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Kenny Z.
Kenny Z., Senior Master Tech
Category: Mercury
Satisfied Customers: 5235
Experience:  Mercury Senior Master Technician
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1997 Mercury Sable LS 3.0 DOHC V-6 automatic transmission.

Customer Question

1997 Mercury Sable LS 3.0 DOHC V-6 automatic transmission. 125k miles. Will crank but will not start. Will run on starting fluid.
-good battery
-good starter
-new fuel pump
-new spark plugs and wires
-good compression
-fuel pressure at 40psi when given voltage
-12 volts checked at fuelinjectors
-no signal at fuel injectors (checked with noid light)
-EEC box replaced, no change
-ECM replaced with known good unit, no change
-fuel pump not priming
-no trouble codes found
Submitted: 4 months ago.
Category: Mercury
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Hello and welcome! My name is ***** ***** I can assist you with your question. Have you checked injector pulse using a noid light while cranking? Does the noid light blink while cranking?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I stated that in the question, I checked injector pulse with a noid light while cranking. It does not blink.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Thank you for that information. Sorry I missed that part. What is the TPS voltage at key on engine off and while cranking?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
5 volts key on engine off amd 5 volts while cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

NO, I am talking about the signal voltage. Not the reference voltage

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

The reason I ask is because you might just have a bad throttle position sensor.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Maybe I'm checking the wrong wires? There are 3 wires. I get 5 volts for the reference voltage and 4 volts for the other key on engine off and cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

I do believe it will be the gray and white wire. You will need to have the key turned ON, connector plugged into the TPS and back problem the gray/white wire to get a reading.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
grey and white wire had 1.0 volts key on engine off and 1.3 volts while cranking. The wire is back probed while harness is plugged in. Grey with white wire is middle wire in the harness.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Is the throttle plate closed all of the way?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I believe so, yes.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Normal closed throttle voltage of the TP sensor should indicate 0.6-1.1 volts. If the throttle plate is open or if the signal is too high when cranking, the PCM will put the engine in clear flood mode and it will not pulse the injectors. Was the TPS replaced? How about the PCM?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
TPS and PCM are original, a known good PCM was installed same part numbers and everything. But there was no change. The TPS voltage doesn't seem that high out of the indicated range. The fuel pump won't prime as it is suppose to if that helps you. It only turns on for a split second when the key is turned on.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

If your sure that the 5 volt reference is not shorted to ground, I would suspect a faulty input to the PCM. Did you check the powers and grounds?

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

If not, that would be your next step.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I'm pretty certain that it is not shorted to ground. Otherwise I would get 5 volts would I? No I haven't checked power to grounds. How can I do that and where are the grounds? I don't have access to wiring diagrams and whatnot.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

You can check the powers and grounds right at the PCM. I can send this information over shortly

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

The red wire going into pin 71 and dark green/orange wire going into pin 55 should have FULL battery voltage on them with the key on.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Both of those have 12.65 volts with the key on
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Would you be willing to speak on the phone?

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

I think this would be easier over the phone.. but there is an additional cost.

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

So no injector pulse and no power to the fuel pump while cranking.. correct?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Correct no injector pulse and no power to fuel pump while cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Was the CCRM replaced?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Is the CCRM the same as the EEC box?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

I dont believe so. It is the contsant control relay module. Do you have power on the red wire going to the idle air control motor with the key on and cranking?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I just did a search for it and it looks like the box that I did replace so yes I belive it's the same. I can't check that sensor right now as it is storming pretty bad here. But I will check it as soon as possible.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Ok no problem. In addition, if that checks out good, I want to see if the gray/red wire has power on it coming out of the CCRM with the engine cranking over.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok I will check that too. I will let you know asap.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Sounds good

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Thanks
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Your welcome

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I have power at the red wire on the IAC sensor. There are 2 grey with red wires coming out of the CCRM. One has 12v key on and whole cranking. The other has no volts key on and about 0.3 volts while cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

I suspect thats our problem. Both need to have power leaving the CCRM when cranking provided I am reading the diagram correctly. Keep in mind, it needs to have the correct powers going into it in order to work.

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

There should be 6 wires going into the CCRM that have FULL battery voltage with the KEY ON

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok well I guess I need to check all of those wires and can you show me a picture of the part we are talking about so that we are on the same page please.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

You want a picture of the CCRM?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
please, and also what wires I should be checking for power
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Here is a pic of the CCRM

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

2 Dark blue wires, Orange wire, 2 Dark green/orange wires, and the white/light blue wire should all have battery FULL battery voltage on them with the key on.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
that's what I thought it was.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Checking the inputs is going to be the next step.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
All of those wires have 12.3 volts with the key on.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Ok sounds good. Thank for checking for me. Was the CCRM replaced? It might just be bad..

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I did try a new one from the local auto parts store it made no changes.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Ok then you will need to figure out why that wire coming out of the CCRM does not have power on it while cranking

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok how do I do that, it was one of the gray wires I belive.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Try powering up that wire gray/red wire leaving the CCRM on pin 5 and see if the fuel pump comes up.

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I will see if I can do that when I get back home I will let you know as soon as I can.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

OK

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I put power to pin number 5 and the fuel pump powers on
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
now what can we try?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Hello and sorry for the delay! Does the engine start and run when you power up pin number 5 at the CCRM?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
No it did not start and run when I supplied power to pin number.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Ok, thank you for that information. The next step is to check all other inputs to the CCRM with the key on and while cranking.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok if you could send me all that information I will check those first thing in the morning and report back with what I find.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Ok I will have to do some digging and post this information here in the morning.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok sounds good, thank you very much I appreciate it greatly.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

You are welcome!

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Just a heads up! I will have to do some digging monday morning and reply back then as my findings need to be during normal business hours. Talk to you monday!

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Hello and sorry for the delay! Can you tell me if the PCM is activating the fuel pump relay when turning the key on or when cranking?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hi that's ok, I don't think it is because the fuel pump does not prime when the key is turned on.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Right, thats what I want to see. The PCM is responsible for this. But you said it was replaced?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
It was replaced with a known good one out of a running vehicle same part numbers as what was in the vehicle originally.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

And is it installed in the vehicle?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
The original is installed in the vehicle, are there some wires that I can check coming from the pcm to see if it is powering the fuel pump and injectors the way it should.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

But you can still access all of the wires going into the CCRM. That where we need to check.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I have full access to check the wires going into the CCRM.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Then we need to check that light blue and orange wire for a signal when turning the key on and while cranking.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok how do I do that?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

With a voltmeter or a test light.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
What kind of voltage do I need to see there? 12 volts?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

IT should change from 12 volts to ground or from ground to 12 volts as the key is turned on.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok I will check that in a few minutes. Is there anything else I can check?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

YES please verify all of the powers going into the module again as well as all of the grounds.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Could you give me a list please.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

I would like you to check this and report back a to what you have found.

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Here is a complete wiring diagram of the CCRM

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Looks like everything checks out accept for pin 21 (green white wire) but it looks like that has to do with the ac clutch so that isn't the problem. I check every wire on the CCRM with a test light. They all came on with either power or ground attached.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

So what does the blue/orange wire have on it key on and cranking? Power or ground?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I will check that as soon as I can.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

ok

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
It had power. Test ligjt connected to ground and applied to wire light comes on and fuel pump powers up.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

So your saying that you grounded this wire and the fuel pump ran? Was the key on when you did this test?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Correct and yes when the key is on the fuel pump will run, however the car still will not start. I'm wondering where the fuel injectors get their signal from. It seems that the problem is that the fuel pump and the fuel injectors are not coming on as they should.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

The fuel injectors get a signal from the PCM.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Is there a way to check that, what do we check next where do we go from here?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

YES, you need a scan tool that can read live data to see if there is engine rpm while cranking.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I am getting approximately 150 rpm while cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Does the check engine light STAY ON or GO OFF while cranking?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Looks like it goes off while cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Are you sure about that?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I'm quite sure.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

The only other sensor that could cut off injector pulse while cranking that I am aware of would be a bad mass air flow sensor.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok how can we test that?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

You cant really test it if the engine is not running. I would just try a new one

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Or maybe disconnecting it.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok I will try it in the morning and let you know the results.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Are you sure the anti theft or security light is on on or flashing when trying to start the engine? No anti theft codes in the computer?

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

Have you tried using another ignition key?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
The theft is not on, nor does it ever illuminate. Also I only have one key.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

It should come on with the key on for a bulb check. Maybe the bulb is burned out

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
It's possible, or maybe it doesn't have anti theft? Is there a relearn procedure?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

NO, no relearn procedure. The PCM needs to ground that light blue/orange wire (that I had you test earlier) when the key is turned on. If not, the PCM is at fault or there is a security issue going on. Hands down.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
when I checked that wire it was grounded correct?
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
What does the anti theft system disable when it is triggered? Would I still be able to crank the car over. Or is it suppose to cut that out. Also does it turn off the fuel injectors and fuel pump or just the injectors?
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Also I just read that some 1997 ford taurus' did not come with a theft light. That would lead me to belive that I might not have one at all.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.

The dash should still have a theft light built into it. It should come on with the key on for a bulb check.

The PCM cuts the fuel pump and injectors when the anti theft is triggered.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Ok I will have to take the dash apart then and see if there is a bulb there. But what about what I read that some 1997s do not have anti theft system?
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Pulled the cluster, it does in fact have a theft bulb but it is an led or diode. So it is not burned out and there is no power that ever goes to that theft terminal which makes me believe that there is no theft system on this vehicle. I also unplugged the mass air flow and no change. Perhaps there is more wiring I can take a look at. It just seems everything coming in and going out of the CCRM checks out.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.
I agree. The problem is not the CCRM. I suspect it is a theft issue or the PCM installed may need to be programmed to allow it to run once it is installed.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I don't think it is a theft issue as there is no power that goes to the theft socket and the PCM is the original PCM that t he vehicle came with from the factory.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 months ago.
By now we are beating a dead horse. We can talk about this until we are blue in the face. I am going to leave this question open for other experts. Good luck!
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 4 months ago.

Hello, my name is***** and thanks for your question.

All 97 Sables came with passive anti - theft. If the led is dead then that issue needs to be addressed before anything else, most likely the cause of the entire problem. Start by checking fuses 23 and 10 in the interior fusebox for power on both sides key in the run position. If those fuses have power on both sides then I would replace the PATS module located behind the radio panel. After replacement the keys will need to be programmed at the dealer or by using the method below:

  • Insert an unprogrammed encoded key into the ignition lock and turn ignition switch to RUN. The THEFT indicator will begin flashing.
  • Follow this procedure three times: After 15 minutes of flashing, the THEFT indicator will extinguish. Within five minutes after the THEFT indicator has gone out, turn the ignition switch once to OFF for a second, then back to RUN. The THEFT indicator will resume flashing for another 15 minutes.
  • After the third time (at 45 minutes from start), the control module will erase all stored keys and memorize the unprogrammed key as valid. This key will now start the vehicle. Additional keys can be programmed using the Spare Key Programming procedure:
  • Cycle ignition switch from RUN to OFF with a programmed key.
  • Within 15 seconds after this cycle, insert a new encoded key into ignition switch and turn to RUN or START.
  • If programming is successful, the THEFT Indicator will illuminate for two seconds and the control module will enable the vehicle to start.
  • Repeat until all chosen keys have been programmed, up to 16 keys total.
  • If programming is not successful, the THEFT Indicator will:
    • Flash for one minute if no key code is received. The key is either damaged or is a non-encoded key. (Try a new key and start procedure over again.)
    • Flash for 15 minutes if key code is received yet vehicle is disabled. The key was not programmed successfully. Start procedure over again.
  • If programming is not successful, possibly the new key was not inserted within 15 seconds, all 16 key codes have been stored, or the key is a non-encoded key. If the key was not encoded or inserted within 15 seconds, repeat procedure.

If you are satisfied with your answer, please take a moment to rate my service as you see fit. Experts are not compensated without a positive rating. Providing a rating does not close the question, you can reply or ask additional questions without incurring further charges.

Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 4 months ago.

Passive Anti-Theft System (PATS) Control Module

Removal

  • Disconnect battery ground cable (14301). Refer to Section 14-01.

  • Remove integrated control panel. Refer to Section 12-03B.

  • Remove screw retaining passive anti-theft system control module to instrument panel (04320).

  • Disconnect electrical connector and remove passive anti-theft system control module.

Installation

  • Install passive anti-theft system control module. Tighten retaining screws to 3.4-4.8 Nm (30-42 lb-in).

  • Install an encoded ignition key (with correct vehicle mechanical key cut) into ignition switch and turn to RUN position to program the first key into control module using the 45 minute method.

  • To program additional keys, follow Spare Key Programming procedure as described.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello sorry for the delay, I do have power at fuse 10 and fuse 23 but I'm not sure why I would have to replace the pats module because I have power to a fuse. One of those fuses powers the CCRM so if it didn't have power then nothing would work. Also my led theft light is not bad I applied power to it and it lights up.
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 4 months ago.

It sounds like you have the problem under control and don't need expert advice. Though seeing that the pats led works when bypassed and both fuses that power the pats module have power has pretty much condemned the pats module in every way would lead me to replace it. If you want to continue down this road of replacing and substituting parts without any solid diagnosis then by all means continue on and best of luck!

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
what you are saying is if I had no power to fuses then the pats module is good? Also if I had a theft problem wouldn't the theft light be on? Also no parts have been replaced or substituted, these were suggestions from one of your experts on this site.
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 4 months ago.

If you had no power to the fuses then that would warrant further investigation as to why. You have a theft problem being that the light never works unless you jumper it. If the module has failed how can it light the light to indicate a problem?

Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 4 months ago.

new fuel pump
-new spark plugs and wires

EEC box replaced, no change
-ECM replaced with known good unit, no change

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
New fuel pump, new plugs and wires were done before I purchased the vehicle. The new CCRM and different ECU were the suggestions of an expert on this site. But back to the theft issue. Now I understand why you suspect the pats module being that it doesn't cycle itself with the key. Now we are on the same page. Is there a way that I can test the unit? Check wiring going in or coming out of it. I just hate to throw another part at it.
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 4 months ago.

See diagram at link below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/embbaxyg77ecijd/PATS.gif?dl=0

If you are satisfied with your answer, please take a moment to rate my service as you see fit. Experts are not compensated without a positive rating. Providing a rating does not close the question, you can reply or ask additional questions without incurring further charges.

Customer: replied 3 months ago.
Hello again and sorry for the long delay I have been out of town for sometime. I found 2 1997 Mercury Sables in good operating condition and 1 1997 Ford Taurus in good operation condition (starts, runs, drives) I checked to see if any of them had a theft light that illuminated at anytime. None of them did and they were all in operable condition. I did some digging once again and did find the culprit. It was a stretched wire leading to the CCRM. After making the repair all of the issues were resolved. Sorry but you did not fulfill my question and solve my problem. Next time perhaps might go better for you. But thanks for your insight anyways. Have a good one.
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 3 months ago.

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