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Tim H.
Tim H., HVAC Professional
Category: HVAC
Satisfied Customers: 3108
Experience:  Experienced in all aspects of HVAC, both residential and commercial.
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My Carrier Weathermaker 8000, Model #58 WAV 091 4 -14, did

Customer Question

My Carrier Weathermaker 8000, Model #58 WAV 091 4 -14, did not come on today as the house cooled. I checked the air filter and it was very, very dirty. It is a washable type so I cleaned it thoroughly and dried it, and put it back in place. I looked for a reset button assuming that the low air flow has caused a high temperature cut-off switch to shut down the furnace. Could not find any reset. When I replaced the covers and turned the switch on the thermostat from 'OFF' to 'HEAT' nothing happened. When I turned the fan control switch from 'AUTO' to 'RUN' the fan came on but the burners did not.

I called my local gas utility, San Diego Gas & Electric and their service man is not available until Wednesday, March 21, four days from now. What else can I do to troubleshoot the furnace in the meantime. I am a retired Hydro-Mechanical Engineer having worked on Hydroelectric power plants for the last 45 years of my career, after 5-years in industrial and comerical HVAC. In hydro I did lots of start-up troubleshooting both mechanical and electrical circuits so I can do detailed technical troubleshooting.

I look forward to your assistance.
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: HVAC
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to help! I understand you are having issues with your furnace and I'm sorry to hear that. Let me try to help you troubleshoot. First off, since your furnace fan came on when you turned your fan switch to "on" we know the furnace has power. Now I'd like you to find the on-off switch on the side of the furnace to off and leave off for 30 seconds. During this 30 seconds, I want you to take the top furnace door off so you can view the inside of the furnace and burner area. Now turn the switch back on and tell me step by step what happens when you have a call for heat on your thermostat?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I do not recall their being an 'ON' /'OFF' switch on the outside of the furnace except the switch at the tthemostat. There is an 'ON'/'OFF' switch inside the top cover of the furnace. I'll go look now for a switch on the outside.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Otherwise, if no switch on the furnace, use the circuit breaker on your panel. This will do the same thing.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
OK, will try circuit breaker and inside switch both.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
OK, I'll wait for your reply.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I turned the furnace back on in the following sequence: 1- Turned Curcuit Breaker 'ON', 2- Turned thermost switch to 'heat', 3- Turned switch inside heater to 'ON', 4- Raised thermostat set point to above house temperature.

Furnace immediately sounded like it started, i.e., the gas jets roared as though they were on, the external wheel attached to the burner exhaust fan was spinning.

However there was no heat going up the flame exhaust vent and the main fan did not come on, after a couple three minutes the roar of the gasm jets reduced to almost nothing.
A minute later the roar again started. Again no heat up the vent, and no main furnace fandid not come on, after a couple three minutes the roar of the gasm jets reduced to almost nothing.

Repeat of this same cycle a third time. After 2nd and 3rd time I could faintly smell gas.

After third cycle the furnace shut down completely, including the exhaust fan and the external wheel (fan running indicator) stopped spinning.

At this point I turned the gas inlet valve 'OFF'.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Ok, now this next time, I don't want you to touch any thing inside the furnace such as the gas valve switch. Leave these alone. Do the same thing again as you did last time (turn power off, then back on), let furnace do it's thing, and as soon as it stops, look inside the small window on the lower door and you should see a flash code. Count the number of short and the number of long flashes and write this down. Then take the lower furnace door off and you should see a flash code legend. This will tell you what the flashes mean. I'll need that information.
Tim H., HVAC Professional
Category: HVAC
Satisfied Customers: 3108
Experience: Experienced in all aspects of HVAC, both residential and commercial.
Tim H. and 5 other HVAC Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Nothing happened this time when I turned everything back on. Then I couldn't reply to you and got an error message with 29 digits/characteres.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
That's strange. Are you sure when you turned the heat back on that you checked thermostat and it was calling for heat? Did you have lower furnace door firmly on?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
All switches were back 'ON', Thermostat set point was 75, house temp 63, lower furnace door on and seated.

I did shut off the gas after our first try, but turned it back on well before turning the switches this last

What we did basically was what I had tried befor contacting you, but not as methodical in recording events. I never saw the status LED blinking, but I didn't look at it as it was operating and/or shutting down
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
We may have a thermostat issue. What I'd like you to do this time is turn furnace power off, look inside the lower furnace door and find the control that contains all the thermostat wires. You should have terminals marked R,W,G, Y, and so forth. Fashion a small jumper wire out of some wire in your house (the smaller diameter the better) and jumper the terminals R to W. Then turn power back on. Again, watch the furnace and see what happens. Look for the flash code if furnace shuts down.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I'll give it a try and record the results, including flash codes.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
OK, keep me posted.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I tried it again as you suggested, with a jumper between "R" and "W". Same furnace response, but no flash codes of any sort. By the way the window to view the flash codes is in the top panel cover, not the bottom cover.

I'm pretty sure the LED is what I looking at, however it looks somewhat similar to the Hex screew heads on the exhaust blower cover. I looked very thoroughly and can find nothing else that looks like a 'LED'.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
You may have a downflow furnace then. As you can see from this manual, the furnace control is in the bottom section of the furnace and that would be where the LED light is located, on the furnace control. In any case, if you can obtain a voltmeter, take the door off and locate the furnace control where you jumped across R-W. Tape the blower door switch in and take a voltage reading across C (or common) to R. You should read 24 volts.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
If you do not read 24 volts, look for a small 3 amp fuse that may be blown. This would be on the furnace control, if you had one. Some furnaces have them, some don't.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
I'm going to log off for a few hours, but will check back again towards morning.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
It's now 2:30 AM here and I'm getting Rummy. My voltmeter is out in the garage and I'm not up to going further at this time. How can I arrange to get back in touch with you tomorrow and continue our troubleshooting?

The furnace is definitely an YP-draft model. The viewing port is definitely in the top cover.
The afore mentioned terminal block with W, R, G, & Y is behind the lower panel cover.
Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
Hello,

I see Tim is offline. Do you need assistance going further?

Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
I will be available for replies throughout the day. I have some things to do today, but will recheck my questions frequently. Regardless of where the viewing window is, it should allow you to see the LED status light. Perhaps the manual I sent you the link for is a slightly different model, but generally the furnaces are very similar. I want to make sure that you have 24 volts across C-R at the control. You may have a blown transformer. By the way, when you are down by the furnace control, write down the model number of the control and provide me with that.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Tim,

I finally found the LED Status indicator. It is located on the gas control unit, but it is not visible unless you use a mirror or get your head down on to the furnace support floor. It is below an extended portion of the control just below the thermostat wiring terminals. I would not have found it except for going over the entire furnace interior with my wife’s cosmetic mirror and looking in under and behind every inch of the furnace. There is no way anyone can see it with the lower compartment cover in place. Nowhere near the observation window in the upper compartment cover panel.

The gas controller is an “HSCI Furnace Control” to use with all gasses.

· CAN/CSA-622.2 # XXXXX;

· 1012-940 Model HK42FZo11

Carrier Furnace LED STATUS CODE

Initially I got the code * _ _ Dot Dash Dash = Code 12,

From decal on upper door panel is the following:

Code 12 = “BLOWER ON AFTER POWER UP” (115 VAC or 24 VAC)

Blower runs for 90 seconds, if unit is powered up during a call for heat (Red-White closed).

Next test with ‘lower compartment cover in place switch’ taped closed I got the following code:
* * * _ _ _ = 3 dots 4 dashes = Code 34

From decal on upper door panel is the following:

Code 34 = “IGNITION PROVIDING FAILURE”

Control will try three more times before lockout #14 occurs. If flame signal lost after trial for ignition period, blower will come on for 90 second recycle delay. Check for:

· Oxide build-up on flame sensor (clean with fine steel wool).

· Proper flame sense microamps(.5 microamps D.C. min., 4.0 to 6.0 nominal).

· Gas valve defective or gas valve turned “OFF”.

· Defective hot surface ignitor.

· Manual gas valve shut-off.

· Low inlet gas pressure.

· Control ground continuity.

· Green wire MUST be connected to furnace sheet metal.

· Inadequate flame carryover or rough ignition.

· Flame sensor must be ungrounded.

Test for voltage revealed no AC or DC voltage between “C” (common) and “R” terminals.

Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
I'm guessing this could be as simple as a dirty flame sensor. Remove the flame sensor and "shine up" with steel wool or emery cloth, then retry.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Tim,
There was never any flame to sense. I don't think the hot surface ignitor ever got hot. I certainly never saw a orange glow from anywhere. I can't tell just where or what the hot surface ignitor is, so I don't exactly know where to be looking, but I have not seen anything that looked hot.

Andy
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Andy, it would be strange to get an LED code from the control as you said you did (code 12, code 34) with no burners ever lighting or anything UNLESS the control itself is defective.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I've never seen any sign of flame or felt any warmth on the exhaust vent. So I figured that it might be that the ignitor isn't working. By the way , did you see that I didn't read any voltage (AC or DC) between terminals "R" and "C"? Certainly not the 24 volts you said I should be reading.

Andy
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
I did. Let's double check that. Make sure furnace power is on, blower safety switch is pushed in, and that you have voltmeter set on volts AC. Check between the C or common terminal and the R terminal. Check again from the R terminal to a furnace ground. If no 24 volts (and you're confident that meter is OK, then I would say that either a fuse is blown (as I mentioned before, some furnaces have a 3 amp fuse on the control) OR the transformer has blown.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I'm not sure what you mean by the "BLOWER SAFETY SWITCH"?
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
On most furnaces, when you take off the bottom door, there is a switch that must be made for the furnace to have power. It would be helpful if you could upload a couple of pictures of your furnace from the front with door on and door off, so I know we are talking about the same furnace. But, if that's impossible, we'll just have to work with what we have. To upload pictures to the site, use the small little picture of a chain link at the top of the answer box.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I'll take a couple of photos and send them. It will take a few minutes.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
OK, keep me posted.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Somehow my download from my camera has locked up most of my computer except for JustAnswer.

While taking the photos I closed the switch on the lower compartment panel in place and the furnace started to restart. Never any flame, and when I went to shut it off and opened the circuit breaker the fan continued to run????? I switched the thermostat to off and moved the set point down to 45 degrees and still the fan kept running. So I removed the lower compartment panel cover and everything shut down????

I'll keep trying to free up my computer from the photo download problem and get back to you
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
This would happen either with an open high limit or if the 3 amp fuse on your control was blown. In the link I sent ( page 4) showing the control model you gave me, if you look at the picture of the old control, it shows a 3 amp fuse. Did you ever check this to see if it was blown?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Not yet, Haven't found the fuse.

Meanwhile I downloaded my photos and am sending them now. graphic

Let me know if you get the picture of the furnace with panel covers on?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I finally found the fuse, it is intact and has not blown.

I can't figure out how to attach a photo on your site. I click on the paper clip ATTACH FILE and get a screen with browse in the box, but when I click on browse and nothing happens.
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Let's not worry about the photos (they didn't come through, anyways). If the fuse is OK, and the fan continues to run, then this would point to an open high limit, draft safeguard, or flame rollout switch. On some models they used a fusible link and on some, auxiliary limits. You never told me this before, that the fan was running constantly. This is important because if the one of the limits is open, it would also prevent the burner from coming on! The high limit on your furnace can be seen in the manual link I sent earlier and looks like this. It can be checked by shutting furnace power off and running a jumper wire across between the two wires going to it, then turning power back on. This is only a test and should NEVER BE LEFT THIS WAY! The flame rollout switches have to be manually reset. The main limit or fusible link (when used) have to be replaced.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Tim,

I did a more thorough search and found the following:

Found and tested ‘Draft Safeguard Switch,’ it was closed (near zero ohms).

Found the ‘High Temperature Cutout’ (it is not a switch) and inline Fuse; both tested OK (closed with near zero Ohms).

Found that there is only one ‘Hot Surface Ignitor’ (on the right gas burner tube); checked and it has NO continuity (infinite Ohms) between the two leads at the closest connector.

One of my difficulties on this troubleshooting exercise is that I don’t recognize the OEM controls on consumer appliances. They don’t look at all like the “Utility Grade” controls that I was so used to in hydroelectric powerhouses.

Let me know if the open ‘Hot Surface Ignitor’ circuit is the problem. Isn’t it supposed to get hot due to current flow across a resistance? (i.e., Power = I2 * R).

I have NOT yet removed the jumper between 'W' & 'R', let me know if and when I should.

Andy

Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Normally if an HSI is bad, you will see a thin white line through the gray element. But you definitely should get some ohm reading through the ignitor. As a test, you could apply 120 volts directly to it and see if it glows. What's got me stumped is the fan running continuously with thermostat in fan "auto" position. Normally this would point to an open limit, but it sounds like you checked them all. As a test, measure voltage across C-G at the control board with thermostat in fan "auto" position. You should not read any voltage unless the thermostat is defective.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Tim,

There is NO Voltage across terminals 'C' & 'G'.
With 120 VAC applied to the leads to the 'Hot Surface Ignitor' there is NO GLOW whatsoever.

At the top the Ignitor looks like two letter 'nn's side by side with no connection across the top, I cannot see the bottom. I appears to be a thin piece of flat metal with each strip 0.015" thick by 0.063" wide. (i.e., paper thin by 1/32" wide).

Andy
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Tim H,

I removed the 'Hot Surfsce Ignitor' and foumd it is broken with a 1/16" gap. It appears to be sintered carbon material in the shape of a letter "M". The letter "M" is modified to be three or four times taller than the normal proportions, and all the up and down strokes are true verticals with rounded over tops and the bottom center is just filled in for the bottom third. The upstroke from bottom center has the gap. It was not visible in place because there was a white crust on the ignitor where it was in the flame and the white crust covered up the gap, hiding it.

Where do I go to get replacement part for Carrier? What would be the heading to look for in the Yellow Pages? Or do I look it up 'online?'

Andy
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I found it 'online at " http://www.arnoldservice.com/bryant_carrier_parts.htm " with a picture of it. It is part #271M-LH33ZS004, the same as the one shown online. Now to find who has it in stock in North San Diego County.

I will clean of the scale build-up on the flame sensor, and pull the jumper across 'W' / 'R'. And replace the Hot Surface Ignitor with a new one. Anything else I need to do and or check?

Andy
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
No, not really. Sounds like we're good to go. Good luck!
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I'm off to Appliance Parts Center to get a replacement 'Hot Surface Ignitor' and will give it a try. The old 'Ignitor' has its part number on it and Appliance Parts Center shows the same part in their online catalog.

Will keep you posted.

Andy
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
Thanks, Andy!
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Tim,

We did it! After remembering to turn the gas back on and fremembering to turn the Gas controller switch back on, the furnace lighted like a charm.

Everything seems to be in order, but I did not cancel the San Diego Gas & Electric service man's trip out here tomorrow morning. I want to make sure it is adjusted correctly, and have his confirmation that all is correct. I still believe in the "belt and suspenders" approach.

Thank you ever so much for your guidance, between you, the Carrier manual, and a lot of searching I now know a lot more about my furnace and what the various control components look like. It was a good education. By the way the 'ignitor' cost $37.51 at Appliance Service Center. The cost is less over the internet (before shipping and sales tax if from CA) so it probably comes out the same, but this way was quicker.

Now, how do I release my deposit and get you paid? You were worth every penny of the charge and I want "JustAnswer" to know how pleased I am with your assistance.

Andy Powers, San Marcos, CA
Expert:  Tim H. replied 2 years ago.
I was paid when you hit the accept button, but tips are always appreciated. Glad we got you going, even though it took a while!! Thanks for using Just Answer.

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