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Cat Man
Cat Man, Caterpillar Engine Expert
Category: Heavy Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 8629
Experience:  23 Years Caterpillar Engine experience.
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2000 4900, Dt466E. Tried starting engine, after a couple seconds

Customer Question

2000 4900, Dt466E. Tried starting engine, after a couple seconds pro-link shows icp at 150psi and falling. Should that be?
Submitted: 6 years ago.
Category: Heavy Equipment
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Hi. Welcome back to JA! I will try and help you out.

The injection control pressure sensor provides pressure information in the form of an analog voltage signal to the ECM. Injection control pressure ranges from 500 to 3000 psi (3.4 to 20 MPa).

You should have over 700 psi during cranking for the engine to start. 9 times out of 10. The problem is a bad IPR. Injection Pressure Regulating valve.

graphic

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
This is the same truck that shows the faulty ecm codes, so which is it a bad ecm or ipr?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Thanks for the information.

Do you have any diagnostic codes like 333? 333 means there is a fault with the injection actuation pressure system. This is the most common problem for these engine when they will not start. If not, I would stick with the ECM.

Are you using the Service Maxx software or something else?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Pro-link with HDS card
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Thanks for the information.

I have only used the Service Maxx software. I have not used a Prolink in over 12 years. But I do remember the Prolink reading ghost codes.

I will admit that seeing a 254 code is very rare. Injection Actuation Pressure problems are the most common on DT466E engines.

If your engine only has 150 psi ICP. You may want to trouble shoot that.

 

Also, earlier I said the engine must have a minimum of 700 psi. I was thinking of the wrong engine.

Your engine must have at least 870 to start.

Here is a list of items that can cause low pressure:

 

Low injection control pressure can be caused by:


No oil in engine
Oil reservoir leak down possibly through the check valve for the high pressure pump.
Defective high pressure pump
Injector O-ring leak
Injector body leak
IPR valve stuck open
Pump drive gear loose or damaged
Broken injector hold down bolt

Customer: replied 6 years ago.

The rings on all injectors were changed a few weeks ago.

 

How can i determine if the is a fault with the ipr, can it be visually inspected for faults?

 

How can i determine if the check valve for the HP pump is leaking?

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Thanks for the information.

I have seen on some IPR's damaged O rings once I removed it. But most of the time the O rings are OK. Then I just replace the IPR.

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
What about the check valve for the HP pump?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Oh. Sorry.

The check valve in the pump is not serviceable. The pump will have to be replaced.

 

Also, you may want to remove the valve cover and watch for oil leaks while the engine is cranking. There could also be a leak at the injectors.

 

PLEASE BE CAREFUL. If there is a leak under the valve cover, the oil is at a VERY High pressure.

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
I removed the ipr, pretty oily, the two pin connector also had a lot of oil as the seal is missing
Customer: replied 6 years ago.

Can you judge the pressure coming from the pump by removing the line that connects to the HP oil rail and cranking?

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
No. That is very dangerous. You will need to install a 5000 psi gauge into the system and measure the pressure.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.

Guages i have access to. This is installed where?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.

I am trying to get a better read of the icp but everytime i crank the pro-link reboots and then it takes a while to get to the data you want to read by that time the icp has dropped too much for an accurate reading. This however, does not happen with my dt466 i get readings during cranking.

 

Electrical problem with the 466E?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Could low battery power to the ecm cause these electrical problems?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
Yes. Low voltage could cause this problem. It would also explain the 254 codes.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.

I have been running this 4900 with the dt466E for a while now with two 12v Batteries of at least 500 cca, i was always concerned and asked if there shouldn't be another battery particularly because the 4300 with the dt466 that we have uses three with at least 500cca.

Valid concern?

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
I think so. Most trucks have 3.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Could the low voltage have damaged the ecm?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
No. I do not believe so.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Scott, i have just installed three high charged batteries, cranks good, still won't turn over but now the ecm codes are gone.
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Awesome. Thanks is good news.

Can you communicate with the ECM now while cranking? If so, can you see RPM's and Injection Pressure?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.

 

Icp is still low, and now i'm getting smoke from the exhaust, which i hope is also a good sign, smells like fuel.

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Sorry for the delay.

If the ICP is still low, I would be looking at trying the following things.

First, I would remove the valve cover and make sure that none of the injectors are leaking. (You may have already done this).

Second, I would try installing a High Pressure gauge at the ICP sensor and manually measure the pressure. It is possible that the sensor is not reading correctly.

Third, if the sensor is reading correctly, I would replace the IPR valve.

Lastly, I would try and replace the High pressure pump.

 

Please let me know if you have any more questions.

Cat Man and other Heavy Equipment Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
I'll get to work, thank you for your time and help.
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
No problem. Good luck. Please let me know if you have any more questions.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
I removed the llift pump and tried pumping it manually, fuel passes through the line but there is also fuel coming up from the primer. Is this ok?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

Yes it is.

 

Didn't you check the fuel pressure on this engine?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Pressure is good when you prime it, i was just in the process of taking down the hpop and was checking everything.
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
Sounds good. Let me know how it goes.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.

Scott, i started the engine by tow and usually the warn engine light would already be on but it wasn't. After idling without the light for a few minutes i reved the engine and got a code with the description:

 

Injector cylinder one high side to low side open

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

That codes is indicating there is an open circuit in the system. Here is what the troubleshooting said:

 

Flash Code 421 THROUGH 426


ATA CODE SID 1 THROUGH 6 FMI 5


LOW SIDE TO HIGH SIDE OPEN


Flash Codes for Low Side to High Side Open indicate an open circuit between the IDM high side driver and the low side (Signal return) to the IDM.

The ECM will compensate for engine misfire to keep the engine operating. The ECM will not illuminate the Engine Warning light when this situation occurs.

Possible causes: Open wire in injector harness, open injector return circuit or injector solenoid.

Customer: replied 6 years ago.

Would this contribute to the no start?

 

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

I would not think so. If the electronic side of the injector was not working correctly, the engine should be running on the other 5 cylinders.

 

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Thanks
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
No problem.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
If this trucks starts when hot, could we rule out weak oil pressure?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
Yes. When hot, the oil is much thinner. Usually, when there is an ICP problem, the engine starts good cold but is difficult to start when hot.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
I really think i have and electrical problem because it cranks good with high charged batteries, sound like its almost there but it just won't turn over, you can literally see smoke coming out the exhaust. Whats the explanation for the smoke?
Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.

If smoke is coming out of the exhaust then the injectors are injecting fuel into the cylinders. They just might not be injecting the correct amount or at high enough pressure to cause combustion.

You mentioned earlier that the ICP pressure was still low. It is possible the the pressure is not high enough (870) to injector the fuel correctly.

Is the pressure still low during cranking?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.

The pro-link still flashes and reboots during cranking, the sofware may be different on my later model 466 because you can see the data live on that one.

 

I've been told these engines don't use glow plugs, is this accurate? this s a 2000 model 466E

Expert:  Cat Man replied 6 years ago.
Correct. No glow plugs.