yes.... We tie a small boat to the bulk head.
AH It is called a "Dock" here in California. Just judging from what I see in the picture you still have the main timbers. The higher price is most likely to replace the whole thing, which may be advisable. I really cant say from just a picture. The lower one is just to repair the existing dock.
my bro said the quote was for replacing the whole thing and using the plastic type fake wood...Is that being used nowadays? ...but here is another pic of the other side of the dock...my dad always used the word bulk head and i simply never had the need to clarify until now...lol.. But i will use dock from now on. The left side and the right side where the damaged dock is, is seperated by an area of about 6 ft that has a step down ...I can't find a pic yet....
He is probably referring to "Trex" or the equivelent. It is a composite material made partially of recycled car tire rubber. It is some great stuffg, but it is pricey!To give you a "guestamate" of the cost to do this I will need a good set of pictures from on shore and off if possible.
i will try to snap one tomorrow,,,thanks so far....
I know this much also,,, the $16k bid is going to take 2 years because of the waiting list.... The $6k is going to begin this week and wants a deposit tomorrow...yikes,,, so i am wanting to do it now before it gets cold and we get more erosion.... But maybe they won;t get a permit? We did the other side ourselves.. we just replaced the beams of wood that were already there one by one.....
The $16k bidder might be coming into the property via the canal but the cheaper bid was going to come from the street with a machine of some kind. Tractor?.. my concern is that it is too heavy and it will budge the dirt on the part of the yard that slopes down to the dock
ok...ill take pics tomorrow,,,thanks gnight
ok, im loading more pics
hi i did not see this request that i rate your service,,,,,i prefer you see the pics before i rate since we didn't really evaluate anything except to determine that it is a dock and not a bulk head... ;)
Just answers will send me a notice that i shouldn't rate untill i am done..
Sorry for the delay replying. Had a long day in the field today. Please do not rate until we are done here. What I need is a picture of the whole dock. Preferably from different angles. pictures that show the whole thing, not just parts of it.
The close ups are helpful for determining the materials needed but I cant estimate the job that way.
Thank you. Best, Smitty
The real long photo is a panoramic view of 2 photos added together so it is a bit uneven where one side joins with the other,, so it looks like half the dock is sloping down,, but it really isn;t...
It is a noisy as hell boat....And the price might be a trade for the boat actually...lol....
The whole thing was going to be redone. Not just replacing the planks on the top. The planks of wood facing the water and in the water would be driven down with pressure, not vibration. He was going to order recycled plastic,,,,(my father wants vinyl and i thought that was the same,,,,But the price was alot and we are thinking of wood now,,,,,
ANd then instead of the fat round things,,Pilings?...,they would be 4x4 beams driven down...Most people just have a retaining wall and no beams. If we have those big round things, then it chews up a foot of space and we have a very small tight spot and so i am thinking the more narrow beams are good enough...?
i think i am misunderstanding what a retaining wall is. The wood is going to be left there and new wood will be driven down in front of it. My understanding is that another wall will be created 5 ft back. So i think there will be 2 walls. And a deck on top. And the part that sunk forward is going to be straightend and pushed back to make a straight line because it exceeds into the water. Is that what you mean? We can create a new line and add about a foot of land? When our neighbor has a boat, it gets a bit tight in the water so i think he would fret about our land increasing into the water area.
We are on a 2 year waiting list for the certified dock builders...but we feel afraid to wait.. and this is why we want to begin now. I am assuming that a retaining wall is going to be built because he mentioned two rows of wall. One were the dock planks begin at the grass and another at the water. He mentioned that we need a few truck loads of fill.
ohhh....wow.. that was great
clarifying is great..now i just have to bug the guy to ask what he was going to do
just for clarity,.. the 2nd drawing you made did not have the 2nd row like in the first drawing.... Is that because the 2nd row does not have to be built if there is a retention wall?
, on your drawing to the right...The thicker wood is the piling? Are you considering the piling to be the big round ones spaced apart or the 4 x4 kind spaced apart and driven down?
So behind those would go 2 x 10 planks laid horizontally?
I can see that the drawing is a side shot... . He was clear about not using the large round pilings and instead using the squarish pilings about 4 x 4 in size like the neighbor has across the canal.
Wouldn't that suffice if we don;t have fast water current because there is a turn in the canal about 25 houses away so the water flow slows down.
Maybe he is going to lay the 2 x 10 horizontally anyway? he said he was going to put them right in front of the exsisting planks.
Perhaps the 2nd row will also have a retention wall with planks of wood laid horizontally but he simply did not explain it to me?
( my hope is that the 4x4 is actually 6x6....He did not say 4x4... but he pointed to wood near the deck that looked like the size of a post....But then he also pointed to the house across the canal as a sample of how to wrap the square edges...So if he is going to lay wood in front of the wood that is already there, i can't imagine them not being laid horizontally. because otherwise it would be verticle against verticle pilings so that doesn't make sense.
oh... and also, does it really matter if Trex will be used or pressure treated? The thought of all those chemicals seeping into the canal really bothers me. We eat the eels and they are bottom feeders... I cook it japanese style. I know the Trek has 2 kinds. Recycled plastic and vinyl. The vinyl has 24 years warranty and is new right...but cost 20 % more and we still have $14,000 in back taxes to pay..So we are soo behind and did not qualify for any hurricane loans...
My other concern was that although the big fat pilings look awesome,, the space to put a boat is so small because we share a corner with the neighbor and when we both have a boat in the water, it is really tight. The fat diameter of the larger round piling seems like overkill. I am ok with a smaller profile as opposed to having the chunkier pilings if they can give us the same protection or other enforcements are incorporated...My hope is that the 2nd row 5 ft back will also be made as a retention wall?
OH? My father was thinking that the dock part that hits the water could be made with vinyl. SO he is mistaken? The last 2 in this article are not for putting inside salt water or for building the retaining horizontal planks for the retaining wall?
Ahhhh,,,, you caught that....i saw dock in the description so i wasn;t clear....Well that settles it. We have no choice but to use wood. Plastic for the top is ok, but not for the part that goes inside the water. What about metal? My father suggested metal? Is that cheaper? THat is kind of another question but i will tip accordingly
here is the recycled plastic lumber that is water friendly..,can you tell me if it is ok? ALso, the builder has this design in mind.. to keep a neet look on the outside since it is a tight space so the boat has more room..
Ok. Give me a few more minuets to do the drawing.Actually if you could give me till the morning it will allow me to be more detailed.
AW NUTZ! Had this all typed up and ....oops! Built more than a few. Napa Valley Marina Dock Service. 1-1/2 years. Not a lot of experience but enough to know how not to build a dock. Ran the pile driver the last few months I was there. Home builder for better than 15 years. Built many retaining walls. Masonry and wood. Also about 5 years of getting my back side paddled for getting muddy crawling all over the old docks on the Napa River. ;-) Absolutely get it in writing! $600.00 per day isn't unreasonable. When I run a 3 man crew framing houses I get $800.00 per day plus materials. Materials seems a bit high but that is expected seeings as everything has to be resistant to the elements. Have a good rest. I'm not far behind you.
hey there,,, what happened? I'm in suspence now..
i asked some other experts some other questions while you were gone, and it has been quite a relief to learn that he is doing it more or less ok. Except for his using screws instead of bolts. And i learned that putting the pilings toward the dirt on the inside instead of outside the planks cause less drag on the bulkhead as a whole. I was a bit doubtful of your horizontal planks recommendation because they can't go that far down like vertical.
Speaking of concrete,,, can we use concrete demolition to dump into the fill or will that leach out silica and other contaminants..
Well what about the flat surface vs the pilings in the front.
Will the videos explain how to do business with a new friend? This is a totally different situation.
The guy is only charging for labor and not making any money for running around. We might trade our boat. He might be making a few hundred here and there on the materials,, not sure, but as long as no corners are cut that could otherwise give us better durability, i am ok with him being paid well...I don't like deals,, my bro does.
No the videos are just for contractors not friends.
so basically, no way to escape the discomfort of challenging a friend in this project....
In regards XXXXX XXXXX drawing; that is for designing with the piling facing outward, then the timber,,,(just one timber?) and the tonge and groove planks inside.
BUT, does this act as a retention wall?
is my concern that the timbers will get waterlogged and weight down onto the planks and it will be a constant weight bearing toward the canal onto the Tongue and groove 2 x 10 planks? Are they weaker than solid planks? And did you notice that the yard slopes up? and is it necessary to throw gravel first inside the ditch near the planks and piling base? What are your thoughts about the flat profile?
one other expert said that because our flow of water isn';t strong, the pilings can go inside if you want a smooth look on the outside. The 2 boats would fit easier without the pilings in the way. Another opinion was that the water moving in and out flows over the flat surface and doesn't disturb the bottom of the pilings as they would if the pilings are on the outside the planks.Can you check out that thread that I started when you were gone?
So a flat profile like this could never work on the property?
Those are iron rods and they are called a "Dead man".....
Those are Iron rods that get screwed or drilled into the pilings and are laid 6 ft apart inside the dirt and reach back into a timber that is buried underground and parallel to the sea wall 8 ft..
They were always part of the design... that is why I was asking if it is ok to have the face of the seawall flat. I see them sometimes flat..
I don't understand?
"What you may see is a façade if they are built right."
can you draw me a diagram of a well made flat face bulk head?
OH.. I get it... The flat faced sea walls are made like my second diagram and the front has more planks flat just for looks? or are they also incorporated in a way to act as more support? I was tucking in 3 seniors so I am so stressed out overseeing this is being done right. Another expert says the diagram with the outside facing planks "should" be fine because there is no fast moving water...I wish there were no should.. ;o
So if we follow the second design and put another row of planks on the front, can that be done and not be so heavy? or what would that require? Another expert is saying that the first diagram is sufficient. So I am trying to figure this out.
No disrespect to my fellow expert but it is apparent that he has never worked in a marine environment or delt with many soils issues. Sand will leach out from between the boards if it is always wet. Sand is a great fill if the soil is relatively dry. Try this. Get a hand full of sand and place it in your hand and submerge it into a bowl of water. Do the same with the other hand filled with pebbles. swish them both around just a little and see which lasts longer. As for the side the pilings are on I have said it before and I will say it again. They MUST be on the water side. The wall will be useless as a retaining wall if they are on the inside. I don't care what kind of nuts or bolts you use the wall will fail prematurely. Oh yea, about using lag bolts...No no, no, no, no!!! The wood will retreat from the threads and out they come!
As for soil retention behind the dock. If you use the dead man it must be placed in soil that is not subsiding. e.g; ("guestimating" from the pictures) about 10' under the deck. Mind you Charles is correct about having a soils engineer determine where to place the deadman. Another option is to use augers to act as the deadman (http://longislandmarinelumberpilingfoundation.com/helical.php). Still yet a soils engineer should be consulted with as to the proper placement. If consulting a soils engineer creates a hardship at this time go ahead and let the guy build it as planned. It will last a good while and in the mean time you can save up to have it done correctly in 5 years or so, but for the life of pete do not put the piers on the inside or use sand as backfill. Both are recipes for disaster.
RELIEF.. I hate conflicts... that is what I needed to here to clear things...And dirt fill is what the contractor said to get, either free from somewhere, (hopefully not contaminated) or to buy it by the truck load....and he said he is NOT putting gravel or rocks at the bottom..He is not happy that I am hounding him about lugs vs bolts and insists he is using what everyone else that builds seawalls around here is using.
Also; what does subsiding about 10 ft under the deck mean? Please clarify
Can we do both? Smooth facing outside and pilings behind them and then a horizontal timber and the next row of planks facing inside? That will be double the fasteners and 50 more planks of wood. How much is a soil engineer? Approx
this is going to be really hard for me to challenge the contractor. I flip flopped...
How long do you think it should take?
I will have to print this and use it for my fuel...meaning feeling entitled to have these concerns and negotiate them//... Awesome diagram btw and thank you so much for putting up with me.... I was doing this practically the whole day... at first I didn't understand your first design with the horizontal planks,, and I was trying to convince him to use horizontal planks.. so he was trying to be patient with me. I hope you can comment on Charles input if it is wrong. it would be a shame for someone to do the wrong thing..
The estimate was 5 days
I like to know if Charles feels the inside design is adequate because perhaps the dead man is being used every 6 ft?
Also, you mentioned river rock and then 1 " rocks for drainage? But there is always a low tide of about 2 ft....I don't think it ever completelyt drains... Do I still need river rocks at the base. I was told no, that it won't and is not necessary in the Contractors opinion.
Not sure what my brain was thinking when I mentioned what Charles feels...lol... I think I don't like that there are 2 opinions...There has to be one right answers or it is simply a matter of doing it "good enough" for the conditions that exist here.
But anyway...THe project has begun and I finally drummed up the courage to share my thoughts about possibly making the dead men ties go further back,,,, and he said he can not dig up the yard back any further because the tractor goes too close to the deck.... and it is not necessary...
Oh well.. I haven't the nerve to debate him or fight it or to insist.
It feels awful to not go the extra step.
But the extra order and invoice was added this morning for the carriage bolts, at least and the pilings are in on the outside facing the water... So that is a relief.
it visually doesn't look like it went that far...
You better ask! Minimum 4'! 6' is best.
When I ran the pile driver we were sinking telephone poles up to 18'.
7 ft 4 in is what I was able to put down into the water of the tape measure and it is a 12 ft timber of 6x6...so that is good right?..just made it,,,4.6
8 ft 2 inches out on the other beam....
Well you have my thoughts on this. Unfortunately I cant make him drive them any deeper. If it were me doing the job I would drive them as deep as possible while still being able to mount the rest of the dock to them.
could it be that the ground moved away temporarily and they will fill it in around the sides of the beams? So the pressure of the jets pushed the some dirt out of the way?
What I learned is that getting well informed doesn't mean the job will get done right. Depends what forces someone is up against. I was able to find out info and not take action timely and adequately once I had that info.
Anyway, He said there's not enough room to add longer dead men because it will be too difficult to maneuver the tractor so close to the deck to set the deadman ties and the timbers back further. I think it can be done, but perhaps it has to be dug out by hand? Manualy? but it would hold up the job or take much longer and he has another job lined up so that is why I think he is doing this as a favor to my brother while he has a slot available. bulk head contractors are swamped and booked for 2 years.SO he is charging for labor only and materials is my cost. Just to get something done fast so we don't lose more ground. Do you think there is adequate room to maneuver the tractor to dig up dirt to bury the timbers further back? or do all that other stuff from the diagram? I could not bring myself to ask him. If it could be done, I would hire someone else if I could,that wasn't so negative.
That drawing was only to illustrate that you need to place the deadman (or other type of restraint) in soil that is not moving. You need a soils engineer to test the ground and recommend the correct placement of the restraint system. Without a soils analysis I can only guess as to where the stable soil is. Same goes for your contractor.
Having done many retaining walls I would venture an experienced "guess" that the soil is stable about 6' down under the center of the deck.
NOTE: I am not an engineer! I can not say this is correct. It is ONLY a guesstamate.
It looks like what he is doing .......