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Andy
Andy, Technician
Category: Medium and Heavy Trucks
Satisfied Customers: 819
Experience:  International trucks, International, Maxxforce and Cummins engines, diagnostic, electrical, Hvac and refrigeration repairs
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Internation VT275 Hard starting

Customer Question

Internation VT275 Hard starting
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Medium and Heavy Trucks
Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Hi my name is XXXXX XXXXX I would like to try and help! Can we start with the last 8 digits of the vin number please?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


It is a 2006 Ford Cab over last 8 #7V434246

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Thanks for info! Will look up for you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


when I say air test we are blowing shop air through the hole in the valve cover (icp) and air is leaking out of one oc the pump ports behind the gear, we replaced the stc fitting as we thought it was the air we heard , tested again before we put the cover on and found the air leak at the pump

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
I will try and find you our hard start /no start troubleshooting chart for this engine !
Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.


Title: Engine starts when
cold but not when it warms up. Diagnosing an Injection Control Pressure (ICP)
system leak on the VT365 and VT275 engine DTC 333 335

Applies To: Model:
International VT-365 and VT-275 2004-2006 Engines








Symptoms:

Starts OK Cold won't start hot.


Stalls hot


Low ICP Pressure hot


DTC 333- Injection Control Pressure above/below desired level
DTC 335
-ICP unable to build pressure during crank

Problem:


Engine starts when cold but
not when it warms up can be caused by an Injection Control Pressure (ICP) system
leak on the VT-365 engine and how should I diagnose it?




Resolution:
TSI 05-12-07 goes into detail how to check and define the
actual cause of low ICP on the VT-365 engine.
Use of this procedure will clearly define the leak location.
Also reference AFC 08908R High Pressure Pump Snap to Connect Fitting
Update

When a fitting and adapter leaks on the high
pressure pump, the technician can easily hear the leak while pressurizing the
ICP system with air. When the turbocharger is removed, the leak is heard at the
turbocharger drain tube.



  1. Pressurize the ICP system with shop air (at least 100 psi).
  2. Leave the shop air on the ICP system until a leak is heard at the
    turbocharger drain tube (this will be the IPR, STC fitting or the Branch Tube
    leaking).
  3. Disconnect the IPR and leave the engine harness disconnected.
  4. Install the IPR breakout tee and energize the IPR with 12 volts and
    ground.
  5. The leak should disappear when the IPR is energized, if not there
    is a very good possibility the fitting and adaptor are leaking.
  6. It is highly unlikely that the Branch tube is leaking. If it is leaking it will be the result of a
    crack at the brass weld area of the tube to fitting block.

While performing the STC fitting replacement the
technician may find that the branch tube is bent out of position such that the
male STC fitting and branch tube adapter does not mate evenly with the branch
tube block. Under normal conditions its
acceptable to bend the tube back into position with a screwdriver rather than
replace it unnecessarily. Carefully pry
the branch tube block back into position so the branch tube adapter lines up
with the branch tube block and the mounting bolts can be installed. Complete the repair by tightening the adapter
bolts and pressure testing the ICP system again to verify that the leak has been
fixed.


TSI 05-12-07 https://evalue.internationaldelivers.com/service/tsis/051207.htm



When replacing the Snap to Connect Fitting
(STC) use the New One Piece Fitting Kit (OPF) 1879930C91


The OPF replaces the STC fitting with bracket. Do not reuse
bolts.


PARTS:











QuantityPart NumberDescription
11879930C91ICP One Piece Fitting Kit
Includes:
OPF ( One
Piece Fitting with Jam Nut and O-Ring )
2 Bolts (M6 x 30) Flange Head Fiting
to Adapter
3 Bolts (M8 x 55) Torx - Pump Mounting
Gaskets and
O-rings
Installation Instructions
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
As I said we replaced the fitting, the leak is from the pump itself one of the ports behind the drive gear not the fitting
Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
And if you put 12 v to the ipr , does the leak go away? That would be normal.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


no same thing with or without power, and we replaced the ipr , why would air come from the port on the pump itself

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvjip0mh2xxhyu7/vt275%20hard%20start%20no%20start.pdf?m

 

 

Here is a link to a hard start /no start guide book for the vt 275 engine ! It states around page 35 all the possible leaks in the high pressure injection system. The pump housing is indeed listed in the list of possibilities ! I woould replace the pump ! Hope this book helps you !

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Waited for a response as long as I could need truck so I replaced the pump this afternoon , still starts hard, now new ipr, new snap to connect fitting, new pump, new ice sensor. The book and the other links you sent earlier do not come up
Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Just wondering were you able to open up the second link that I sent you?
Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Hi there ! Just wondering where we are with this problem ! Were you able to open the second link I sent you ? It shows you a list of all the possible leak areas and how to test for them !
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


The truck is out on deliveries we are 3/4 of the way through the diagnostics (for the second time) as we had done these all ready, we have not had any new information , as I said we have replaced the high pressure pump , which came with a new stc fitting, ( which we replaced before) new icp , checked all wiring and plugs, still cranks a while before it will start

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Just wondering if you were able to get the 2nd link I sent you to open up ? Also , is your electric fuel pump working ? Truck would still start and run but would be hard starting and would run but not the best !
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


truck came back still starts hard when hot and not great when cold. We put a pressure gage in the low oil pressure galley and found it takes a while to build oil pressure, we removed and replaced the low oil pressure regulator , still no change , we then replaced the oil pump gear set and the pump cover still no change. How much oil pressure should the gage show when cranking and how long should it take to get to full pressure and how much is full pressure. Our thought is the low oil pump is not feeding the hpop fast enough to fire.

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
I found this authorized field change that talks about case to head tubes and plug D-ring seal deterioration in that can eventually lead to hard start and no start conditions due to lack of high oil pressure to power to fuel injectors.
Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.

SUBJECT

VT 275 and MaxxForce 5 Case to Head Tube and Plug D-Ring Seal Deterioration

APPLIES
TO


Model:

Workhorse Start Date: 06/01/2004 End Date: 01/10/2008
Engine
Family: VT 275 MaxxForce 5


 

DESCRIPTION


REVISION DESCRIPTION


Plug Assembly (M12) part information added.


Step 36 after Figure 13 has been revised.



High pressure oil leakage internally within the engine can eventually lead to
no start and hard start conditions resulting from lack of high pressure oil to
power the fuel injectors.


 

PARTS
INFORMATION


















Parts Information

Part Number


Description


Quantity


(NNN) NNN-NNNN93

Case-to-head Tubes and Plugs Kit


1


(NNN) NNN-NNNN91

Plug Assembly (M12)


1




NOTE: There are a lot of graphics in this procedure. Please wait for them
to load. 13 graphics.


 

Service
Procedure




WARNING:


To prevent personal injury or death, make sure the
engine is in neutral or park, parking brake is set, and wheels are blocked
before doing diagnostic or service procedures on engine or vehicle.




WARNING:


To prevent personal injury or death, remove ignition
key or disconnect battery so engine can not be started while you are working on
the front of the engine.




WARNING:


To prevent personal injury or death, let a hot engine
cool sufficiently before doing diagnostic or service procedures.




WARNING:


To prevent personal injury or death, do not let engine
fluids stay on your skin. Clean skin and nails with hand cleaner and wash with
soap and water. Wash or discard clothing and rags contaminated with engine
fluids.




 

Remove Case to Head Tube


1. Open hood assembly.


2. Remove engine housing cover.


3. Remove air cleaner housing assembly.


4. Remove charge air cooler intake hose.


5. Remove oil filler tube.


6. Remove oil dipstick tube mount bolt from head.


7. Remove oil dipstick tube.


8. Disconnect Injection Control Pressure (ICP) sensor.


9. Remove Injection Control Pressure (ICP) sensor.


10. Remove high pressure turbocharger assembly crossover tube.


11. Remove engine lifting bracket (right rear).


12. Reposition engine wiring harness from on top of the valve cover.


13. Remove oil fill tube adapter from valve cover.


14. Remove right valve cover mount bolts (9 M6 x 35M bolts) (Figure 1).


15. Remove right valve cover from vehicle (Figure 2).




Figure 1. Valve Cover (Right
Shown)


 



Figure 2. Valve Cover Removal


 



Figure 3. High Pressure Oil
Rail (left Shown)


1.
High pressure oil rail (left)


2.
Rail port plug


3.
Case-to-head tube plug


4.
M6 x 40 bolt (7)




NOTE: Limited access prevents removing
case-to-head tube assemblies. Depending on how the assembly comes out, a service
tool in Figure 7 might have to be used to remove the tube held in the oil
manifold; or, if the tube and plug come out together, they will have to be
separated to complete removal.


16. Remove case-to-head tube plug and the rail port plug with a 10 mm hex bit
socket or wrench (Figure 4).



NOTE: On occasion, the case-to-head tube
(lower) will come out along with the case-to-head plug. If this occurs, discard
entire case-to-head tube assembly. Refer to case-to-head tube assembly (Figure
6).




Figure 4. Removing
Crankcase-to-Head Tube Plug (square head socket shown)


 



Figure 5. Crankcase-to-Head
Tube Plugs


1.
Hex socket


2.
Square socket




NOTE: The square socket identifies the
short crankcase-to-head tube plug. The hex socket identifies the longer
crankcase-to-head tube plug (with check valve).


 

NOTE: The square socket short
crankcase-to-head tube plug and crankcase-to-head tube assembly is not available
for service (Figure 7, Items 1 and 2; service with Items 3 and 4).





Figure 6. Crankcase-to-Head
Tube Assemblies


1.
Crankcase-to-head tube plug (short)


2.
Crankcase-to-head tube (used with Item 1)


3.
Crankcase-to-head tube plug (long - with check valve)


4.
Crankcase-to-head tube (used with Item 3)



 

17. Using the needed service tool (Figure 7), remove the crankcase-to-head
tube assembly from the high-pressure oil rail (Figure 6, Item 4). If the tube
cannot be removed due to chassis interference, go to Step 20.



NOTE: The lower crankcase-to-head tube
(Item 4, Figure 6), used with the long crankcase-to-head tube plug, may remain
in the crankcase.



  • If crankcase-to-head tube remains in the
    crankcase, continue with Step 18.
  • If crankcase-to-head tube assembly was removed,
    continue with Step 19.

NOTE: The tool set ZTSE4694-FLDUPD was automatically shipped June 5,
2008 to all US and Canadian service dealers. This tool set was shipped per the
Dealer Sales/ Maintenance Agreement and at no charge to the Dealer.


ZTSE4694-FLDUPD - Field Upgrade Components (extended rod and sleeve)
These components extend the length of the current service tool ZTSE4694 and
with this change effective update the existing tools into the ZTSE4694A. These
tools components are being supplied to Navistar's Dealer network at no charge
and will be included in a direct mailing.




Figure 7. ZTSE4694-FLDUPD


 



Figure 8. Crankcase-to-Head
Tube Removal Tool


1.
Tube Removal Tool ZTSE4694A


2.
Lower Plug and Tube Removal Tool ZTSE4923


3.
Broken Lower Plug Removal Tool ZTSE4922



 

18. Insert the Crankcase-to-head tube Removal Tool (Item 1, Figure 8) into
the crankcase-to-head tube, tighten T-handle, and pull out tube. If the lower
portion of the plug remains in the lower crankcase-to-head tube, use tool 2 to
attach to the lower plug and pull out plug and tube.


If the lower portion of the plug has had the
threaded top broken off, use tool 3 to hook the plug and pull out plug and tube.



NOTE: Do Steps 20 and 21 only if there is
not enough clearance to remove the case-to-head tube.



19. Discard crankcase-to-head tube and go to Step 26.


20. Loosen and remove seven M6 x 40 bolts securing the oil rail assembly to
the rocker arm carrier.




Figure 9. Oil Rail Bolts


 

21. Lift oil rail assembly straight away from injectors and case-to-head tube
assembly. Allow oil to drain back to the sump or other suitable container
(Figure 10). Go to Step 17 to remove broken case-to-head tube assembly
components.



CAUTION:


To prevent engine damage, do not remove the 1¼ x 20
UNF oil rail end plugs or single ball tubes. Service parts are not available to
support these components.





Figure 10. Non-serviceable oil
rail components


1.
Single ball tube (3)


2.
Oil rail end plug (2)




NOTE: The procedure for removing the
case-to-head tube assembly is the same for both sides of the engine.


New service tools were shipped
the week of May 19, 2008 to accommodate the situation that might occur on the
removal of the case-to-head tubes. These new tools are shown in Figure 8.



 

CAUTION:


To prevent engine damage, replace case-to-head tubes
and rail port plugs if removed. D-ring seals are not replaceable. Inspect each
D-ring carefully for cuts, abrasions, and twisting. Never use a tube with any of
these problems.



If high pressure oil rail was not removed, go to Step 26.


22. Install right High Pressure Oil Rail (HPOR).




Figure 11. Align Oil Rail
Assembly to Injector Oil Inlets


 

23. Using both hands, align the oil rail assembly with the oil inlets of each
fuel injector. Push down evenly until oil rail assembly is firmly seated (Figure
11).


24. Install oil rail assembly M6 x 40 bolts finger tight.





(Right click on graphic to bring up an option
list)


Figure 12. Oil Rail Torque
Sequence


 

25. Tighten M6 x 40 bolts to 13 Nm (115 lbf-in) torque in the above sequence
(Figure 12).


26. Lubricate the D-rings on the case-to-head tube (Figure 6, Item 4) with
clean engine oil and install into the branch tube.


27. Install right case-to-head tube plug (Figure 6, Item 3) and rail port
plug.


28. Tighten case-to-head tube assembly to special torque 82 N-m (60 lbf-ft).




Figure 13. Engine Compartment
with Cover Removed


 

29. Remove access plate on left side of engine cover (Figure 13). (Plate may
be held on with rivets that will have to be drilled out.)


30. Disconnect crankcase ventilation breather assembly hose from breather.


31. Remove left valve cover mount bolts.


32. Remove left valve cover and breather from vehicle.


33. Remove left Case-to-Head Tube assembly and rail port plug.


34. Install left case-to-head tube assembly.


35. Install rail port plug .


36. Remove and replace M12 Plug Assembly (P/N(NNN) NNN-NNNN91) on the left hand
side HPOR that corresponds in location to the ICP sensor on the right hand side
HPOR. Torque Plug Assembly to 27 N-m (20 lbf-ft).


37. Install left valve cover and torque to 9 N-m (84 lbf-in). Replace the
o-ring on the CCV breather fitting in the valve cover with the o-ring supplied
in the service kit.


38. Connect crankcase ventilation breather assembly hose to breather.


39. Install left side floor access panel (caulk edges of panel before putting
it in place to make sure it is sealed).


40. Install accelerator pedal position sensor.


41. Install right valve cover and torque to 9 N-m (84 lbf-in).


42. Install oil filler tube adapter to valve cover.


43. Position engine wiring harness over valve cover.


44. Install high pressure turbocharger assembly crossover tube.


45. Install Injection Control Pressure sensor (ICP) and torque to 27N-m (20
lbf-ft), per IK(NNN) NNN-NNNNdated 11/14/07.


46. Connect Injection Control Pressure (ICP) sensor.


47. Install oil dipstick tube mount bolts.


48. Install right rear engine lifting bracket.


49. Install oil filler tube.


50. Install tie straps as necessary.


51. Install charge air cooler intake hose.


52. Install air cleaner housing assembly.


53. Start engine assembly and check for proper operation.


54. Install engine housing cover.


55. Top off engine oil.


56. Close hood assembly.

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Sorry pictures didn't load but I can send them individually if needed!
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

we all ready replaced the tubes all 4 of them we did find o ring bad one tube and still did the same thing , and then we found the low oil pressure on the low side like i mentioned so we replaced the gear set and cover and regulator on the low pressure oil pump still the same how long should it take to build oil presssure when cranking and how high shoild it be (on the low oil side)

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
you need 5 psi of lube oil pressure minimum while cranking.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


It reads close to 0 when cranking , then slowly builds after about 10 -15 seconds of cranking we are at 12 psi on the low oil side , still no better than we were before we changed everything, we are going to replace the oil pump housing ( complete front cover) next maybe the clearance is too great not allowing to build pressure.

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
Could be a cracked pickup tube in the oil pan too
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


replaced pick up tube , and the oil pump housing still same problem, evrytime we bring it in and try somthing new, it runs worse for a day then starts to run better every day. It never runs great but it gats better to a point and then runs OK not good for a while then starts to get worse again. Everytime it comes in we have changer the oil , it seems once the oil gets any time on 400 or so miles it starts to get worse , it comes in we try somthing else and change the oil and it starts off bad for a day and then starts to get better to a point then it starts to get worse again. Starting off bad we contribute to air in the system it seems long (a day) but what else could it be. We are going to try new injectors next , we are running of things to replace. Is there an ambient air temp sensor that could through off the ECM as usually the truck is parked in a heated garage and it starts better, it was left out one night and it started worse, told customer to leave it out again and plug it in and it started better, wondering if ambient temp and engine temp are not jiving and ecm is not giving right air fuel mixture

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
What about electric fuel pump?Is it working?
0
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

yes , tested it for flow and pressure, and we can hear it run evry time, In my experience the pump ussually works or it does not , never had it work sometimes and not others ussually once it stops it stops for good

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.

The engine will run without the pump. It would be hard starting however. You may be hearing but is it building pressure ? Have u checked it with a fuel pressure gauge to make sure its building pressure and not just spinning stripped internally?And yes,injectors can cause the problem as well .

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


as i said we tested for flow and pressure

Expert:  Andy replied 1 year ago.
And we put shop air through the icp sensor and put 12 v to the ipr to see if injectors are leaking ?

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