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Phil
Phil, Mechanical Engineer
Category: Home Improvement
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Experience:  Retired contractor, 51 years experience
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What size generator is required to start and power a 2200 watt

Customer Question

What size generator is required to start and power a 2200 watt X9 Jura coffee machine
Submitted: 11 months ago.
Category: Home Improvement
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Welcome to Just Answer!.

How many hours a month do you plan on running the coffee machine? The life cycle of a generator can be cut short if it is run near its peak output regularly... there are also machines made for emergency use only that people buy, but that do not stand up to full time commercial applications.

Meantime I will research the machine.

Phil
Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Approximately 8 hours per month
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.

Thanks,

A light weight portable 6,000 watt generator by Honda rated at 230 to 240 volts output 50 hertz Will smallest that will do the job, be as quiet as any, and last at least a year, and probably more like 3 or 4 years if you take it in for service on its maintenance schedule. 8,000 watts would be generous, heavier, and last longer,

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE 6,500 watt model

this will give you an idea of what you are looking at, getting it in 50hz and with an electric wave form out put that will operate the electronic controls on the Jura machine needs to researched.


Those are very high quality generators, and the quietest on the market... some made in India sell for a third the price, are not as reliable and a bit noisier.

I will post this now, let me know if you want to go with the minimum size 6,000 watt unit or something in the 7,000 to 8,000 watt range...

I will be back after I have looked over some of the options in half an hour or so.

Phil

Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.

Hello again, I am still looking for a medium to light duty 50hz generator in the 7,000 watt range...nothing yet. Honda is not advertising a 50hz unit.

CLICK HERE TO SEE A PREMIUM GRADE COMMERCIAL UNIT IN THAT RANGE, DIESEL POWERED... COST WILL BE CLOSE TO TWICE AS MUCH AS THE HONDA, BUT IT WOULD LAST INDEFINITELY FOR YOUR USE.

 

CLICK HERE for a cheap, 50hz, 7,000 watt generator. it will be noisy however and will last about half as long as the kohler and maybe as long as the Honda will last.... it would be ok if you can place the generator 150 feet away to reduce the noise level.

Hang in there, I will call Honda in the morning. I would like to see any comments you have on the generators I have been looking at so far.



Phil




Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Hi Phil,

Many thanks for your advice. I would only be looking at the 6 KW generator
If that serviced my needs and with that output I would assume that would cater for the starting surge as well.

8 hours per week would be absolute maximum usage so I don't want to spend a lot on this

First class comprehensive advise from you thank you very much.

Regards
Grant Symonds
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.

Thanks Grant!

CLICK HERE
for a very quiet 6500 watt generator at 50Hz, available in Australia.
The prices seem a bit high.

Here is the link again in case that link doesn't work
http://www.generatorplace.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16

 

that is a 'sine wave' generator, the best you can get for the electronics on board your Jura machine.. cheaper models do not have a pure sine wave output, they generally work, but are not as good as sine wave output.

 

This generator will definitely work.

 

However... if I had an operating load profile from Jura, it might be very possible get by quite nicely with a generator in the 3500 to 4,000 watt rating. I will see what I can do about getting that information from Jura...you might ask them as well.

 

All of the pumps, grinders and heaters do not work simultaneously and even if they did, each component would not start simultaneously... so it does not need the stated 2200 watts.... plus the starting surges for all motors at once.

 

None of this is relevant to a mains powered machine, so that Jura saw no need to publish the data we need for sizing a generator most optimally... it is liable to be difficult getting the detail we need from the typical sales representative... we may have to contact the factory. Swiss speak fair english as a rule. I will try their local distributors however first.

 

 

We can go from there,

Phil




Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Hi Phil,

I intend to give you an excellent rating but I don't want to end our session before I learn whether you had had any luck with Jura. I assume that you won't be able to obtain any information from them until tomorrow as I won't

Grant
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.

Hello again, I have to wait until Monday to contact Jura during business hours...so far I consider that you have only about half of the answer you need.

You could buy the 6,000 watt Honda 50hz generator and have a workable system... however after some thought on how the machine would normally work, not starting all pumps and grinders at the same time... you might be able to get by suitably with 4,000 watt generator of the same type.

I want to make sure of that before I call this a complete answer. There is also some vagaries in the Jura electrical specification I want to discuss with them if possible they show two amperages 10/15 and two voltages 220 - 240 but the total watts they advertise only adds up to 2200 watts.. the math does not work for the 15 amp option.

I don't want you to buy a bigger generator than you need.
Its a cost and portability issue.

If you don't hear from me by Monday afternoon, reply to this message at that time.. this will put your question back onto the top of my list

 

..... try not to reply to this message sooner than that... reply monday afternoon if possible.

 

______________.

I will put up the ratings box now though so you can rate my work so far if you wish, and in that case I will hold the question open for as much elaboration as you might need weeks or months later.

Phil

Phil, Mechanical Engineer
Category: Home Improvement
Satisfied Customers: 5488
Experience: Retired contractor, 51 years experience
Phil and 4 other Home Improvement Specialists are ready to help you
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Hello again, I had to call Switzerland, I forgot about the time zone issue, so I have to call them tomorrow morning at 6 am my time to reach them during business hours their time.

I will let you know what I find out tomorrow.
Thanks for the positive rating.

Phil
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Hello again, the contact number in Switzerland I was provided by Jura in the US is
011 41 71466 0200 it is not attended apparently.

These machines seem to be made largely in China under Swiss license, its now more than a sales operation and not offering much in the line of clarification on the issues I need to speak to them about. That is as best I can tell at least.

If you can provide me with your contact in Australia for the machine, I will call them and discuss these operating characteristics I need to discuss... Hopefully those selling Jura in Australia are more than just a sales crew offer some service as well, their service people will be able to answer my questions.

The machines made for sale in the EU and the 50hz machines operate apparently a bit differently than the ones made for sale in the US, that is according to Jura sales offices in the US. ..

Phil


We can go from there.

Phil
Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Thanks Phil, I'm waiting on contact details from the State Manager and will forward this as soon as I hear back from them

Grant
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Good plan, I will be looking forward to it... tell the State Manager that I need to know how many of the motors could start at the same time (specifically)... the person he asks will probably not know, so it will take some digging, lacking that he will just say 2200 watts.. that is not enough.

and tell him I need to know why the unit is rated at 10 to 15 amps at 220 to 240 volts
because 10 amps at 220 volts adds up to 2200 watts.

but what about the 15 amps at 220 or 240 volts that adds up to a little over 3200 watts.

I need that information very specifically also... salesmen will not typically have those answers, but the service people might... these are issues they do not think is very important because 98% of their machines plug into the wall where this is not an issue.

Tell them that you are sizing a *generator and need those questions answered from their product engineering department.

Phil
Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Ok
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Send the state manager the full text of my note. It might be too hard to explain otherwise.

Phil
Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Already Donel
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
.
Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Hi Phil,

The explanation the State Manager has received from Jura for the 2200 watts is that this is the minimum power that the X9 can run on.
I believe that this is very basic and not a satisfactory answer at all. The State Manager asked me to provide him with your contact details so Jura can call you and discuss directly. I'm guessing that JustAnswer protocols won't allow you to do that and if that's the case then I'll see if they will provide me with Jura's contact details. In any event, the person at Jura won't be available until Monday

Sorry about all this mucking around Phil.

Please advise

Grant
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Hello again, you are correct, that was a bit of useless data they gave you.

If I can get Jura's number and an engineer or service person and a time frame to call them, the wider the time frame the better, I will call them. It will be good if you can forward my posts on the details i need so they can be prepared.. and have the right guy on hand... it will take a reasonably sharp and experienced man to answer those questions in a meaningful way.

(I use Skype for those calls, it doesn't cost me much at all).

Phil
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Hi Phil,


 


Don't want to waste your time here but thought I'd show you the exchange of emails so you know what I'm up against.


 


What's the chance of me getting a contact number from you so I can forward this on and Jura can make contact direct with you. They seem reluctant to give me their details even though they haven't said so in so many words


 


Grant


 


From: Grant Symonds [mailto:XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX]
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013 4:43 PM
To: Grant Symonds
Subject: Fwd: Generator


 




Sent from my iPhone



Begin forwarded message:


From: Grant Symonds <XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX>
Date: 12 August 2013 10:11:54 AM AWST
To: Peter Buchanan <XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX>
Cc: Grant Symonds <XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX>
Subject: Generator


Thanks for that Pete,


 


I'm not concerned about the time this is taking as I need to ensure that we get this right and was quite happy to wait until today for Jura to be available.


 


I also appreciate Paul's input however, I think something has been lost in the translation. I was always aware of the rating of the X9 machines at 2200 watts and that extra power was required for starting power surges so that was never the question. The question was, what size generator is required to power an X9 coffee machine, the answer for which I am seeking from Phil who is simply asking some follow up answers from Jura so that he can complete his answer to me.


 


His first question referred to "motors" and not "machines". Presumably there is more than one motor/pump within each X9 coffee machine so he needs to know how many motors could possibly start simultaneously.


 


Hopefully this clarifies the question, and
in the meantime, I will see if I am able to get Phil's contact details from him as I currently only have email communication. I will also have a chat with Colin James today as well.


 


Can you please flick this email onto Jura so that we're all on the same page.


 


Many Thanks Pete


Grant



Sent from my iPhone



On 12/08/2013, at 7:12 AM, Peter Buchanan <XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX> wrote:


Hi Grant,


 


I had already emailed the questions on. the person who could help is not there at the moment and I am not entirely sure when he is back on deck but it ( your text) has been forwarded on.


 


I would expect a response in due course but to ensure that Phil isn't wasting his time trying to catch this guy, it would make sense if I pass on Phil's details and then Phil can be contacted when there is an answer or for more clarification.


 


There are quite a few people who have already tried to help but your patience is appreciated. The response was from Jura is from the general manager.


 


I have forwarded your engineers question also to Paul and as you might know Xpresso Delight uses generators in its vans and have gone through the same process you seem to be doing. I have included his response for you, which might be helpful.


 


 


Hi Peter


 


As Dean has given you the Power rating for the machine which is clearly marked on the back of all machines not sure what more can be done.


 


The question on which generator is how many machines will be used at the same time and how many will be starting at the same time.


 


When a machine starts it uses more amps to heat up, usually around 12 amps. After that it goes down considerably.


 


So the question is not for Jura but for the Franchisee. The formula is as simple as adding up the total number of machines and try to start them at slightly different times. Maybe 5 minutes apart.


 


Example if you have 5 machines you will need a generator with an output of a minimum of 15,000 watts to be safe. 3,200 watts x 5 machines equals 16,000 watts but you will get away with 15,000 as long as they do not all start at exactly the same time.


 


Not a completed equation. Our vans have a generator that out puts 3,200 watts for a coffee machine that requires 2,500 watts with the addition of a fridge, lighting, pump and a few other elements it adds up to around 3,000 watts. Never had a problem


 


 


 


Hope this helps


 


Pete


Hi Pete,


 


I'm a bit gobsmacked with Jura's response which is a bit too simplistic and basically useless data.


 


The preference would be for you to provide a contact name and number so Phil can contact them on Monday. If he can talk to an engineer or service person and be given a timeframe to call them, Phil will then call them in this timeframe. It would be prudent to send Jura the email that Phil sent on Wednesday so that they are prepared when Phil talks to them.


 


I didn't realise this was going to be so difficult. If the above option is no acceptable, can you please ask them to address each of Phil's question in his email and email the answers back to you?


 


I know this is a pain in the arse and I appreciate your efforts.


 


Cheers


Grant



Sent from my iPad



On 10/08/2013, at 10:44 AM, Peter Buchanan <XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX> wrote:


Hi Grant,


 


As i mentioned yesterday, the person to talk to is away.


 


Are you able to provide me Phil's contact details so I can pass on and then they can have a direct conversation when he returns next week.


 


The explanation I have received for the 2200 watts is that this is the minimum power that the X9 can run on. I am not sure if this helps answer the question.


 


Also it might be a good idea for you to talk to Colin James as he has a bit of experience with generators each year.



Kind Regards



Peter Buchanan


Xpresso Delight Perth and Dianella

Mobile: 0401 062 801
Email: XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX


Web: www.xpressodelight.com.au


 



<unknown.png>Like Xpresso Delight<unknown.png>Follow Xpresso Delight <unknown.png>Connect to Xpresso Delight



 



<PastedGraphic-1.tiff>




PLEASE NOTE: This communication and any attachments are confidential and may contain copyright material of Xpresso Delight Pty Ltd or a third party.It is intended only for use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged information.


If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution or replication of this message is strictly prohibited.
The legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not wavered, lost or destroyed by reason of a mistaken delivery to you.
If you have received this message in error, we would appreciate immediate notification by telephone or return email and ask that the message be permanently deleted from your system.


 


On 08/08/2013, at 10:34 AM, Grant Symonds wrote:


 


Hi Pete,
See below email from Engineer which is self explanatory
Cheers
Grant

<photo.PNG>


Sent from my iPhone


 


 



Kind Regards



Peter Buchanan


Xpresso Delight Perth and Dianella

Mobile: 0401 062 801
Email: XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX


Web: www.xpressodelight.com.au


 



<unknown.png>Like Xpresso Delight<unknown.png>Follow Xpresso Delight <unknown.png>Connect to Xpresso Delight



 



<PastedGraphic-1.tiff>







PLEASE NOTE: This communication and any attachments are confidential and may contain copyright material of Xpresso Delight Pty Ltd or a third party.It is intended only for use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged information.


If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution or replication of this message is strictly prohibited.
The legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not wavered, lost or destroyed by reason of a mistaken delivery to you.
If you have received this message in error, we would appreciate immediate notification by telephone or return email and ask that the message be permanently deleted from your system.


 

Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
Hello again,

Pete typed the following;

"Not a completed equation. Our vans have a generator that out puts 3,200 watts for a coffee machine that requires 2,500 watts with the addition of a fridge, lighting, pump and a few other elements it adds up to around 3,000 watts. Never had a problem"

 

That tells us most of what we need to know. It just tells us indirectly.

 

If both pumps and both grinders started at once then a 3200 watt generator would not handle the starting amp load. So from this we can be 99% sure that they do not start all at once... because if they did a 3200 watt generator would not be able to handle it.

 

It is also likely that the 2200 watts published watts rating was obtained by adding up all of the running amps of all motors, and all electric heaters running (but not starting) at once. So that in practice the machine does not actually draw 2200 watts.

 

 

Pete also said this


"When a machine starts it uses more amps to heat up, usually around 12 amps. After that it goes down considerably."

 

12 amps X 220 volts = 2640 watts. So that their 3200 watt generator would handle that nicely, then the amp draw 'goes down considerably'.

 

so lets assume the amp draw drops just 20%, to be safe, that means 10 amps running, or 2200 watts running amps, and by these two remarks in bold, (in this posting of mine) I think we can safely assume that a 3200 watt generator will handle the load running at 66% of full load, Which is not bad generator sizing for full time operation 8 hours a day. 50 or 60% load would be better,

 

So that a 4000 KW generator of the style I mentioned earlier should be a very good and conservative selection.


CLICK HERE, this is the 6500 watt generator selection, they make one in this line that puts out the 'sine wave' type output rated at 4,000 watts, buy that one. I am 100% sure that will work very well for you at this point... the generator will run at 40 to 50% of its full load.. almost all of the time which will assure the longest possible generator life, and also cover us in case for instance two motors happen to start at once.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Many thanks Phil, sorry this took so long, I really am disappointed with the way Jura has dealt/not dealt with this.

Grant
Expert:  Phil replied 11 months ago.
You are welcome Grant, the sales organizations for products made in China are not up to speed on the details or trained in those aspects... welcome to the new world of imports and laying off the high priced sales talent. Pete did Ok though.

Phil.

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