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socrateaser
socrateaser, Lawyer
Category: Legal
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Experience:  Retired (mostly)
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can you explain about the formulation of our states breifly

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can you explain about the formulation of our states breifly and how the grant and limitation of power through the state constitutions are given to corporate municipality's that create law enforcement that police the people?
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Legal
Expert:  Fran-mod replied 1 year ago.
I'm Fran, and I’m a moderator for this topic.

We have been working with the professionals to try to help you with your question. Sometimes it may take a bit of time to find the right fit. I was checking to see if you had already found your answer or if you still needing assistance from one of the professionals.

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Customer: replied 1 year ago.

ill wait

Expert:  Fran-mod replied 1 year ago.

Thank you. We will continue to look for a professional to assist you. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance while you wait.
Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
Hello,

Customer service asked me to review your question. I'm unclear on your question. Is your goal is to show that a municipal police force is not constitutionally permitted (or visa versa). It will help me focus my answer, if I understand the purpose of the question.

Thanks in advance.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

im trying to understand were it all ties together, constitutions are the voice of the people the organic law of the land. municipal corporations are created by a charter, and in the charter the creation of their law enforcement but as we the people are concerned the the government is created by the people and for the people. the people are primordial to government. when the organic law is established it is the constitution of that state, however; when the municipalities are created by a grant of the state constitution a barrier is created between the organic law of the people, example are we ohioins of the state govern by our constitution or are we the citizens of the municipality govern by the color of law

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
Okay, thanks. I'm going to steer clear of any argument favoring one view or another. Instead, I will objectively cite the law of the State of Ohio, and let you draw your own conclusions about whether or not it fits within your notions of justice. Otherwise, we will end up in a moral argument, and morality (right and wrong) is for the People through their elected representatives (or by revolution) to decide.

That said, Section 3 of Article XVIII of the Ohio Constitution provides:

"Municipalities shall have authority to exercise all powers of local self-government and to adopt and enforce within their limits such local police, sanitary and other similar regulations, as are not in conflict with general laws."

In City of Columbus v. Teater,XXXXX 2d 253 (OH 3/29/1978), the Ohio Supreme Court writes: "The police power[2] and the power of local self-government are constitutional grants of authority equal in dignity. The state may not restrict the exercise of self-government within a municipality. Furthermore, a municipality may exercise the police power within its borders. However, the general laws of the state remain supreme in the exercise of that power, even if the issue is one which might also be a proper subject of municipal legislation. Canton v. Whitman (1975),XXXXX 2d 62, 66, 337 N. E. 2d 766, appeal dismissed, 425 U. S. 956 (1976)."

I think that the above covers your question, as asked. Once again, I ask that we not get into a discussion of whether or not the above-stated principles are right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. The opinions announced by the Ohio Supreme Court are the law of the State, and unless you intend to have those laws changed through legislative enactments, constitutional convention, or overthrow of the government, then good or bad, the law "is what it is."

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

so if there is a conflict between city ordinance and state statute the state statute reins supreme i.e. it must follow state statute?

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
That's what the Ohio Supreme Court says, so that's the law. It's also the law of every other state and the law of the federal government, as well. So, Ohio is operating under the fundamental doctrines of constitutional interpretation, as evolved by the courts of the USA since the founding of the nation.

Hope this helps.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

when a city is created by way of a charter is it the state that authorizes it

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
This is a new question. You are asking about statutory, not constitutional law.

Website policy requires that you open a new Q&A session for your new question.

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

well its in line with what i as asking you about are we ohioins or citizens of the city this is the reason i ask you about the charter. example black law defines charter as such:


An


instrument by which a municipality is incorporated, specifying its organizational structure and its
highest laws; specif., a written document making the persons residing within a fixed boundary,along with their successors, a corporation and body politic for and within that boundary. so is there another form of citizen being created there also other than a state citizen?

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
Actually, upon further research, I find that the Ohio Constitution, Art. XVIII, Sec. 7, provides: Any municipality may frame and adopt or amend a charter for its government and may, subject to the provisions of Section 3 of this article, exercise thereunder all powers of local self-government.

So, in fact, the issue is of Constitutional magnitude. That's actually a surprise to me, but, I learn something new every day.

Note: While Black's Law Dictionary is indisputably the de facto lexicon of legal language in the English-speaking world, it is not a substitute for the actual and dispositive law of a jurisdiction. Using a law dictionary is good place to start research. It is rarely, if ever the final arbiter of a legal concept -- unless a court of the jurisdiction has given a particular dictionary definition legal precedent.

Hope this helps.


Customer: replied 1 year ago.

im still a bit confused article 2 section 1f articulates :

§1f The initiative and referendum powers are hereby reserved to the people of each municipality on all questions which such municipalities may now or hereafter be authorized by law to control by legislative action; such powers shall be exercised in the manner now or hereafter provided by law.

and in your opinion which are viewed as dejure law dictionary

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
Can you please ask a specific question? I don't understand what you find confusing.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

that the power to initiate and referendum is with the people on what they control by legislative action but you said


"Actually, upon further research, I find that the Ohio Constitution, Art. XVIII, Sec. 7, provides: Any municipality may frame and adopt or amend a charter for its government and may, subject to the provisions of Section 3 of this article, exercise thereunder all powers of local self-government."


so can the city just change as they please or is it vested in the people? i know you didnt say it you quoted from ohio constitution.

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
I don't see any inconsistency between the two constitutional provisions. A municipality can use a legislative regime to modify its charter (assuming that the charter permits this), such as through its elected council members, or its citizens can use the initiative or referendum process.

Hope this helps.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

in your opinion which are viewed as dejure law dictionary

Expert:  socrateaser replied 1 year ago.
If you mean, which dictionaries are typically used by Ohio appellate courts, for various purposes, then see State v. Chappel, 2008-Ohio-6416, 149 Ohio Misc.2d 80 (2008), fn. 100-104.

Hope this helps.
socrateaser, Lawyer
Category: Legal
Satisfied Customers: 34079
Experience: Retired (mostly)
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