Hi,

If you are getting soaked plugs, then the immobilizer is a non-issue.... the immobilizer simply grounds the injectors to prevent them from operating, which they clearly are if you are flooding the plugs.

Please try these things for me:

Disconnect MAF sensor and attempt to start the car (this will set a code to clear later)
Use a pair of pliers and clamp off the fuel rail return line and attempt to start the car

Let me know if either has any effect.

Thanks.

Do you have the ability to check the fuel pressure? The connection at the fuel rail is proprietary and not likely you will have access to anything that will work there, however the fuel pump connection is rather standard japanese quick-connect.

Wow that's quite high, however with no start from ether we can walk away from that one right now.

You are certain you are getting good spark from the accessible plugs?

Thanks.

Consistency is key. If the spark is barely noticeable and inconsistent there is more worry. It sounds like it is fairly consistent though. The only slight concern would be if the plugs have been considerably fouled from flooding this will hinder ignition.

As you probably know, there are three things we need to get the engine running; compression, fuel, correctly timed ignition.
Using ether as a fuel substitute with no improvement we can assume fuel is not related. With the high compression we certainly want to believe that is not an issue either.
The ignition is system has several tells that indicate proper operation... namely, if the crank sensor is not working, there will be no spark or fuel pulse; if the crank reluctor is out of time, it should throw a cam/crank correlation error, same as if the belt timing were off.

So we are in a bit of a corner here as far as normal failures go, as everything seems to be checking out adequately. While there can be external factors to send the computer into a fit, they are not too common.

Just to be clear, the intake hose between the throttle body and the MAF has remained installed at all times during testing, is that correct?
I know the compression tested out OK, but have you checked the belt timing, at least on the easy-access bank?

Thanks.

Make sure the intake hose remains installed any time you try to start the vehicle. While seemingly insignificant, it will result in a no start condition or at least a barely running condition if it is left off. This is because the MAF reads the vacuum pulled from the engine while cranking/running and is used for fuel control.... detached = no air drawn across the MAF = very messed up fueling.

The timing belt being at 120k and not replaced, I have a hard time believing the problem is anything but that... however if we have proper alignment and proper rotation (belt isn't stripped out), it shouldn't be an issue.... I am assuming the belt does turn when cranking of course.

Those alignment checks are fine, no issue there as far as alignment goes... the forward cam notch being aligned, the crank aligned to 0 and the rear cam aligned to #1 are all sufficient.... the only question I have on that is this:
With the rotor aligned to #1 on the distributor cap, is it aligned to the #1 or the post that leads to #1?
On this cap the plug wire connections do not all directly correspond to the contacts behind them. This is so that the wires can be organized split by bank and not be a spaghetti mess. Now honestly I can not remember which contacts are re-routed, but several are. You can look at the back side of your old cap to see if #1 is actually #1 underneath or if it is re-routed.

SO... if that was clear, my question is: Is the rotor pointing to the #1 contact?

Hi,

So just so I am clear... was it routed incorrectly and now re-routed? I am not clear on what transpired there.

Oh okay great.

This should be a non issue considering the lack of fire with ether, but can you check one of the fuel injectors and confirm you are getting a pulse while cranking... the 12V is constant with the key on, the ground is pulsed.

That is more than sufficient... if you are getting light across the injectors when cranking, then you know the 12V is good (it doesn't change between key on and cranking). It should not have been an issue anyway since ether did not help, I am just trying to widdle this down some more.

I am quite impressed with this one to say the least.

We have no fuse failures,we have spark, we have fuel and we have compression/verified timing.... there really isn't too much to work with here. The ether not helping is the real kicker, as the only really reasonable explanations left would be bad gas, etc... which of course the ether rules out.

If the throttle is fully opened while cranking, do you get any popping or any activity at all from the engine?

On a whim here, do you have a scan tool that reads live data?

Thanks.
Sounds like you have already checked out some of my main interests... specifically the coolant temperature reading and MAF reading. Running low on options, I was curious if maybe the vehicle is just flooding like nobodies business.

I would not be concerned with HG issues as you would likely have a serious compression loss which isn't apparent right now.

Vacuum leak crossed my mind, which is why I asked about keeping the throttle wide open and it having any effect. The problem with it being a vacuum leak is there is nothing that could happen in an instant that would cause that large of a leak to prevent the engine from running or at least choking a bit.

My thoughts were similar on cutting fuel... pulling one relay is sufficient, they are wired in series.
I would pull one (make note of the location, they are often accidentally put back in the wrong spot after removal), then remove the three accessible plugs clean then with brake cleaner and a gentle wire brush, let them air out for a while and then reinstall them. Then try starting the car with ether.

Thanks.

As far as a bad cam sensor/distributor goes? I've seen that a grand total of zero times since I've been with Mitsubishi. I have seen our parts department order them once or twice for other shops, however they typically try to return them afterward.... they just don't really fail.

Clean the plugs up and disconnect the fuel (pull a relay) and then try the ether, just in case it is flooding the engine out. When it is being attempted with ether you can have the intake hose off, as the ether is combustible enough that it won't really matter, plus the fuel supply is disconnected anyway. The intake hose needs to be attached any time you are trying to start the vehicle under it's own means however... if it is off at either end (any opening between the throttle and the MAF, including tears in the hose) it will prevent normal running.
Again for the sake of cutting fuel pump power and using ether, it is not a concern in that specific circumstance.

PCM is not a likely issue provided the Service Engine Soon light is coming on when you turn the key on and you are communicating with your scan tool (even if there are no codes). If the PCM was down, you wouldn't have spark or fuel pulse because the reference voltage to the crank sensor would be missing.

No problem... I wouldn't be too concerned over testing the distributor further. I know it sounds bad, but if you are getting spark it is probably OK, especially with no codes pending. If I had seen even a few cases of distributor failure I'd reconsider, they just don't typically go bad though.

If we have fuel delivery and our belt timing is definitely dead on and our spark timing is correct (perhaps a check with a timing light on #4 would be in order.... though keep in mind the electronic advance), I can't see much else short of an over fueling issue perhaps, which we could try to rule out with the disabled fuel pump and running ether.

I must say there aren't many things that make me scratch my head, but this is a strange one to say the least.

Thanks.

That is a bit promising, we may be on to something with the flooding issue. Whether or not it is our primary issue remains to be seen, but getting it to fire a few times after airing it out certainly tells us something.

I am more concerned about the standing fuel in the cylinder than anything. That is a lot of fuel dumping for that to occur. You might want to check the dipstick and make sure you don't have a gallon of fuel in there.

If you have a straw for the ether can, try sneaking it past the intake hose so that the intake hose can be roughly installed and see if you get any better result that way.

Thanks.

The VIC is just a second set of throttle plates in the intake on the GTS models. At rest these are closed (spring loaded closed, the motor has to operate to open them), so no risk of that affecting the situation any. FYI, don't try to remove the VIC motor, it is not meant to be removed and can be a bit of a pain reinstalling correctly.

I know this should be a non-issue, but no risk of the plug wires being mixed up at all after cap replacement?
This should be a non-issue as well, but just because I don't think I specifically asked: In addition to the timing belt being lined up right... it is rotating when the engine is cranked right?

The wires aren't installed in firing order though, right? They are installed by the numbered marks on the cap correct?

Okay fair enough.

I'm just trying to think of anything simple that could over looked here.
.
Again we have compression and belt timing, spark and manually supplied fuel.... it should run.

If the wires are OK, lets get a timing light on #4 and see where the crank mark is showing up when cranking the engine and compare it to your advance reading on the scan tool.

Thanks.

#1 and #4 fire at the same time in crank rotation, so you will get the same reading as on #1. The crank trigger has three blades, one for cylinders 1/4, one for 2/5 and one for 3/6.

If you can get it on #1 that is fine, I just figured #4 would be infinitely easier.

Yes we want to see what the advance looks like... anywhere from 0 to 20 would probably be acceptable considering we are only getting cranking speed. I am just curious if it is way out like the reluctor spun. This should cause a P0335/340, however if the engine never reaches near operating speed it may not be setting.

I'm grasping real hard for something probable here, I don't want to give up on you.... I'm sure it is something typical that is being overlooked, I'm just having a hard time thinking of anything we are missing here.

I am here more or less daily, so we can pick up whenever. The site may send you reminders (They may even look like they are from me), but you can just ignore them... if they aren't posted on this page like the post you are reading now, then they are automated. Just disregard them until you are ready to return.

Thanks.

The key should not be an issue... it will only cause the injectors to ground out if it immobilizes... if you are getting injector pulse, that isn't it (plus ether would have started it).

That is an interesting thought on the distributor, but it would be very difficult to confirm without another distributor... and with them costing several hundred dollars I don't want to aim you that direction as I don't feel it would be enough to kill the engine entirely if we still have valid spark.

Don't worry about the key on reading on the timing, that is not too strange. It advances more when off for a fast spark on cranking to start the engine quicker... it doesn't care about emissions/economy if it means starting the engine 1-2 seconds faster.

The plugs are definitely not a good thing, but should be OK for just getting it to fire a bit... it would run poorly but would run if the plugs were just bad.

What gets me the most is the not running when ether is used and the fuel system disabled. This really only allows a spark timing or belt timing/compression issue. Your compression is dead on for the three you checked, and even if the other three were flat we should still get an occasional hiccup. The ignition timing seems to be dead on.

I am real hesitant to tell you to compression check the back bank, as it is a ton of work getting to it on the VIC model. Further, with the timing appearing correct, this would really narrow down our causes for failure (non belt related valve damage or gasket failure... neither that common).

Just for fun, lets pull those forward three plugs again and rig them all up so that we can watch them spark and make sure you are getting consistent spark across all of them... for example not just one or randomly dropping in and out etc.

Hi,

The only major vacuum problem I could see would be if the purge solenoid for the evaporative system was wide opened. I have seen these fail where they draw vacuum when they should be shut, effectively putting the gas tank into a dangerous vacuum... when this happens a mass of fume/air gets pulled into the engine.

You could try removing and plugging the two vacuum lines to the purge solenoid.... it is the larger solenoid on the intake with the ~3/8-1/2" size hoses (the EGR is the one with washer hose sized hoses). The same could be done for the EGR, though it should not be able to prevent it from even choking a bit.

If you feel comfortable buying a distributor we can certainly try it. I don't feel it will be it, since we have decent spark and it is timed well, but it is a possibility... that would be great if I am wrong :)

We certainly will need to change all of the plug regardless, as they are surely fouled beyond normal recovery at this point, but I would like to figure out the issue before we do that. We don't want to insert any new potential problems before figuring this one out (if something goes wrong with plenum installation causing more issues etc).

Again I'm hesitant to consider the compression test as necessary at this point since we know the rear cam is timed right by inspecting the crank position and rotor position as well as watching spark timing.... the odds of a valve failure without belt failure are slim, as are the odds of a head gasket failure without any other warning signs.

Thanks. This is not likely to be related. The P0401 is indicating a short circuit/open circuit on the EGR solenoid circuit... this is extremely common on this vehicle and can be driven this way. The P0401 is indicating there is insufficient EGR activation, it is not opening properly.... which of course we know would be the case since the solenoid is electrically failed. The P403 always comes shortly after the P0401. Neither should affect starting.

The purge solenoid hoses on the other hand are at least worth investigating.

Hi,

The only issue with a major air leak causing a no start would be either a pre-vacuum leak (intake hose removed) or a fume leak (purge solenoid stuck open allowing engine to suck fuel vapor).
Any other vacuum leak would not only be fairly difficult to cause a no-start condition (apart from if it was the result of disassembly, which isn't the case here), but also it would be able to be rectified by adding ether to compensate.

I can't help but think something is being over looked here....if we have belt timing and compression, we have spark in time, and we have fuel delivery or manual fuel supply, there really isn't any reason why it shouldn't at least cough/choke when cranked with ether, if not run.

I assume no new codes have been set at all?
The only thing further I could see we could do is pull down the front end and verify 100% the crank timing mark and reluctor plate are positioned correctly, as well as the front of the back cam. While issues here should throw a P0335/340, I just don't see any other realistic possibilities based on the information you have provided.... I don't see the rear bank getting the valves wiped out enough to cause this condition without the belt being out of time etc.

One tooth would be enough to run very poorly, two teeth would prevent running in most cases.

Can you get the rear bank front cover off for an accurate inspection? Ideally I would prefer to see all three marks just to be certain, though I know this is a bit of work going that deep, I'm not sure how far you want to go.

Okay as long as we got a P0335, we have something to work with there.... provided you didn't unplug it at any point, this is a strong indicator of either a belt alignment issue or a faulty crank sensor.

Okay, then we are back to square one and wanting to see that belt alignment on the front to verify it is intact.

Hi,

Perhaps... am I understanding right that with the tester installed it is not sparking on the Eclipse at all, but when checking the plugs manually on the engine you get a minor spark?

If this is right, then you may be on to something. Specifically I would be considering the coil in the distributor maybe being weak.

Make sure your battery is in OK shape as well though, if the battery is weak your spark will weaker too.

Lets try that before jumping to conclusions.

If it is consistent with no spark on the tester and weak spark on the plugs, I would be most concerned with a damaged crank sensor followed by the distributor... the distributor second due to it passing the resistance checks. The crank sensor is a transistor and not really able to be checked with any efficiency short of using an oscilloscope.

The crank sensor will only throw a code if either there is an open circuit (transistor burnt out) or if there is an extended period of rotating with a correlation issue between it and the cam sensor (distributor).


With no consistent spark on the tester, the ideal next step would be to monitor the crank sensor output with an oscilloscope, checking to verify it is hitting a hard/clean 5V square wave. If it was, I would then try another distributor. Normally I would jump straight to just replacing the crank sensor, however because you are getting weak spark, that is a bit of an odd one and I would much rather visually inspect the crank output since the spark isn't missing altogether when using normal plugs.

My only issue with the distributor is that they almost never fail, whereas the crank sensors are borderline regular maintenance on these cars, especially if aftermarket ones are used (aftermarket ones are common to last less than a year, I have even seen brand new ones not work). Based on the weak output though.... it could be one for the books.

Unfortunately not.

The problem is that testing a transistor in static condition doesn't really tell you much.

With a 9 hertz reading while cranking, we can assess that the engine is spinning about 180rpm, which is quite slow (around 300+ would be normal)... that is about all you know though.
A square wave reading is really necessary to verify it is good. That way you see peak voltage, voltage duration, and any anomalies in the wave. A meter isn't going to accomplish that. At best you will be able to see peak voltage.

Hey, that's great!

With the amount of attempted starting that has occurred, the smoking is not surprising at all, there is probably a decent amount of raw fuel in the converters that will need to burn out.
I'm surprised that the coil was so significantly weak with only a few hundred ohms being a small fraction below test specification, but once you verified that the spark was too weak to work the tester, it was a sure thing of being either the distributor or the crank sensor.

Get some fresh oil in there and give it a few miles to burn out the exhaust and let me know how it does.

Hi Joe....

We're all set, our system seems to be shooting out emails erroneously right now, you can disregard them if they ask/say you need to come back.... it should be corrected shortly.

Thanks for your understanding.