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Andrea, Esq.
Andrea, Esq., Attorney
Category: Legal
Satisfied Customers: 12554
Experience:  25 yrs. experience in family law, estates, real estate, business law, criminal defense, immigration, and employment law.
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Hi My girlfriend and I applied for a car loan over the

This answer was rated:


My girlfriend and I applied for a car loan over the phone in Illinois . We were approved . the loan is supposed to be in both our names but only she has signed the paperwork ( I am an OTR truck driver ) and I was expecting to be there today when we originated this transaction . She has had possession of the vehicle for the last 2 weeks .

A few days into this I discovered that the car was a long term rental ( it has 79,000 miles on it ) The dealer advertised this car for $12637 but on the paperwork she signed it's 13,300 before any charges for interest etc . ( the car has been on their website stating it's available for sale since we took possession ( also stating the car only has 71,500)

I was led to believe that our employment status as temp employees was the reason for the high interest rate ( 22.95%)
I found out later after clarifying with the dealer after possession that it was not the case( he lied) .

The dealer only has half of the down payment ( $1500.00) and we attempted to return the car today as we had made the sales manager aware we no longer wanted the car due to discrepancies in his story to us as well as the history of the car .

I have found another dealership willing to sell us a car at 6.7% .

The dealer has stated that they will charge us $400.00 for the time used because she smoked in it an ' loss of potential sale ' during our possession

my girlfriend caved into them and will be picking up the car tomorrow , I was forced to speak with the sales manager and agree to take the loan once I return ( next week 4/27) but I feel it was under duress as my girlfriend needs as vehicle to get to and from work and drop off our 6 month old at the sitter.

We could have had another car today if our entire deposit had been refunded . The dealer did not inform us of any potential penalty or charges for smoking in the vehicle or loss of sale if we were unable to complete the loan for whatever reason .

I will not be forced into buying a car for what will be an additional $5000 in finance charges because of this .

so what recourse do we have and is it legal for them to make up charges like this without any authorization or acknowledgement by us of it ?

I am the one with the down payment/good job/better credit . she herself could not possibly be approved for a loan due to short time on job/income/credit

Hello, Walter, and Welcome to JustAnswer, My name is XXXXX XXXXX my goal is to provide you with Excellent Service,



1. Is the dealer expecting you to sign the loan documents also ?


2. What explanation did the dealer give you for the discrepancy in mileage and price ?



Thank you,




Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Yes they are but as I stated i feel it's under duress as I cannot do anything about this right now . I was supposed to be home tomorrow ( I am in New York state ) but my load fell through and my girlfriend wants me to come home for an actual weekend ( she works 2nd shift )


and I will include my conversation with the dealer via email ( sorry it's kinda long )

Walter Grogan <[email protected]>

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to art

Sale price of car $13300. That's 693 above advertised price ...and car is 3000 miles over advertised mileage .

Your gap policy is 795 this is a total difference of $1458.

Lowering $1458 from finance cost brings amount down to $10393.30 which at our interest rate gives us a payment of $314.30

Art ,

The profit was worked into the advertised price .
I like you , you're an excellent salesman and I will purchase with you again If we can come to terms with this.

I'm not asking for the ' internet price ' ( which I'm sure is less) I'm not trying to make this a situation where you make no money on the car either.

But let me ask you this, if you go to Wal-Mart and see a box of mac and cheese on the shelf for $1.00 and you go to the register and it rings up at $2.00 would you buy it ?

It's much easier for me to double up on a payment at 314 than 360 . It's almost 50 per month (if paid out over life of the loan that's an additional 2732.60 ) its an extra 100 a month to do so at terms now.

Consider this..if I can pay this off in 2 years that's another sale for you and I will trade this into you and we both win . I get my credit improved , thereby allowing me to have more borrowing power for our next purchase and you'll make 2 sales and 2 profits .

I think I've demonstrated my loyalty and appreciation for your hard work and I'd like the opportunity to do so again in tbe future.

Please give me your thoughts on my proposal

Thank you

art Palinski

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to me


I apprceiate your prospective, but there is certain things that I can, and can't do. I will share some information that I hope will help you understand why I'm limited on what I can do. The Malibu we currently own for $12,054.54. There is a fee of $750 from the bank with must figure into the cost of selling the car to you. This leaves me with a $495 profit on your deal. You are NOT required to take gap. I recommend it, but that choice is yours. I have spoken with the loan company on your behalf. I was able to get them to deduce the rate 1 point to 22.95%. If you choose to remove the gap coverage, the amount to finance $11602.30, given you a payment of $329.87. If you choose gap, your payment is $352.47. I hope this makes sense to you and your family.

From: Walter Grogan <[email protected]>
To: art Palinski <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 11:26 AM
Subject: Malibu

Walter Grogan <[email protected]>

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to Little

Walter Grogan <[email protected]>

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to art

Is there any type of deductible with the warranty being provided ?

Walter Grogan <[email protected]>

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to art

Okay I will let you know in a little while . Thank you for your time :-)

Walter Grogan <[email protected]>

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to art

Hi Art .

I just spoke with Integrity my employer to see what I am classified as , as this is dictating a higher percentage point loan due to the assumption I'm a temp .

Integrity classifies me as a full time employee and NOT a temporary employee .
Please have the lender call them for verification as I believe it can lower my interest rate .

Their phone number is XXX-XXX-XXXX .

They need to speak with Patty to have my employment status verified.

Hey I gotta try to save a buck somehow ;-)

Walter Grogan <[email protected]>

Apr 9 (11 days ago)

to art

Ok . I gotcha.

I hope this helps .

I chose to look at other avenues for obtaining a loan after this conversation . I feel we are being treated unfairly due to poor credit history . But I also feel with my earnings ( $60,000 per yr and $3000 down I shouldn't be treated this way .

Hi, Walter, I do not know what was in the images, because I was unable to download any of them. I was only able to read the parts which you typed out,


The car was actually 7,500 miles over what they advertised, less of course, what your girlfriend drove.


The dealer and the salesman know that what and how they have represented the vehicle to you constitutes unfair and deceptive trade practices, bordering on fraud. because under normal circumstances, dealers do not allow customers to return vehicles, especially when they have been driven for several weeks. For this salesman to allow you to return the vehicle, even with a surcharge of $400 is very unusual. So, you can bet that they know that they have done something very, very wrong.


Do not be fooled by what the salesman told you, i.e., that he did his very best in getting you that interest rate and even knocking off one percentage point. You are still at 23% (22.9%, same thing). And I do not understand at all what the salesman meant by, "There is a fee of $750 from the bank with must figure into the cost of selling the car to you. This leaves me with a $495 profit on your deal..........."


What did he mean by the $750 fee ? It is probably his kickback for directing your loan business to them. And, $500 profit is pretty much standard profit on a pre-owned vehicle, and he is making almost 5% commission on the sale, so I would not be fooled by his "tale of woe".





You have been very polite and gentlemanly with the salesman. What I would do if I were in your position is that I would find out the cost of renting the vehicle they gave you for two weeks. Then, I would speak to the salesman and be just as polite and gentlemanly and at the same time, tell him that you are going to return the vehicle because you believe that you were the subject of unfair and deceptive trade practices. If they advertise a vehicle at a certain price, then raise the price by several hundred dollars when a prospective purchaser visits their showroom, what would you call it ? Not only did they raise the price, but they misrepresented the mileage shown on the odometer. Then, tell the salesman, that in order to be fair and because your girlfriend did take possession of the vehicle, you will pay him the fair rental value of the vehicle. Do not let him kid you about cigarette smoke, that is easily removed when they detail the vehicle. S, give them back the vehicle plus the fair rental value and go somewhere else where you can get financing at a reasonable rate. After all, if you or I extended a loan to someone at an interest rate of 23% we would have criminal charges filed against us for charging usurious interest rates, better known as loansharking.


If the salesman is adamant about not taking the vehicle back, then just tell him that you are sorry that it has come to this, but he is forcing you to file a formal Complaint with the Illinois State Attorney General's Office and with the Federal Trade Commission. The Federal Trade Commission is the Federal consumer "Watchdog". Both Offices have the power to investigate and prosecute these trade practices and the Illinois Attorney General can even revoke their license to do business in Illinois.


Illinois Attorney General -


Federal Trade Commission -




Please be kind enough to rate my service to you as "Excellent Service",

Bonus and Positive Feedback are greatly appreciated,


Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to assist you,



Andrea, Esq. and other Legal Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

sorry , i needed to add this part . I added it last night but as an additional question (which you apparently didn't see )

Sorry , I forgot to mention the sales contract she signed has inaccurate mileage on the paperwork as well . it's advertised as having 71,511 or something but when checking the Autocheck vehicle report when the dealer purchased the vehicle the mileage on it was over 72,000 .

the paperwork says 76500 something but in actuality when we took possession it was over 79,000 .



Sorry I was up late and wound up staying up till 5:00 am hoping for your response that I didn't give you all the details of what is supposed to transpire today .


Stephanie has a new job which has a 3 strike policy in the first 90 days for termination .


due to a car repair and a single time we couldn't get a sitter she now has 2 strikes ( she will hit her 90 day period in about 2 weeks at which point she will go to a 5 strike system .


We need to have a car.

The salesman knows this which is why he behaved as he did yesterday .

Stephanie dropped off the car but due to his pressuring her and her fear of repurcussions to her credit rating ( she is the only one who signed the contract ) She agreed to take the car back but I had to call Art over the phone after a discussion I had with him about these charges which we were not told at that time how much it would be .


I had told him during the first conversation I was not opposed to a detailing fee of $100 dollars but he was stating it would be more but was unsure how much . Stephanie needed to get to work and was being refused our money back until an assessment had been made as to what the charge would be by the General Manager .


during our conversation I explained to Art ( the salesman) that should he choose to try to charge an exorbitant amount we would pay it and once I returned I would take this issue to small claims court .


Once I said this to him ( I said It would happen once these charges were determined) . He immediately became aggressive and said dealership policy was to stop talking at that point and let his GM handle this .


I asked a Stephanie to call the police , she didn't want to so as she was soon to be running late for work and was with another person we contracted to drive her to work . ( with the expectation I would be returning home saturday to go to Carmax).


Art told her that he would not speak with me anymore as I was not on t

he loan .

After leaving Stephanie didn't want to fight over this and she is put in the middle . I agreed to let her go back today to get the car but had to speak to Art in order to say I was onboard with this .


She is simply afraid of losing her job which has been used against her .

during my phone conversation with Art I stated I was not happy with any happy with all of this and he told me I had to be as the lender ( Exeter Finance . ) would be calling me after the sale of the car when I eventually get there ( he is under the impression it will be mid week next week ) and I must tell them everything is wonderful or the loan won't be approved .


I told him what he wanted to hear so that Stephanie could just get something for work as our opportunity to get a car at the other dealership would now not happen because of these delays .


She is to get the car .


Something you're not aware of is that back in september of 2012 we had a similar situation with the same dealer while she was pregnant and they allowed her to drive the car under a borrowers agreement for 2 weeks and based on the insurance rates for that vehicle/d/down payment problem ( more than the car payment ) we declined to purchase it .


We were not charged anything that time . he understood which is why we returned there to buy this vehicle from them this time .


part of my problem here with this vehicle is that it's been at the dealer for 11 months since purchase. this is an unusually long time to have a car and given it's history and pricing issues I simply don't want to get involved with it .


I don't understand how when we went there in good faith twice to purchase a car and the first time we declined for good reason and were not charged that now , after this second time and for absolutely clear reasons which I have expressed many times to him that we are to be billed for this .


it's my understanding that the loan will be cancelled if I do not agree to the it in which case the dealer's only option is to demand the car back and return our full deposit .


do I have this wrong ?

Good afternoon, Walter, Sorry for any delay in my Answer, I was giving my eyes a little break from the computer monitor,


I stand by my Answer, in fact, I feel even more strongly about it now that you told me about the odometer. The dealer apparently tampered with the odometer. This is a violation of Illinois State law and the Federal Truth in Mileage Act, both of which carry heavy fines and/or prison sentences. I know that the dealer will not speak to you, but if you were to put everything in writing, including the odometer tampering, the discrepancy in mileage of which you have proof, and the Illinois and Federal Statutes covering these situations, I firmly believe that they would not hesitate to take the vehicle back and give you a complete refund. I had suggested that instead of paying the dealer the $400 he was demanding, to pay a fair rental value only because Stephanie was using the vehicle. However, if they had made this accommodation for you in the past, then they could have done the same thing again, especially because of their misrepresentations, tampering with the odometer, and their unfair and deceptive trade practices.


In order to protect yourself from any lawsuit by the dealer when you tell them you will not sign anything, either the Agreement of Sale, or the Loan Application, and in order to protect Stephanie's credit, you convey your position and your reasons, to the dealership in a brief, concise letter in which you demand the return of your deposit in full. If you need any assistance with the letter, please let me know.




Please be kind enough to rate my service to you as "Excellent Service",

Bonus and Positive Feedback are greatly appreciated,


Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to assist you,



Customer: replied 4 years ago.

I am not sure that odometer tampering occurred , rather they have had the car for a year and haven't updated the mileage on the website and they put the incorrect mileage on the loan documentation for the lenders consent ( there may be limitations for the loan based on mileage , i.e. they won't finance a car at 80,000 miles which the car currently sits at due to Stephanie's driving it for 2 weeks ( approximately 250 miles per week ) .


I needed to make you aware that we will be in possession of the vehicle due to their charge which given our previous experience was not charged for a similar situation .


We are only in possession of it due to this fee that is inconvienent to get around since I am not there in person to dispute it , only over the phone which gives the dealer a sense of control over Stephanie .


So yes if possible a correctly worded letter format for me to present to him would be appreciated in order to bolster my chances of getting them to just take their car and refund the FULL deposit would be appreciated .


Time will be of the essence to me upon my return due to the demands of my job .


I don't think they are criminals in the sense that they would tamper with the odometer , I do however believe that the car is being wholly misrepresented and we did make a good faith effort to return it to them in the same condition , under the same parameters that occcurred back in september 2012 that we shouldn't be held liable .


Thank you ..


I apologize for it being lengthy but given the nature I wanted to give you all the pertinent facts that pertained to this issue , while recogniizing that this is a limited forum for legal advice . I want the most accurate information to avoid this turning ugly once I return the car and refuse to continue .



I apologize for any misunderstanding regarding the odometer. The manner in which you phrased your reply made me believe that the dealer had turned back the odometer. Yes, they misrepresented the vehicle in many respects, I said that in my previous Answers. You have not signed the Agreement of Sale, or the Loan Application, and as you said, the vehicle is approaching 80,000 miles and that would make it even more difficult to finance. Of course, the salesman is going to tell you that it can be financed, and I am sure it can, but probably at a higher rate than the 22.95% that they are presently telling you is favorable. The salesman and the dealer should be made aware that under the totality of the circumstances, you are not planning on signing any documents to facilitate this sale. You should also take into account that a vehicle with 80,000 miles, especially a domestic vehicle, will very soon require extensive repairs and at this stage, you cannot even be sure if it will be reliable transportation for Stephanie to use to and from her place of employment. I am afraid I spoke to soon about assisting with the letter because it is not included in the value of the question and I noticed that you have not rated any of the Answers I have given you. The deposit you placed was with JustAnswer. And, without a rating of my service to you, I will not receive any credit for assisting you. I hope you can understand.



Please be kind enough to rate my service to you as "Excellent Service",

Bonus and Positive Feedback are greatly appreciated,


Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to assist you,


Customer: replied 4 years ago.

my apologies , I didn't realize I had to rate each response. I will do that . so does my situation still fit the criteria for this letter ? and cost ?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

and if I answer excellent to each the answers is that a $50 dollar charge each ??

Hi, Walter, The Terms of Service allow a customer to post their question, receive an Answer and they can ask follow up questions at no additional charge if they need clarification of anything in the Expert's Answer. The Expert does not have any access to a customer's account and we are not permitted to discuss, or negotiate value of questions with customers. Therefore, I do not know what amount a customer placed on deposit with JustAnswer. We only see the value that was placed on the question which is twenty five in this instance. Sometimes when customers are new to the site, they do not know how it works, so I understand. Thank you for the "Excellent Service" rating, I appreciate it greatly. I will just consider all other questions as follow up questions for which you will not incur any additional charges. Tell me what points you want to emphasize in the letter, and when you want to return the vehicle. Before I start the letter, you can offer an amount by way of a bonus, or the same amount as you offered for the question. Since we are not permitted to negotiate price or values with customers, it is up to the customer to make the offer, so it will be up to you as to the amount you offer and then I can tell you whether it is acceptable or not. I can have the letter ready for your review and comments within 30 or so minutes. And, I can revise it if you want any changes, just let me know.





Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Sorry for the delay I was driving and have since gone to a motel . um value how is $40 ?

My apologies, Walter, for the delay, but I had to take care of some matters that arose unexpectedly. Your offer is acceptable and I can have the letter ready for your review as soon as you let me know you are back online and have paid the bonus amount which you have offered. It will be concise and you will be demanding a refund of the full $1,500 which you have paid to the dealership based on the issues we have discussed in our correspondence on this question page. You will let me know what, if anything, you want to change or add and I will revise the letter accordingly,







Hi, Walter, Thank you for requesting me, but when I went to that thread, the question box was marked "closed". I have completed the letter and I am sending it as a "Word" document Attachment. Please let me know if you have any problems downloading the letter.


Please review and let me know if you want any additions or changes and I will be glad to revise it.









Bonus and Positive Feedback are greatly appreciated,


Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to assist you,




Walter, I do not think the letter was sent because I tried to open the Attachment and nothing came up, so I am trying again,