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Doug C.
Doug C., ASE Certified Technician
Category: Mitsubishi
Satisfied Customers: 6502
Experience:  Mitsubishi employed and Factory trained ASE certified technician
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2002 eclipse 2.4L Automatic no start issue. no spark!

Resolved Question:

2002 eclipse 2.4L Automatic no start issue. no spark!
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Mitsubishi
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Hi,

It looks like you have done a lot of repair attempts on this vehicle already, can you please describe the events that led up to this problem?

Do you have a fuel pulse (pulsing ground on the injector connectors)?

Have you physically pulled a spark plug and wire out and grounded them on the engine to visually confirm there is no spark?

Thanks
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Yes I got fuel pulse just low voltage. I also would like to add I did check the MFI relay with the battery and meter trick and did test good. also I would like to add something else. I have been reading about the "IGNITION FAILURE SENSOR" but I do not think my car has one.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
2002 models should not have an ignition failure sensor.

You said you have low voltage to the injectors? The injectors should have 12V at all times that the key is on. Please verify this.

Please verify again if you physically pulled a plug and wire and confirmed there is no spark.

Thanks
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


no the injectors have 12V I have low volts to the coil packs. Yes I pulled the plug and tested for spark.This is my son's car. He come home one day running one pack and I checked and he had a bad coil pack ( the pack close to the timing belt). It looked like it overheated. It had wires exposed on top of it. I changed the pack and now I get no spark.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.

Okay thanks... real important that you are clear on each answer you give to me, as you can see that would have been a huge difference.

So you replaced the PCM in the midst of all this, and the immobilizer ecu and reprogrammed the keys, is that all correct?

Have you re-checked for spark since you did this?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


yes I checked for spark after all that was done. I am showing 5V on the ecu side of the coil and I now would like to add I am getting 3 to 5V on the crankshaft sensor ground. (brown wire)

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
You are seeing 5V on the trigger wire for the coils? That is not a good sign.

Does this signal cycle when you crank the engine?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Yes 5 volts when the key is on and when I try and start the car it bounces all over the place between 1 and 5 V

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Okay..... lets hope that this is due to an accuracy issue with your meter.
The voltage from the computer should be 300mV to 3V PEAK. Anything over that can destroy the coils.

Was this a used computer you had installed?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

The computer is a referb. I can connect to it via evoscan software. I am not getting any error codes from the ecu. This is the same reason I replaced the ecu and this one is showing the same problems. Should I be getting voltage from the crankshaft sensor ground (brown wire) ?

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
I'm not worried about the operation of the computer, only if it is new/refurb or used.

You said earlier you had fuel injector pulse, that the ground wire was coming on and off as you cranked, is this still accurate? If it is, don't pay any attention to your crank sensor as the fuel injectors pulse when the crank sensor signal is good.

At the present time you have 12V at the two ignition coils when you turn the key on, ground at the two ignition coils at all times, and between 1 and 5 V on the trigger wire to the coils when you crank the engine.

Is this all accurate?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

the trigger wire is correct. between 1 and 5volts. the coil is not correct. I get between 1 and 3 volts on the coil plug.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Okay that is a big problem. The ignition coil should have direct 12V whenever the key is turned to on.
Can you please verify that fuse #1 in the in-dash fuse box, which is a 10A fuse, has 12V or if it has 1-3V there as well? Fuse #1 is the one in the lower left corner of the fuse panel, where the two rows of relays meet... it is the last one in that corner.

Thanks
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I got 12V on it.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Thanks.

At this point, unfortunately you are going to be pulling wiring as you have a fractured power wire to the coil.

The 12V from fuse #1 runs directly to each coil and the only way that you will have 12V at the fuse and less than 12V at the coil is if the wiring is damaged. The wiring does have splices in it that can weaken as well, they are buried in the harness so you will be opening up the harness either way.

I am attaching a diagram of the wiring so you can see there is nothing to drop voltage between the fuse and the coil except a wiring problem:
graphic

Correct the voltage drop to the coils and your spark will return. All other things being equal, the engine will then run since you have compression and fuel pulse etc.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I got the same voltage on both sides.Is there a common wire between the pair?


 

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Yes, look at the wiring diagram I provided and you will see they join together when they enter the harness. I would be suspicious of this splice and anything between that and the splice where the feed goes to other items just off the fuse area.

I will be stepping out for lunch, but will be back shortly if you need more assistance. Thanks
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


ok I found the splice for the black/white wire any idea on the black? I am under the fuse box under the hood that is where I I found the black/white

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
You only need to be concerned with the Black/White wire.
At the splice, do you have 12V or 1-3V?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


1 to 3V . The splice looks good.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Alright, you need to keep going back then. As you saw in the wiring diagram, it is just a straight run of wire from the fuse to the coils. If you have 12V at the fuse and 1-3V at the coils, there is a break between them or a seriously fractured/stretched wire etc. Since you see you have 1-3V at the splice, you are going to need to keep moving rearward until you find 12V on that wire, then move out until you have 1-3V again and repair the breach when you locate it.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I got it tested to the 2nd split. A white wire connector under the dash. I then loose the wire.This wire should go behind the fuse block on the 10 amp fuse? I have tested good from the split to the end of the coil connector.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX have 1-3V at the splice marked S096 on the schematic, or at the connector in the dash?

If the connector at the dash, is it a 8 pin connector, a massive 38 pin connector with 4 rows of staggered wires, or a 26 pin connector with just two rows of wires?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

maybe 8 it does not have many wires coming off of it.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I found the 38 pin connector is that the location of the other end of the wire? It plugs in the back of the fuse panel

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
The 38 pin connector has the wire on it at pin 15, and is a large junction connector. It may have a plastic lever that locks the two halves of the connectors together.

The 26 pin two row connector is where it exits the fuse panel, it is illustrated here:
graphic
Look for the Black/White stripe wire on pin 10.

If you have 1-3V at the connector on the fuse panel, there is a break inside the fuse panel.

If you have 12V at the connector, I would go to the 38 pin connector and open the latch to separate the two halves, then push it back together and lock it down and check for 12V again (either at the coils, the splice, etc).
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

The diagram you sent does not look like nothing I see. I am looking at a big white box with wires attached and it plugs in under the fuse area. is your picture the back side if the fuse box? how can I remove it to look behnd it?

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
No, The picture is looking through the fuse panel door.
Pull the panel off the drivers end of the dash board, it will have a small pocket to grab and pull forward.

With the panel removed you will see the fuse and relay panel I posted the picture from.
The highlighted box and the ones below it (and the two near the top above the fuses) are all electrical connectors, the wires are just not shown in the illustration so that you can see the plug configuration.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Ok I got 12v behind the fuse the 20 amp. Do you have a good diagram of the fuse box you can send me so I can make sure I am on the right on?
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
What exactly are you doing? Did you check the wire where it exits the electrical connector I indicated on the fuse panel?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I removed the fuse and checked I so not see a block that looks like yours
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Can you just take a picture of your fuse panel? It would make things go smoother, as you really need to check at the location I indicated and I can show you the location on your vehicle that way.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX go:
graphic
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Ok I can tone the wire out all the way to the coil pack can I check for power on the front side?
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
We don't want to continuity test the wire, that won't tell us anything as we know we have continuity since you have 1-3V.

You need to probe the front of that connector shown in the previous two pictures, hitting the Black/White stripe wire on pin 10 and check the voltage level with the key on.
You must do this as it will tell you if the breach is inside the fuse panel or in the wiring between the fuse panel and the last point you checked in the harness moving rearward.

I know it is a tight fit even after loosening the fuse panel, but you need to do this.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Ok I got 12v on it so I am going to back trace it
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Correct.


If you have 12V on that connector that is very good news... it means you don't need a fuse panel.

Like I mentioned before, from here I would strongly recommend going to the 38 pin connector with the lever on it and unplugging it then re-seating the connector and checking operation. It is possible for this connector to come loose over time and cause weird things like this.

If there is no change after reseating the 38 pin connector, check the connector for 12V on the same black/white stripe wire on pin 15.
If you have 1-3V here, you know your problem is between that connector and the one in the fuse panel.
If you have 12V there, then you know the problem is between the 38 pin connector and the last point you checked in the engine bay section of the harness. At that point I would put focus on where the wires go through the frame, they are known to weaken there.

If you have any questions just let me know.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I am done for the night! But how do you get the plate off between the frame for the harness ?
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Can you clarify what you mean?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
The plate that connects to the body with the harness in it that connects the outside wire to the inside
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
I would have to see the section you are talking about. The only one that comes to mind is the big black section that just pushes through (it has a channel around the perimeter that the frame metal sits in).
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


The first picture is of the block. is ths the one you are talking about?


 


and the second picture is of the plate i was talking about.


Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Yes, that rubber section where the harness goes through the firewall just pushes through, then snaps into position when pushing it back in.

Just remember to check that 38 pin connector we discussed and trying re-seating it first, and if there is no change, then test for 12V at the connector first. If you find 1-3V at that connector you know the problem is between that connector and the fuse panel.

If the problem is after the 38 pin connector, it is more likely to be outside the passenger compartment unless there is some reason to suspect the interior (recent dash removal, accessory electronics, etc)
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


is the first picture the 38 pin connector? I want to make sure I got it,

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
It's really close and blurry, but it looks a lot like it.

To help out, here is what the pin configuration looks like:

graphic
I tried to find a good picture of the connector but can't find the one I took last time I had to test here. Just remember it will likely have a locking lever that is a rectangular lever that wraps around it and locks the two ends together.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I got it. Do I test the male side or female? And do you by chance have a PIN number?
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
When it is connected, whichever is easiest for you. Obviously if it is disconnected you need to check the fuse panel side, not the side leading through the firewall.

The pin number is XXXXX and is still black with a white stripe for the wire.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I found it. I toned it out no power on the male side. The fuse side
Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
If you have the 1-3V on the fuse panel side of the 38 pin connector, then you have a break between that connector and the wire we tested on the front of the fuse panel.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

is there a way to take the 38pin connector loose from the car? I need to get behind it. I am almost 100% sure that is the problem spot. Oh BTW you are the best!

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
There is no easy way. You are best to reach and tug and contort etc. The connector is integral to the harness, and you would be pulling the dashboard, etc, before you got "comfortable" access.
As I mentioned before these are common to come loose, but typically re-ratcheting the lock corrects most issues. On occasion I have had to gently bend the problematic pins so that they are tighter when connected.... use extreme caution if you do this though. If you bend to far and/or damage them in any way, you are buying a complete harness.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

ok I was wrong I was on the wrong pin on the 38 pin connector.I was on the wrong one.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

it had no power on the pin

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
If there is no power on the pin at the 38 pin connector, you likely have the wrong pin. You would expect to see either 12V or 1-3V like you saw past the connector, not less than both.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


ok. I will double check. it is hard getting your head in there! do you happen to have a good fuse diragram for this? I would like to double check the fuse as well. Everyone is working just maybe it was put back in the wrong place? Thanks Doug. you have been a life saver!

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Can you elaborate on what you need for the fuse diagram? The fuse locations, fuse numbers, or internal diagram or?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.


all the above so I can make sure I got them all seated in the correct location. I checked again on the correct pin. I had to use a mirror and I got no power.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Something is definitely amiss then. The pin you are testing matches the black/white stripe wire and the pin location aligns with the pin location in the numbered diagram I provided before?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

The wire I am testing is in this area. the 1st picture is the front end of the connector that plugs into it the 2nd is the back in I am testing


Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
That explains a lot.... wrong connector. That's a 28 pin, we want the large 38 pin with counter lever.

Look again at the diagram of the pin layout:
graphic
It is a much larger connector than you have pictured, located behind and slightly above the fuse panel, accessed from below with your head by the brake pedal etc. The two connectors attached will be roughly 4" cube.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I am sorry it is really hard to do this by the computer. I am going back to this picture to had me check behind. I have no power on the pin.


Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Ohhh, you are saying there is no power at the fuse panel connector? I'm sorry I didn't realize we went back there.
You are checking with it plugged in right? You can not check this pin with it unplugged or your results will be incorrect... you must check voltage with it plugged in to the fuse panel.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

so I plug it in and test from the back of the female plug correct? This is the fuse I was talking about. Is there a fuse that powers the black/white wire?

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Yes there is a fuse that powers it and we checked that a long time ago. You can ONLY check the wire on that connector at the fuse box when it is plugged in. If it isn't plugged in, there is no way it would get any power so testing it unplugged is useless.

You said before that you had tested it and had 12V, which means you need to move on the 38 pin connector as I have told you before.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I was on the wrong pin when I had 12V. Keep with me I will edit the price backout. ok. now something new. When I plugged the meter on the black/white wire it starts at 5V and slowly counts down to 0.

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
That certainly isn't right.

So when you are sure you are on the correct pin of the connector near the bottom of the fuse panel, you have little to no voltage?

Double check that fuse in the lower corner of the fuse panel, where the two rows of relays converge. Check the voltage on both pins of this fuse with the key on.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

buddy. I got it running! wow! I found the wire under the dash! you are the man. If I have anymore problems can I request you to help?


 

Expert:  Doug C. replied 2 years ago.
Fantastic!

We knew it was down there, just a matter of finding it!

I am glad we stuck it out together and got it sorted. If you need anything else please just let me know.
If you would like to deal with my specifically in the future, just put "For Doug" in your opening question to have it directed to me and I will get with you as soon as I am available/at work.
Doug C., ASE Certified Technician
Category: Mitsubishi
Satisfied Customers: 6502
Experience: Mitsubishi employed and Factory trained ASE certified technician
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