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Cardoctor69
Cardoctor69, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Kia
Satisfied Customers: 25339
Experience:  ASE Master
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2000 Kia Sportage: intermittently..no fuel pressure, I..fuel pump

Customer Question

Hello guys, I am hoping one of you can help me figure out a 2000 Kia Sportage that has me stumped. For a couple days the vehicle would intermittently not start, then start later in the day, then at one point it turned off while driving and has not started since. I has no fuel pressure, I tested the fuel pump and the pump works when power is applied to it. Noted no ground on the signal side of the EGI main relay and no ground on the signal side for the fuel pump relay. If I jumper ground to both of these signal wires, i hear the relays click and the fuel pump turns on, but the vehicle still will not start. Where to next?
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Kia
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Hi Branden Riggs Thank you for choosing JA, I will do my very best to assist you with your concern.
How many miles on this? Also, do you know if it has spark?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
78k miles. No, I haven't checked for spark, was too busy chasing this fuel issue. What is the easiest way to check for spark on this vehicle.
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Spray some carb cleaner into the throttle body. If there is spark it should at least pop for a few seconds. Give it a shot and let me know!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
ok, will report back in say...5-7 min.
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Ok, I will be here!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Sorry about the delay, couldn't find the carb cleaner, I used brake cleaner, No change to cranking speed, no sputtering or anything. Brake cleaner should work also, correct? If no vehicle has no fuel and no spark
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Yep, brake cleaner should work as long as it is the flamable stuff.
I think you should look at the timing belt. If the belt is good then it is likely a problem with the cam or crank position sensor.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I was worried it could be a timing belt, but with the low mileage I had hoped that wouldn't be the cause. Oh, also. The vehicle dies on me, and then restarted intermittently for 3-4 days. Would that even be possible with a torn timing belt? How do I go about testing the crankshaft position sensor and the camshaft position sensor. ALSO, if the camshaft position sensor or crankshaft position sensor were faulty, I'm confused. The vehicle does not have fuel when i walk out to the car and put the key in the run position, the cam sensor and crank sensor arent doing anything with the engine not spinning ( i think) how would they cause the pcm to not send fuel/spark?
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
You will only have power to the fuel pump for about 2 seconds if the pcm doesn't see the engine cranking.
The timing belt is suppose top be replaced at 60k on these.
You may be able to test the sensors with a volt meter. Do you have one available?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I do have a voltmeter available. The fuel pump NEVER turns on. it does not turn on for 2 seconds and then turn off. Is there an inspection port or somewhere i can see the timing belt? again I dont think its the belt since it turned the car off then, started back up intermittently for 3-4 days
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
It may be possible just to look and see if the cams a turning when you crank the engine. Give me a bit and I will see if there is a resistance check for the sensors.
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
IS the check engine light coming on when you turn the key on?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
The check engine light is not on. with key in position 2 i have : battery, door open light (there is a door open), brake light, and the oil can. When i turn it to position 3 ( starting) the oil can light turns off, the others stay on.
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Ok, go to the fuse box under the hood and with the key on wiggle the EGI relay, this is in the fuse box under the hood.
This may be the issue, if there is no power getting to the ecm then the car won't start or run.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
The wiring to the relay is only a side-effect of the real problem, I verified circuit 30 power to both relays, I verified the ECM is NOT providing the ground signal to the relays, but even with that ground circuit bypassed, the relays then turn on, and the fuel pump then turns on, and I have fuel pressure, but the vehicle still doesnt not start
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Ok, so then my question would be A, if the ecm is not grounding the relays and B, if it won't start, what makes you think the ecm would be sending signal to the coils and injectors to fire? If it isn't supplying the ground like it should, then it is likely it isn't doing a bunch of other things it should be doing either. Make sense?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I agree it seems like a faulty ECM, or that a sensor is sending a faulty signal to the ECM telling it not to function. I replaced the ECM with a known good part, no change in vehicle function.
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
Ok, looks like the fuel inj main 30 amp fuse feeds power, so lets have a look at it. It's under the hood in the same box as the egi relay. I am also showing a 15 amp fuse in the same box. In my diagram it is labeled "main fuse" this supplies the power to the egi relay.
IF the ecm is not providing the ground it is possible you have a broken or corroded wire to the relays from the ecm.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
The fuses are all good in the power box under the hood. I tested for ground coming OUT of the ecm at the wire JUST out of the connector on the ECM. The wiring between the ecm and the relays isnt the problem, the ECM itself isnt sending out the ground signal to the relays, presumabely due to a sensor input it is recieving from a faulty sensor?
Expert:  Mike V. replied 3 years ago.
While I do agree, I believe the ecm should power up the relays just because you turned the key on.
I am going to open this back up for the other Kia experts. Perhaps one of them have experienced this first hand. Please don't reply or it will lock the question on to me and they won't be able to respond. If anyone can help, they will answer.
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.
Did you figure problem out yet? I would start by disconnecting and reconnecting the ecm connector incase you have a poor connection. Check for battery voltage at the Mass Air Flow Sensor or the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve from the main relay. If there is voltage at the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor and the IAC valve then go to the Engine Control Module (ECM) and check for battery voltage on terminals 26 and 54. Try grounding the check engine light on terminal 8 of the ECM and see if the check engine light comes on in case of a bulb or harness problem for no check engine light rather than a computer problem. Check the computer grounds on terminals 6, 28, 34 and 55. Checking for 5.0 volt reference from the ECM on terminal 59 as necessary. Check the connector C123 and C124 (recall #014) for a poor connection behind the intake manifold. If nothing is found by this point its time to check timing marks and/or compression. Let me know if you have questions, thanks.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Thanks for the response Dan, No I have not made any further progress on this vehicle. I will work through all of your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you as soon as I can. When you say checking for 5.0V on terminal 59 "as necessary" what do you mean? Also I am going to check everything you said tomorrow, but wanted to ask you how some of the things you mentioned could be the cause for my complaint.

IAC - is it possible for an IAC error to cause the ECM to turn off fuel supply and spark?
MAF - same question as above.
In regarderd to the check engine light, i have a code scanner I can scan for codes if you think I might have a check engine light that I am unaware of.

Side note - do you know what PIN 1 on the ECM should be, ive found two wiring diagrams and noticed one of them shows it as a ground to the main relay, and another shows it supplying 12V to something. If I remember correctly, my vehicle is supplying 12V on pin 1 of the ECM.
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.
If the 5v was shorted or iac shorted it could cause this to happen. SO I would start by checking power/grounds and shorted 5v. I would think it would be one of those. Let me know what you find. If nothing at least do a compression test but the timing marks shoudl be checked. Thanks.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I think i understand all of the diagnosis steps you want me to take, except "checking for a shorted 5v, which pins am I looking for a possible short on, and your saying Im looking for a short to power, as in there is 5V on a pin where it isnt supposed to be? I don't understand this, but if you just tell me which in to check that should or should not have 5V i will do it for you and report back here. Thanks again.
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.

If the power/grounds at the pcm are good then I think you have a power or 5v shorted to ground which is what you need to check. Let me know what you find, thanks.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
perofmring the Pin-out tests on the computer for you now, what should "Pin1 " read?
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.
Pin 1 grounds the red wire which is for the fuel pump relay. Lets start by checking power/grounds on the ecm. Let me know if they are all good, thanks.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
ok, i will have your numbers for you in a few minutes, been fighting to get a free minute here. sorry for the delay in my getting you the readings
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.
No problem....considering the relays arent being grounded and pcm has been replaced I'm thinking you might have a bad ground on the pcm. But let me know what you find, thanks.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
pin 1 - no continuity to ground
pin 6 - .4 ohms to ground
pin 28 - .4 ohms to ground
pin 34 - .6 ohms to ground
pin 55 - .6 ohms to ground
pin 59 - no voltage present
there is .7 ohms continuity to ground between chassis ground and the case of the computer, so im "assuming" the computer is being grounded? but no power on pin 59
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
the replacement ecm installed in the vehicle was from checker auto parts, is that a super no-no? assuming the results i gave you point to a computer. Also had a friend crank the engine over and watched valve train through oil fill cap, valve train moves when cranking - timing chain not broken
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
the pin-out chart i have says for pin 1 on ECM " key-on Engine off B+" "idle <2.0V"
does this mean pin 1 should have 12v at key on engine off, and less than 2.0v at engine idle?
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.
Sorry about the delay my internet is having problems. Thats strange There is no 5v on 59. Do you have a scantool that can monitor live data? Are you showing cranking rpm? Have you tried to bypass the fuel pum prelay and main relay to see if that made a difference? As far as the pin one, I see the same thing on my chart but that doesnt make sense if it needs to ground the fuel pump relay. Thanks.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I dont have access to monitoring live data. I have no way of accessing cranking rpm values. I HAVE bypassed the ground signal from the ECM and MANUALLY gactuated both the main relay and the fuel pump relay, this turns the fuel pump on, giving me fuel pressure. But the vehicle STILL does not start, no change at all to function with relays bypassed or not. So the problem with the fuel pump not turning on is because the ECM is "choosing not to turn it on" along with choosing to diable other functions ( i think) Im pretty sure my problem is rooted in computer logic(computer choosing not to run due to sensor inputs/lack of sensor inputs), or a faulty computer, or faulty wiring to the computer from one of the sensors it is not getting the signal it wants from. Im actually very hesitant to believe this vehicle is sophisticated enough to monitor sensor inputs and "decide" to shut its functioning down like this. Im ageing at much too fast a rate because of this car :(
Expert:  Dan replied 3 years ago.
Ok, I'm comming to a standstill here considering power/grounds are good, ecm is new, but relays dont activate, and there is no 5v reference....I'll opt-out of this question and leave it open to some other experts......SOMEONE is giong to be able to help you get this figured out.......I'll see if gunny is online. Good luck and if I think of anything I'll let you know, in the meantime just hang in there.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Quick question was this vehicle in any accident ? Any interior water damage etc?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Never been in an accident that I know of, has a clean title, but vehicle history before 2007 isnt known. No visible signs of water damage, vehicle was an east coast car so there is rust everywhere, but interior looks water/rust/body damage free
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Ok need to check engine harness grounds and the engine harness itself.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Where do you want me to check? and I will. Right now, i was under the impression that the computer was getting all the proper grounds it was suppoed to, but possibly not getting a power input it is supposed to get? I am totally spent, so whatever you want me to do I will try, I just don't understand exactly what you want me to do.

Side note - there is a $40 bonus for whichever expert gets this vehicle started for/with me
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Sorry lost internet connection . Did not want to leave you hanging . Have you checked the electrical part of the ignition switch yet to see if it's melted?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
No i have not, it seems like the ignition switch is functioning properly, i will look at that tomorrow, is it common for them to melt?
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Yes absolutely . Keep me posted and let me know what you find.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
the ignition switch "looks" fine, is there a spot on the computer, or elsewhere that i can electrically verify it's operation? thank you in advance
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
You are checking the electrical part correct ?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
yes, no "visible" damage, was just wondering if that was supposed to supply power to a certain pin somewhere that i could test
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Yes it powers the EGI relay. Let me ask you what's compression. Even though the cams are moving these are known for teeth to break off the timing belt and cause it to jump time . Did you physically check cam and crank timing marks?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
No I have not, I can remove the upper timing cover and do so though. Before I do this, can i please verify, if timing was off, does the computer somehow know this BEFORE the engine starts spinning and prevent itself from turning on the fuel pump? Also the first time this vehicle failed it turned off, then restarted and started intermittently for 3-4 days before being completely dead as it is now, does this seems possible for timing to cause such erratic operation?
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Yes it's possible could have had 2 different issues and the belt jumped and now will not start.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
If there were two issues we would still need to figure out why my computer won't turn on the fuel relays, I can inspect the timing tomorrow myself and am not worried about that. I am concerned with the reason why I have no fuel pressure and would like to pursue that please.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Ok this is all leading to an internal issue in the ECM was this replaced yet?Also both fuel relays were replaced correct they work together if one is bad it affects the other.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Also remove the connector to the fuel pump had a few issues were the pins actually rotted causing this .Look to see if there are any signs of corroded pins. Also all under hood fuses are good correct.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Both the main and fuel pump relay were replaced. the ECM was replaced, but with a "loaner" ECM a friend of mine at an auto parts store got me. I have not replaced the ECM with a kia ECM yet, which, i agree, is where it seems like i am headed. Do you have a list of inputs I could check on the ECM. I am worried a sensor input is causing the ECM to act this way. The ECM from Kia is almost $900.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
The connector to the fuel pump was good the actual pins correct have seen these corrode and cause this issue. I would double check that . As for the ECM get a salvage unit for about 75 to 100 dollars instead of a new piece . If that's not the issue you can always get that money back selling it on EBay. I don't have the pin out handy right now for the ECM . Also check the fuel pump connector and the harness had a few of these go bad . Keep me posted.
Cardoctor69, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Kia
Satisfied Customers: 25339
Experience: ASE Master
Cardoctor69 and other Kia Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
will do, i wont be back with the vehicle until tomorrow, so I wont have new info for you until then. thanks for being so persistent with this vehicle diagnosis.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Anytime .I'll be here when you need me.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
timing appears to be ok. connector at fuel pump and [ins at fuel pump are ok. Currently tracking down a used ECM. I'll let you know. Mostly just posting this to re-open the question so it doesnt time-out on you.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Ok I'm here when you need me.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Hello Cardoctor. Car is idling in my garage today, ending up shotgunning a ckp sensor into the car as a last ditch effort before i went and got a salvage yard ECM and the car fired right up. I really appreciate all the time you spent into helping me diagnose all of this. Even though we didn't end up coming to the conclusion of the ckp sensor being faulty I'm going to accept the question but not issue the bonus because I want you to get paid for your time and effort assisting me. Thanks again.
Expert:  Cardoctor69 replied 3 years ago.
Anytime . Positive feedback greatly appreciated .

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