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Amedee
Amedee, Kia Technician
Category: Kia
Satisfied Customers: 21972
Experience:  ASE Master Technician advanced level specialist. Wisconsin certified emissions state inspector
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97 Kia Sportage wont start. It cranks and if we direct wire

Customer Question

97 Kia Sportage won't start. It cranks and if we "direct wire" the fuel pump it works...and the kia will start. We seem to have voltage at the relay and we've swapped the relay out with another one and still no starting. Of note, when the relay is inserted into the slot it does not "click"...as it does in the other slot with the same relay (beside the fuel pump relay). We've tried both relays. We've pulled the fuel pump...it works straight wired and if we bypass the relay it will start the kia. Very frustrated. Seems like there's something keeping it from engaging when wired the normal way. We have checked the continuity on the wire to the fuel pump....that seems fine.
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: Kia
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Hello!

Does the check engine light come on with the key in the on position?

Do you have power to the fuel injectors while cranking?

Edited by AMEDEE on 8/25/2010 at 10:51 PM EST
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
the check engine light does not come on when the key is in the on position....and I'm assuming that I have power to the injectors because it will start if we direct wire the pump to the battery.... Does that help any? My dad is not here presently and I do not know how to check the power to the injectors by myself. :(
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok..Unplug the EGI main relay and verify two terminals in the EGI main relay connector have battery voltage. Try swapping the EGI main relay with the fuel pump relay as necessary. If the EGI main relay is working and those components have battery voltage key on and the Check Engine Light comes on key on, the check for engine RPM on the scan tool while cranking to try and determine of the Crankshaft Position sensor is working. You may need to check the Engine Control Module (ECM) powers and grounds.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I have swapped those two relays and still it cranks like it's going to start....but, it does not engage the fuel pump. We do not have the scan tool to check the engine RPM. We have an Acutron scanner and not codes show up. The ECM module is under the dash...right? (I'm feeling pretty stupid here!) :(
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
YUP!

Below Right Side of I/P

graphic
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
my dad will come up in the morning and bring his meter. Laughing I will get back to you! I sure hope this fixes it. You SURE do look young! :)
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
I am 29 years young. :) THat picture is a few years old. I have been working on cars all my life ever since I graduated high school I went into straight into the automotive field. Its now been over 10 years.

You can always accept my answer now and we can still continue our conversation if you have more questions when your dad comes up in the morning. I wont leave you hanging.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

I'm SO sorry that this is taking me so long to resolve. I'm having to work on it in my spare time. We still can't get it to work. It seems we aren't getting power to the relay for the fuel pump. Any chance that you can tell me where to look for possible power issues to this? I have checked the fuse under the dash. Should this have power at all times when the key is on?

 

Thanks.

 

Stephanie

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.

Stephanie,

 

Sorry for the delay!

 

There should be two powers going into the fuel pump relay with the key on and cranking. WHich wire does not have power to it with the key on and cranking at the fuel pump relay?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OK....just got this checked. we have two powers. looking into the box from the front of the vehicle....that particular relay has power (with the key on) to the one nearest the back(blk/red) and on the far left (green).....sigh....but, the pump does not engage. We have it pulled out and laying in the back for diagnostics (so we can be sure to hear it) We thought the pump was bad....but, if we straight wire it from the battery it runs. Any further suggestions/questions?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
YES... does this relay get grounded or does this relay click when the key is turned on or when cranking the engine over?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I'm here by myself....can I turn the ignition switch on and pull the relay out and see if it clicks when I insert it back in?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Sorry for the delay!

Just got home from work

YES.. you should be able to test it that way. IF not, just see if the computer is sending a ground to this relay when turning the key on. You can use a test light to check for this. Just hook the test light up and see if it gets grounded when turning the key on.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
no click. It should click and feel just like the other relay in the say breaker box...right? It does NOT. :) what now?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok.. let me ask you this... does the check engine light come on with the key in the on position?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

yes it does. I went out and double checked it.

 

And please don't apologize for being so slow....this is taking me forever to get time to work on it.

 

Stephanie

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Stephanie,

Is this 2wd or 4wd?

Do you have a wiring diagram for the fuel pump circuit?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
this is 4WD.....and I think I have a wiring diagram. The pump is completely out of the tank so I can easily get to any of the wires.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok... what 4 color wires do you have going into the fuel pump relay on the vehicle?


Does it match what you have for a wiring diagram?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok.. this is what I have for a wiring diagram for the fuel pump relay.

graphic
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
apparently, mine is wired correctly.....what next?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok... we need to check for a ground coming into the fuel pump relay on the red wire. This should be grounded when the key is turned on for a second or two and then while cranking. You can check for this by using a test light. You would hook the alligator clip up to the battery positive and then touch the tip of your test light to this red wire and then turn the key on. The test light should light up when the key is turned and while cranking.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

I apologize but, I'll have to check this tomorrow when my dad is here with his test light. :( I will get back to you. I have high hopes of getting this running very soon. :)

 

Stephanie

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Sounds good!

I will be looking forward to your reply!
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Daddy did not bring up the test light...but, with the meter, and the key on...he's getting 8.8 Volts from the red and and with the key off he's getting 4.4......from the positive post of the battery. Does that help you at all? Or do we need to go dig the test light out?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
SO your saying that with the voltmeter leads hooked up (the red lead of your meter to battery positive and the black lead to the red wire that goes into the fuel pump relay) you get 8.8 volts while cranking the engine over?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Correct....except we've charged the battery a little and now we are getting....5.0 with the key NOT on and 9.5 with the key on or with cranking.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
How much voltage do you have at the battery itself key on and cranking?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
10.2 while cranking....and we are charging the battery....but, removed the charger while getting this reading.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok... the reading you gave me of 8.8 volts, was this with the relay plugged in or unplugged?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

not plugged in...we have it out to stick the lead down into.....

 

You must have the patience of Job! :)

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
:)


Ok... if you put the relay back in, does it click when you first turn the key on?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
NO clicking....same as last night.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok.. with the relay in place or plugged in and key on, if you run a jumper wire from battery ground to the red wire, does this relay click?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
YES...it clicks!!!! :) now what oh master of the electronics? :)
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
So it clicks?? DOes the fuel pump come on?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

yes sir it does! duh on me....exactly what do I do now??

 

btw...do you like older women....I just told my friend that I think I'm in love and I'm going to stalk you....lol. (j/k)

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Embarassed Awh... that is too sweet... I might not be as young as you think I am Wink

Anyway, it sounds to me like you either have bad EGI main relay or a bad crankshaft position sensor.

With the key on, check for battery voltage at any one of the fuel injectors, the Camshaft Position sensor, the Mass Air Flow Sensor or the Idle Air Control valve etc just to see if the EGI main relay is coming on. If no voltage at those components from the EGI main relay, feel for the EGI main relay to click when the key is turned ON. Unplug the EGI main relay and verify two terminals in the EGI main relay connector have battery voltage.
You could even swap the EGI main relay with the fuel pump relay to see if that helps. If the EGI main relay is working and those components have battery voltage key on and the Check Engine Light comes on key on, the check for engine RPM on the scan tool while cranking (if you have one) to try and determine of the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor is working. If not, you can check the crankshaft position sensor manually with your meter while the engine is cranking over.

I hope this helps. You can always accept my answer now, and repost back again later on if you have any more questions. If you want to discuss it some more just hit "reply", it's free to do so otherwise don't forget to hit "accept" and leave positive feedback if you found my answer helpful.

Regards

AMEDEE
Amedee, Kia Technician
Category: Kia
Satisfied Customers: 21972
Experience: ASE Master Technician advanced level specialist. Wisconsin certified emissions state inspector
Amedee and 3 other Kia Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

OK...NOW my dad wants to know where you live....we'll just bring it to you! lol....

 

ok....we already know that the EGI main relay is good...we've already tried swapping them and it even clicks without the key on. ...and we just checked...we do have voltage at the injectors...fyi.

 

We have an Actron meter but, apparently it doesn't do what you are asking. Could you possibly direct me to the crankshaft position sensor...sigh. I have printed out over 100 pages from my maintenance cd. Could we ground the red wire and be done with it?

 

Stephanie

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

OK...this thing just went crazy....I hope I didn't do something stupid...

 

BTW...no worries...you will get RAVE reviews.

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Thanks for the additional information! I did forget that you covered the EGI main relay...

You did say that the check engine light comes on with the key in the on position...correct?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
yes....it comes on....just double-double checked that.
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Ok... well, then we have a problem on our hands... the computer for some reason is simply not grounding the fuel pump relay. Even if the crnak sensor is bad, the computer should ground the fuel pump relay when the key is first turned on to prime the fuel system. IF this does not happen, you could have a bad computer or an open from the wire from the computer to the fuel pump relay.

Lets double check to be sure the computer is not grounding this fuel pump relay when turning the key on. You might have to have the key off for about 30 seconds or so to reset the system. THen after about 30 seconds, turn the key on and see if this red wire is getting grounded at or to the fuel pump relay. If not, then we need ot check it right at the computer.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
just to make sure I'm clear....isn't that where we're getting voltage? with the red meter wire on the positive post and the black meter wire on the red wire under the fuel pump relay....did I understand you exactly? (just trying to be clear) Daddy says his meter beeps if it's grounded (and just showed me) and it's not beeping....and that's where we are getting voltage.of 10 when we crank. did I misunderstand? Did I mention earlier that if we ground it, the fuel pump runs?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Yes... that is correct. The whole circuit works and the fuel pump runs if you ground the red wire. All we are missing is the ground from the computer to activate the fuel pump relay. THat is how the system works. The computer grounds the fuel pump relay to activate it.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

could you also tell me ...is the fuel pump supposed to run all the time or cycle somehow?

 

would I hurt anything to just direct ground the red wire? wouldn't that be the simpliest solution?

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
The fuel pump is supposed to run the entire time the engine is running. It is also supposed to run for a second or two when the key is on. That is it. If it runs when the engine is off, it will drain the battery.

Now.... lets just say that the fuel pump grounding issue was the only problem, then that would mean when you manually ground the fuel pump relay the pump should run and you should be able to start the vehicle. You can try to manually ground this red wire to activate the pump and see if the engine starts and runs.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
it runs.....can we do that permanently....and drive the care?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
YES... you can do this... just run a wire inside the vehicle to an on and off switch so that you can manually turn the fuel pump on and off so that the battery does not die overnight.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
we just tried it....IF the key is out.....and the relay grounded.....the pump does not run. IF the key is on....it runs!
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Well, heck. there you go.... then you are good to go without a switch.

Problem fixed!
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
All jokes aside.....is there some way for future car issues...(I have a small fleet! lol) that I can get directly back to you?
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
You bet!

You can always just come back to this site and request me. I am always on line.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

drove it down the road and back. yippee!

 

THANKS so much for all your help.

 

How old are you...you look SERIOUSLY young!....if you wish to answer.

 

Stephanie

Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Stephanie,

Sorry for the delay! I just stepped out for a bit and just got back.

I am 29 years young :) How old did you think I was?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
you look early 20's! I'm 51...(most say I don't look that old though....) Keep up the good work. :)
Expert:  Amedee replied 4 years ago.
Yeah... that is a very good guess. THat picture is now a few years old. It was taken in my early 20's a few years out of high school... 22 maybe 23. Now I am 29....I still look the same so I have not updated the picture yet..

Anyway, Its been nice working with you. I have even learned new things my self on this one. :) I appreciate the flattery ... if you know what I mean.

Take care and God Bless!

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Amedee
Amedee
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ASE Master Technician advanced level specialist. Wisconsin certified emissions state inspector