rating, please let me know why “in advance”, so I can go another direction for you. I am sorry you’re having this problem; I’ll help you through it.

I would start with checking out the CRANK sensor, that and the module can cause this issue. if you have access to a code reader or scan tool, you should also check for codes.

Thanks, Ron

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
everything changed but the rear view mirror by another bunch of mechanics.. i'll list if you need..I have checked, no spark to plugs..
system has 2 coil packs, ONE for cyls 1 and 4 and then ANOTHER FOR CYLS 2 AND 3..
I CHECKED LEADS TO EACH COIL... ITS A 3 PIN PLUG..
FOR COIL PACK 1-4 LEFT LEAD IS 12 VOLTSVKEY ON AND 12 VOLTS CRANKING.
NO POWER OR SIGNALS TO OTHER 2 LEADS..NOTHING..
FOR COIL PACK 2-3 IT IS DIFFERENT
WITH KEY ON THERE IS 12 VOLTS CA\RANKING AND WITH KEY ON..(LEFT PIN)
WHILE CRANKING CENTER IN HAS .26 VOLTS. NOTHING WITH KEY ON
THE 3RD PIN HAS 0 VOLTS WITH KEY ON AND 5 VOLTS WHILE CRANKING..
JOE..
Expert:  rpmdiag replied 6 months ago.

Hi Joe, I would have to say a CRANK sensor or striker not getting the signal from the CRANK sensor, or the ignition switch throwing the signal down.

Thanks again, and please don't forget to rate me and keep this link in case you need me again later on.

Ron

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
I GOT A LIST OF THINGS CHANGED AND CRANK SENSOR IS ON THAT LIST.. NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT NEW ONE IS BAD OR IMPROPERLY INSTALLED. i HAVE CAR ON LIFT. WILL SEEWHAT I SEE .. WHATS LOCATION OF CRANK SENSOR.. JOE
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
FOUND SENSOR LOCATION ON INTERNET/. CHECKING UNIT NOW JOE
Expert:  rpmdiag replied 6 months ago.

Check the striker ring that the crank sensor uses as a signal too.

OFF line for a while, check back with you later.

Thanks, Ron

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
I HAVE MADE NUMEROUS ATTTEMPTS TO LOCATE SENSOR. AS BEST i CAN DETERMINE ITS BEHIND PLASTIC TIMING COVER WHICH IS BEHIND MAIN PULLEY. i WILL ATTEMPT THIS ACTION TOMORROW MORN AS i WORK HALF DAYS AND IT IS NOW BEYOND NOON.. PLEASE INSTRUCT ME IF i'M WRONG OR RIGHT. YOU SHOULD SEE THIS MSG BEFORE QUITTING TODAY. RSVP JOE
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
faced with multi fix possibilities and the new crank sensor already installed what would u suggest ?
Joe i saw new sensor lead..
Expert:  rpmdiag replied 6 months ago.
The crank sensor is external Joe, I'll send the location to you tomorrow, ok?
Ron
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
I see 4 locations mentioned on internet
.i see crank sensor lead front left of engine behind ps pump going down behind plaztic timing chain cover..the new sensor still has mitsu part number on it.. its new..again see last note. where would u go from here. Joe..thx
Expert:  rpmdiag replied 6 months ago.

I would use a lab scope and test it. See attachment, and please remember to rate me for my time.

Thanks again, Ron

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
Thamks for early morn response.. Ive had difficulty getting thru early morns frequently..As far as shop scope, none avail here. I have timing light and multi meter, and tach and dwell meter..thats the extent of my electronics.
sorry, I dont hac oscelliscope.
Is there an alternate method of diagnosis.?
Expert:  rpmdiag replied 6 months ago.

Not really, these are essential tools for that type of electronics.

Thanks again, Ron

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
is crank sensor behind crank pulley and timing chain cover..
how might I check for ignition switch pulldown as you described earlier..
is striker on the crank?? or am I dead in the water??? without scope.. Joe
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

Hi,

Can you clarify what vehicle you have? There was no 2002 Talon, only ~92-99 era.
Also can you clarify what engine you have? There was a 1.8L Mitsubishi engine, a 2.0L Mitsubishi engine, a 2.0L Turbo Mitsubishi engine and a 2.0L Chrysler engine. The crank sensor set up varies greatly between these based on different engines/years, so there is really no way to go forward without at least knowing the correct year and engine type.

Thanks

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
sorry I owned a talon and cant get the word out of my mind. this is an itchibushi eclipse, 2002. 2.4 loter. 16 valve.. joe
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

No worries Joe, that simplified a lot.

This particular year does add some potential other possibilities that I would like to look into as well. Your initial complaint was that there was no spark. This is verified on both coils that there is no spark correct?

The Service Engine Soon light is turning on for a bulb test when you first turn on the key correct?

Are you getting injector pulse while cranking?

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
I got zero on the spark plug wires I could test.. one from each coil Others direct onto plugs.
check engine light does work
tested 3 injectors for clicking while cranking... yes they click..
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
did you see diagnostics provided on coil wire inputs?? using volt meter..
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

Thanks... if you are getting injector pulse, that pretty effectively rules out a crank sensor since it drives both the ignition and injection timing.

No I did not see the coil inspections, let me try to find that up there.

Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

Thanks, ***** ***** things up tremendously.

So the black/white wire on each coil you have 12V at key on.
The black wires are ground so we aren't too concerned about them since they shared ground anyway.

The third wires (white/green and black/blue) you have 5V on one while cranking and zero voltage on the other while cranking, is that correct?

If so, two questions:

1) Are we 100% certain the timing belt is aligned properly?

2) Has the cam sensor been replaced with an aftermarket sensor?

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
wires and colors and voltage correct
timing unknown
cam sensor new,,, brand unknown.. crank sensor is mitsu..
where is cam sensor. I'll check to see what brand if possible,,
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

The cam sensor is on the drivers end of the head, just slightly obscured by the plastic intake duct. On the back (narrow end) of the head there will be an aluminum housing and the sensor slides into the top of it, held down with a 10mm bolt.
Check to see if it looks abnormally clean/shiny as well as the color (gray ones are more problematic than black ones). Those are the only identifying properties... it may have a mitsubishi logo, that doesn't mean anything though (the chinese ones are mold-copies anyway and carry the logo over).

If it looks particularly new, have a helper crank the engine while you unplug/replug the sensor in several times and see if it hiccups at all.

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
give me a couple mins to do this.. gota remove air duct to see...
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

No problem.

Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

You can usually just unlatch the air filter clasps and flex it out of the way without having to undo the hose clamps etc.

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
not easy to get to but done.... no hiccups at all. I checked to see cam was turning thru oil cap and yes it is.. Joe
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
cam sensor was on the list of things done.. It does look new... black in color
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

Thanks.

Usually if the issue is a bad-new cam sensor that will make it hiccup a little at the least.

Basically your last inspection, and it is going to be a long shot, will be to verify the belt is timed right.

The issue with our spark is the trigger voltages (third wire on the coils). These should be pulsing between 0V and anywhere from 300mV-3V as you crank. The one wire having no voltage can be an indication of the belt jumping time. If the belt is not aligned properly the computer will shut down one coil to try to protect itself (stall the engine before it hits a valve under high RPM etc).

The problem with this being an issue in your case is first that your other coil is showing 5V... above the 3V max trigger which is indicating a problem in itself... and second that you are missing spark on both coils anyway.

The computer will only shut down both coils intentionally as a result of an immobilizer mismatch, and if that were the case you would not have injector operation either. You have neither coil firing so a belt alignment issue is highly improbable, and you have injector operation so an immobilizer issue is impossible.
Basically.... apart from wiring damage (Which in itself is unlikely since you are seeing high voltage on one of the trouble wires), it looks like you are going to be putting a new ecu in this car if nothing can be found with the wiring.

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
ok we may be on to something. new coils, wires, and even new ecuthey had problem with car occasionally going into limp mode..then back out to 4 cyls..I cannot confirm timing at this time.... your thoughts
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
mitsu dealer changed ecu and then wanted to put car on machine for further diagnosis but owner refused after dumping
megabucks into multiple attempts by numerous shops... I got it as last opportunity to fix,,
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
remember Im using a volt meter to test the coil wires,, joe
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

My only concern there would be that if someone put some cheap china coils in it they may have blown out the new ecu.
Either way, the voltages tell the story... you have 5V on a 3V peak driver alone, not to mention of course the dead driver.

The volt meter is fine for testing those... the voltage is low enough we get an accurate-enough peak, which is all we are interested in. There is no need to scope a trigger voltage in this scenario anyway.

Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

Assuming of course they didn't just install a used ecu which may have been bad to begin with... this particular issue is fairly common due to the low grade coils places like autozone sell, they bleed 12V across the trigger wire from poor epoxy sealing inside, blowing out the drivers.

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
lets see if I got this right... bad (cheap) coils may have blitzed the coil drivers (ecu) causing ecu to go bad..
in that case we gotta rechange coils and ecu... joe.. things are getting worse,,
Customer: replied 6 months ago.
if car put onto mitsu diagnostic machine would we know??
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

I'm just speculating if the condition is the identical to prior to the ecu change and the ecu change was a brand new one (so no expectation for driver problem). That would be the only explanation for a brand new ecu failing. And again it is common for cheap coils to blow these drivers out, which is why used ecus are not really trustworthy.

All the dealer can do is verify the trigger voltages.... if the voltages are out of range it is either a belt alignment issue (be it physical or sensor reading poorly), a wiring problem, or blown drivers in the ecu.
Since you have high voltage on one and no spark, a belt issue is far less probable... Might be worth double checking just in case, I wouldn't hold my breath though.

The trigger voltages are the bot***** *****ne regardless... there is no "other fuse" or some other random device that is going to cause those symptoms.... belt timing/signal, wiring, ecu. That's it.

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
for me check timing belt to be on marks, and then off to mitsu for them to determine if trigger voltages are within specs..
beyond that goodby car. it would be another computer and 2 coils....I hate to loose a fix..
Expert:  Doug replied 6 months ago.

Yeah this has been the death sentence to many Eclipses... with the ecus being in the $1000 range, and it hard to find good used ones, the car usually has to be in really stellar condition to go forward with a repair like that. Even more so if it potentially already had an actual new one in it and popped it too.

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