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Chad Farhat
Chad Farhat, ASE Certified Technician A6 - Electrical / Electronic systems A7 Heating / Air conditioning systems
Category: Honda
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Experience:  Owner at Carolina Auto service & Sales , 20 years Experience in Foreign & Domestic vehicles
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I have 2013 honda civic si k24z7, after a transmission job,

Customer Question

I have 2013 honda civic si k24z7, after a transmission job, I got p1659 code. we checked the the relays, replaced throttle paddle, PCM, engine harness and throttle body and nothing worked. soon as you turn the key to on position the light comes on. Also we checked the pin from ECU to fuse box & all the wire have continuity. We can't clear it with a scanner either.
Submitted: 6 months ago.
Category: Honda
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

Hi , my name is ***** ***** I will be assisting you today

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
Thanks, ***** ***** be next thing to check?
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

make sure you go over the trans job for anything left t loose or touching the frame first

I m going to send you the step by step trouble shooting .

advanced Diagnostics - DTC P1659: Electronic Throttle Control System (ETCS) Control Relay OFF Malfunction (Engine Type: K24Z7) General Description

The electronic throttle control system controls the throttle valve opening. The system includes the throttle actuator, the throttle valve, throttle position (TP) sensors A and B, the electronic throttle control system (ETCS) control relay, the accelerator pedal position (APP) sensor, and the engine control module (ECM). When the accelerator pedal is pressed, the APP sensor detects the accelerator pedal opening value. The accelerator pedal opening value is converted to a signal in the APP sensor and transmitted to the ECM to compute the target position. The ECM determines the throttle valve target position according to the signal received and operates the throttle actuator to move the throttle valve to the target position. The actual throttle valve position is determined by TP sensors A and B (installed in the throttle body). When the voltage from the ETCS control relay is not input for a set time after the ETCS control relay is turned on when the ignition switch is turned to ON (II), or when voltage is not applied for a set time when the throttle actuator is operating, the ECM detects a malfunction in the ETCS control relay power switch and stores a DTC.

Monitor Execution, Sequence, Duration, DTC Type, OBD Status

Enable Conditions

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Malfunction Threshold
The voltage is not applied from the ETCS control relay for at least 200 milliseconds.

Possible Cause

NOTE: The causes shown may not be a complete list of all potential problems, and it is possible that there may be other causes.

- ETCS control relay failure
- Throttle actuator fuse failure
- ETCS control relay VB ETCS line open
- ETCS control relay DBW_RLY_CL- line open
- ECM failure

Diagnosis Details

Conditions for setting the DTC
When a malfunction is detected, the MIL comes on and a Pending DTC, a Confirmed DTC, and the freeze data are stored in the ECM memory.

Conditions for clearing the DTC
The MIL is cleared if the malfunction does not return in three consecutive trips in which the diagnostic runs. The MIL, the Pending DTC, the Confirmed DTC, and the freeze data can be cleared with the scan tool Clear command or by disconnecting the battery.

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

These are the troubleshooting step you should do on it .

Vehicle » A L L Diagnostic Trouble Codes ( DTC ) » Testing and Inspection » P Code Charts » P1659 » DTC Troubleshooting

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2013 Honda Civic Coupe L4-2.4L (K24Z7)

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Control System DTCs DTC Troubleshooting: P1659

DTC P1659 : ETCS Control Relay OFF Malfunction

NOTE: Before you troubleshoot, record all freeze data and any on-board snapshot, and review the general troubleshooting information See: Computers and Control Systems > Initial Inspection and Diagnostic Overview > How To Troubleshoot The Fuel And Emissions Systems.

1. Problem verification:

Problem verification
-1.Turn the ignition switch to ON (II).

-2.Clear the DTC with the HDS.

-3.Check for Pending or Confirmed DTCs with the HDS.

Is DTC P1659 indicated?
-YES- The failure is duplicated. Go to step 2.
-NO- Intermittent failure, the system is OK at this time. Check for poor connections or loose terminals at the ETCS control relay and the ECM.

2. Determine possible failure area (VB ETCS line or +B_ETCS line, others):

Determine possible failure area (VB ETCS line or +B_ETCS line, others)
-1.Turn the ignition switch to LOCK (0).

-2.Check the following fuse.

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Is the fuse OK?
-YES- Go to step 3.
-NO- Go to step 9.

3. ETCS control relay test:

ETCS control relay test
-1.Remove the ETCS control relay (A) from the under-dash fuse/relay box.

-2.Test the ETCS control relay See: Power Distribution Relay > Component Tests and General Diagnostics > Power Relay Test.

Is the ETCS control relay OK?
-YES- The ETCS control relay is OK. Go to step 4.
-NO- Replace the ETCS control relay, then do the repair verification.

4. Determine possible failure area (under-dash fuse/relay box, others):

Determine possible failure area (under-dash fuse/relay box, others)
-1.Turn the ignition switch to ON (II).

-2.Measure the voltage between test points 1 and 2.

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Is there battery voltage?
-YES- Go to step 5.
-NO- Replace the under-dash fuse/relay box See: Relay Box > Removal and Replacement > Under-Dash Fuse/Relay Box Removal And Installation (KA Models), then do the repair verification.

5. Determine possible failure area (+B_ETCS line, others):

Determine possible failure area (+B_ETCS line, others)
-1.Measure the voltage between test points 1 and 2.

Is there battery voltage?
-YES- Go to step 7.
-NO- Go to step 6.

6. Open wire check (+B_ETCS line):

Open wire check (+B_ETCS line)
-1.Turn the ignition switch to LOCK (0).

-2.Disconnect the following connector.

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-3.Measure the voltage between test points 1 and 2.

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Is there battery voltage?
-YES- The +B_ETCS wire is OK. Replace the under-dash fuse/relay box, then do the repair verification.
-NO- Repair an open in the +B_ETCS wire between the No. A22 (15 A) fuse and the under-dash fuse/relay box, then do the repair verification.

7. Open wire check (VB ETCS, ETCS_RLY_OUT lines):

Open wire check (VB ETCS, ETCS_RLY_OUT lines)
-1.Turn the ignition switch to LOCK (0).

-2.Jump the SCS line with the HDS.

-3.Disconnect the following connector.

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-4.Check for continuity between test points 1 and 2.

Is there continuity?
-YES- The VB ETCS/ETCS_RLY_OUT wires are OK. Go to step 8.
-NO- Repair an open in the VB ETCS/ETCS_RLY_OUT wire between the ECM (C1) and the ETCS control relay, then do the repair verification.

8. Open wire check (ETCS_RLY_CL- line):

Open wire check (ETCS_RLY_CL- line)
-1.Disconnect the following connector.

-2.Check for continuity between test points 1 and 2.

Is there continuity?
-YES- The ETCS_RLY_CL- wire is OK. Update the ECM See: Engine Control Module > Programming and Relearning > ECM/PCM Update if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM See: Engine Control Module > Removal and Replacement > ECM Removal And Installation, then do the repair verification.
-NO- Repair an open in the ETCS_RLY_CL- wire between the ECM (A48) and the ETCS control relay, then do the repair verification.

9. Shorted wire check (VB ETCS, ETCS_RLY_OUT lines):

Shorted wire check (VB ETCS, ETCS_RLY_OUT lines)
-1.Remove the ETCS control relay (A) from the under-hood fuse/relay box.

-2.Jump the SCS line with the HDS.

-3.Disconnect the following connector.

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-4.Check for continuity between test points 1 and 2.

Is there continuity?
-YES- Repair a short in the VB ETCS/ETCS_RLY_OUT wire between the ECM (C1) and the ETCS control relay, then do the repair verification.
-NO- The VB ETCS/ETCS_RLY_OUT wires are OK. Go to step 10.

10.Determine possible failure area (+B_ETCS line, ECM):

Determine possible failure area (+B_ETCS line, ECM)
-1.Check for continuity between test points 1 and 2.

Is there continuity?
-YES- Go to step 11.
-NO- Update the ECM See: Engine Control Module > Programming and Relearning > ECM/PCM Update if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM See: Engine Control Module > Removal and Replacement > ECM Removal And Installation, then do the repair verification.

11.Shorted wire check (+B_ETCS line):

Shorted wire check (+B_ETCS line)
-1.Disconnect the following connector.

-2.Check for continuity between test points 1 and 2.

Is there continuity?
-YES- Repair a short in the +B_ETCS wire between the No. A22 (15 A) fuse and the under-dash fuse/relay box, then do the repair verification.
-NO- The +B_ETCS wire is OK. Update the ECM See: Engine Control Module > Programming and Relearning > ECM/PCM Update if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM See: Engine Control Module > Removal and Replacement > ECM Removal And Installation, then do the repair verification.

Repair verification:

-1.Turn the ignition switch to LOCK (0).

-2.Reconnect all connectors.

-3.Turn the ignition switch to ON (II).

-4.Reset the ECM with the HDS See: Computers and Control Systems > Initial Inspection and Diagnostic Overview > How To Troubleshoot The Fuel And Emissions Systems.

-5.Do the ECM idle learn procedure See: Engine Control Module > Programming and Relearning > ECM Idle Learn Procedure.

-6.Check for Pending or Confirmed DTCs with the HDS.

Is DTC P1658 indicated?
-YES- Check for poor connections or loose terminals at the ETCS control relay and the ECM. If the ECM was updated, substitute a known-good ECM See: Engine Control Module > Removal and Replacement > ECM Removal And Installation, then recheck. If the ECM was substituted, go to step 1.
-NO- Troubleshooting is complete. If the ECM was substituted, replace the original ECM See: Engine Control Module > Removal and Replacement > ECM Removal And Installation. If any other Pending or Confirmed DTCs are indicated, go to the indicated DTC's troubleshooting.

© 2016 ALLDATA, LLC. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Use (Version 2.0.13792)

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

Did You check fuse #22 in the engine compartment ?

these are the diagrams that goes with step by step troubleshoot

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

more

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

more

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

Did you check the ETC Relay , try replacing it with another , if not circuit needs checking

Thank You
Chad ( aka -Customer )

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

let me know If you need anything else , I m online daily from 8 till 12 pm

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
Fuse 22 for dbw is fine, the etcs relay is getting power however when we ground the connector 48 from pcm we get a different code p1658 However we are able to clear the dtcs if its not grounded we can't clear dtc code
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

ok that is good to know you told me that .

I m going to pull the wiring diagram and follow the circuit & see what is going on for you hopefully .

This will take me a little time I will get back to you with an answer by tomorrow .

its going to be wiring or you fried the PCM but hopefully not .

Thank You
Chad ( aka -Customer/p>

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

the p1659 or p1658 is the same fault caused by an open or a bad pcm

the trouble shoot for the p1659 is the same

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
We thought the ECU was fried as well, we got another ECU and it made no difference. We switch our ECU with another same car as mine and it didn't throw this code. I'll send you the invoice write up from a shop that caused the problem & follow up shops. This car been to Honda dealership & they couldn't figure it out, after 2 weeks they gave up on it. Connector A48 is getting grounded at the ECU transistor, however, when we create a manual ground from there then we get a Open Relay malfunction code vs OFF relay. I'm curious what ETC system is looking for when key is ON(II) position. Also, when connector A48 from relay side is grounded manually & ECU side is grounded separately but not connected directly then once we clear the dtc the light goes away longest but it comes back after 4-5 on/off cycles.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

oh man , I'm sorry you having that much problems with it

ok I will try to answer your questions , but just understand we have a complicated situation and I might not have a definite answer on these kind of problems but i will study the flow of the circuit and give you my best opinion of what is causing it .

and please send me what you have on it

I have a shop for over 20 years now , yes components do fail and it could be a coincidence but the chances of being related to trans work issue is on the high side , It will be hard to confirm it , but that code did not exist before the trans repair.

I will get back to you as soon as I can

Thank You
Chad ( aka -Customer )

Customer: replied 6 months ago.
This is all the services done on it so far, before the dealership I took to another shop to clean out the transmission with speed sensor debris and got a new speed sensor installed correctly.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 6 months ago.

hey how are you

ok great , let me look them over and I will get back to you as soon as I can

Thanks

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Hey how are you? Where you able to look into this at all?
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

hey i m good how are you ,I m sorry for the delay , I did read over the notes,

why is the ckp keep getting chewed up , it is the installation of trans is the issue here, from what the dealer did looks they done all the necessary steps to diagnose the problem

you have to go back to the transmission itself , what will cause this , improper instalation or internal part damage that is showing the sensor , before i trouble shoot anything electrical I would wan to address that first , its beyond me why deealer kept doing electrical trouble shoot and changing ecu & gaz pedal etc before addressing that problem.

this transmission needs to be taking down and tore apart and fix the interference with the speed sensor

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

you have no speedometer and that is throwing it in limp mode .

The cluster cant see the speed sensor neither do the pcm , so it is throwing it in limp mode

A Positive rating is Much Appreciated

This Post Will Stay Open Even after You Rate Me For You To Come Back And Ask Me Anything Follow Up Questions You May have On This Issue.

Thank You
Chad Farhat ( aka -Customer)

ASE Certified Tech

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

I meant speed sensor not ckp , its been a long day.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
We placed a new speed sensor in it before going to the dealer. The transmission has taller forged gears than original so the speed sensor was not shimmed or spaced out on the original job. It was later taken care of when re-open the transmission. Only thing now is that speed shows different speed than it actually is due to taller gears. However, speed sensor is connected and working. When we replaced my ecu to another car to see if ecu got burned out, that car was there for clutch job at the dealer and it was sitting there without the transmission. It didn't throw this P1659 code when we swapped the ecu with that car. I'm more curious to find out, what ETC System procedures are when you spin the key to ON(II) before turning the car on.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

I see now

let me see what I have on the ETC procedure and I will send it to you .probably be tomorrow until i get back to you on that if that's okay

Chad

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Please do as soon as possible, side note, this is a manual 6 speed transmission.
Thanks.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

hey sorry for the delay , just been extremely busy .I cant find anything as far as the ETCS itself but the there is testing for accelerator pedal .

the way I understand it

1- switch on , power to Acc pedal & TB

2- push on throttle pedal , ecu grounds them both and also needs to see other signal simultaneously : crank sensor , speedo sensor , mass airflow, etc .

do u have ground coming in to them , is it intermittent, are we losing it when it is getting hot

this a tough one i have to say, you have covered all your bases , I m sorry you having this issue , I wish I had a better answer for you, this one is a car that I usually after we shut the doors at my shop . I will work on all night with nobody bothering me , it always turns out to be something simple.sorry again , i just cant confirm for you is for what is going on but i believe we have an issue with a ground or It could be a simple ECU software issue and these are tough to deal with sometimes.

thank you

Chad Farhat

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

Vehicle » Powertrain Management » Computers and Control Systems » Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor » Testing and Inspection » Component Tests and General Diagnostics» APP Sensor Signal Inspection

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2013 Honda Civic Sedan L4-2.4L (K24Z7)

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Service Information APP Sensor Signal Inspection Inspection 1. HDS DLC - Connection

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1. Connect the HDS to the data link connector (DLC) (A) located under the driver's side of the dashboard.

2. Turn the ignition switch to ON (II).

3. Make sure the HDS communicates with the vehicle. If it does not communicate, go to the DLC circuit troubleshooting.

2. App Sensor Signal - Inspection

Zoom and Print Options

NOTE:
* This procedure checks the APP sensor in its fully closed position (pedal not pressed). In any other position, the APP sensor stores DTCs which are covered in other troubleshooting procedures.
* Check for Pending or Confirmed DTCs with the HDS before doing this procedure. If any DTCs are indicated, troubleshoot them first, then do this procedure.
* Press the accelerator pedal several times to check its operation. If it does not operate smoothly, check the pedal. If you find a problem, replace the accelerator pedal module.

1. Connect the HDS to the data link connector (DLC) (A) located under the driver's side of the dashboard.

2. Turn the ignition switch to ON (II).

3. Make sure the HDS communicates with the ECM. If it doesn't, go to the DLC circuit troubleshooting.

4. Make sure the accelerator pedal is not pressed, then check the APP SENSOR in the DATA LIST with the HDS.

* If it is 0 %, the APP sensor is OK.

* If it is not 0 %, update the ECM if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM, then go to next step.

5. With the accelerator pedal not pressed, check the APP SENSOR in the DATA LIST with the HDS.

* If it is 0 %, the APP sensor is OK.

* If it is not 0%, replace the accelerator pedal module, then recheck.

© 2016 ALLDATA, LLC. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Use (Version 2.0.13792)

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Thanks for effort, I'm planning to convert this car back to stock & selling it as is. Ever since we replaces that transmission we been having this issue. Are you able to get semantics for speed sensor & all the sensors, connections going into this transmission correlates with ETCS relay or ECU?, Also, Traction control & Vehicle Stability Control. My buddy has the same car so I'm gonna unplug his transmission & see if it causes the same issue or not.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 5 months ago.

I m really sorry for the troubles you having with it , I wish I could have done better for you, it is a uniques situation you are having with it .

This is a hard one to figure out over the phone , but i agree the problem started with R&R of that transmission .

Please dont forget to rate me since that is how we get compensated

Thank You

Chad Farhat ( aka -Customer )
ASE Certified Technician