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Andy PhD DABT
Andy PhD DABT, Toxicologist
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About producing ozone with corona method. Would the by-product

Resolved Question:

About producing ozone with corona method.
Would the by-product (oxides of nitrogen) cause danger or cancer in the following ozone usage—
(1) Ozone for ozonating air.
(2) Ozone for ozonating water which is for cleansing vegetables of pesticides/chemicals.
(3) Ozone for ozonating water which is for drinking (as for promoting bodily health).
(4) Ozone for ozonating oil for ointment on skin.
(5) Ozone for ozonating oil for being orally taken (as for improving bodily health).
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Health
Expert:  Chris C. replied 2 years ago.

medtech254 :


The silent corona discharge method consists of a unit with these parts--dust filters, gas dryers, a source of oxygen, a generator, a contact unit and torch destructor. Dryers and filters clean the oxygen. The ozone is generated from the cleaned oxygen by electrical discharge just like lightning. By splitting the oxygen and creating single molecules, the single molecules can attach to oxygen (O2) and create O3. The O3 is then discharged into the room.








  • Ozone generators are controversial. While useful in industrial (purifying water, bleaching wood pulp, detoxifying cyanide waste) and medical applications (killing bacteria, viruses, odors) where strict standards are followed for manufacturing and using the generators, the use of ozone in smaller home or personal devices could be harmful. Those used in industrial and medical settings are used in unoccupied situations.


    Ozone can cause respiratory irritation so when a device is used in a confined space the device should follow Food and Drug Administration guidelines. Public health standards have been set that indicate the maximum amount of ozone that is safe for humans to interact with.


    For an ozone generator to produce enough ozone to kill bacteria and viruses, it must exceed the public health standards.







medtech254 :

If done properly, ozonated water can actually 'hold' ozone for a short period of time. With the proper use of a high purity, high output (medical) ozone generator, and if the ozone is bubbled through the water long enough, this ozonated water can contain significant levels of ozone bonded to the water. This ozonated water, is beyond pure. Full of ozone and oxygen, this ozonated water is used topically as a healing and antibacterial / antifungal agent, on burns, scrapes, bruises, in dentristry, surgery, and many other applications. If you drink this water, you are actually drinking 'ozone'.

medtech254 :

This link will give you lots of detail on ozone reactions with human skin:

medtech254 :

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ozone-reacts-with-human-skin-to-produce-irritants

Customer:

Thanks for your answer. However, you did not mention the “by-product” (oxides of nitrogen) in using corona method and did not answer the related questions. Could you go back and do it again? Also, if you need to charge me for AU$30, please do not go further. Sorry and thanks. ]]]]


 

Chris C., Nurse
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Expert:  replied 2 years ago.
Hello,

Oxides of nitrogen are not good for you, they primarily are a problem if breathed in so only for ozonation of air would they be a significant concern. However the ozone it self is more of a danger, so yes nitrogen oxides are bad, but ozone is even worse. Since ozone is the main product produced and nitrogen oxides are just a by-product and ozone is more toxic than nitrogen oxides, I would not worry about nitrogen oxides, but would be cautious about the ozone.

I hope I have answered you question, if you need me to clarify anything just ask.

Take care,
Andy
Andy PhD DABT, Toxicologist
Category: Health
Satisfied Customers: 92
Experience: Board certified with 17 years in research or consulting
Andy PhD DABT and 3 other Health Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Thanks for your answer. Here are my questions:
(1) If ozone is that harmful, why do FDA approve its being used in homes and why are there ozonators for home use?
(2) Where are the by-products (nitrogen oxides) after the ozonating process? Do they simply flow away or adhere on/in the ozonated air/water/oil after the ozonating process? Do they adhere on the vegetables/fruits which have been submerged in the ozonated water for minutes?
Expert:  Chris C. replied 2 years ago.
I think this should shed some light on your questions regarding ozone use:

http://educate-yourself.org/ozone/
http://www.o3center.org/Articles/TheStoryofOzone.html
http://www.oxygenmedicine.com/o3laymanview.html

These are the method available for ozone production and indicate the percent of by-products formed:

http://healingtools.tripod.com/ofs5m.html

While my education could not possibly stand up against the other expert I will respectfully XXXXX XXXXX urge you do read the links I have provided. Ozone has a LONG history of use for healing and utilizing ultraviolet light treatment of oxygen.

UV ozone generators, or vacuum-ultraviolet (VUV) ozone generators, employ a light source that generates a narrow-band ultraviolet light, a subset of that produced by the Sun.

VUV ozone generators, unlike corona discharge generators, do not produce harmful nitrogen by-products and also unlike corona discharge systems, VUV ozone generators work extremely well in humid air environments. There is also not normally a need for expensive off-gas mechanisms, and no need for air driers or oxygen concentrators which require extra costs and maintenance.

I hope this sheds some light and clears up any questions you may have. If you need additional information there is no additional charge.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
What is off-gas mechanisms?
Expert:  Chris C. replied 2 years ago.
http://www.delozone.com/files/ozone-overview-drinkingh2o-1999.pdf

That will help with the effectiveness and margin of safety established by the EPA.

Ozone transfer from the bubble to water is happening only on the surface of the bubble where ozone is in a direct contact with water. Ozone trapped inside the bubble does not do anything....it just creates problem with strong ozone off-gas. Small bubbles are preferable because of more favorable "surface : volume" ratio => more ozone in the bubble will be in a direct contact with water.

For home use off-gassing is not an issue and only comes into play in larger production situations which results in more ozone produced than the liquid can absorb (water, oil, etc)

This off-gassing however is easily eliminated and standard equipment on any commercial application these days.

http://ozonelaundry.wordpress.com/tag/off-gas/
Chris C., Nurse
Category: Health
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Expert:  Andy PhD DABT replied 2 years ago.
Hello,

I do not think the other expert answered the questions you asked. So here is my reply to your questions:

For question 1. you asked why the FDA approved ozone generators for home use if ozone is so dangerous. Well that answer is simple, the FDA has not approved it and in fact has taken action against some manufactures of ozone generators. Ozone is not approved for any type of therapy and such use is illegal. Ozone cannot be used to treat any disease, it is considered a pollutant or water disinfectant. It can be used to treat water at municipal water treatment plants, but it has the disadvantage of being so short lived that it’s effect in disinfecting water only lasts for a short time and so water in the pipes under the streets heading toward your home has no ozone in it. So if there is a leak in the water supply pipe and dirt gets into the water, people can get sick. Chlorination on the other hand uses forms of chlorine that last much longer and will keep the water germ free even while it travels toward your home in pipes. This is why chlorination is so popular in America. We spend so little money on maintaining our infrastructure, like water supply pipes, that they sometimes leak, but we are still safe because the chlorine in the water will still kill off many bacteria. So please read these quotes from the FDA and Code of Federal Regulations and click on the links to see them in their own source.

This is a quote from the FDA about this "Unapproved devices for autism. In 2004, FDA investigators recovered ozone generator machines from the Edelson Center for Environmental and Preventive Medicine in Atlanta. Stephen B. Edelson promoted an ozone generator device and other alternative therapies as cures for autism. Some marketers of ozone generators claim that inhaling ozone can "detoxify" the body or stimulate the immune system. According to the FDA, ozone is an unapproved drug. This toxic gas can cause lung damage and other health problems. Edelson's medical license was revoked by the Georgia Medical Board. This case was jointly investigated by the FDA's Atlanta District Office, the FDA's Office of Criminal Investigations, the Georgia Medical Board, and the Georgia Drugs and Narcotics Agency."(http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/EmergencyPreparedness/BioterrorismandDrugPreparedness/ucm137261.htm).

The Code of Federal Regulations (U.S. law) also spells out the FDA’s stand on ozone generators "(c) A number of devices currently on the market generate ozone by design or as a byproduct. Since exposure to ozone above a certain concentration can be injurious to health, any such device will be considered adulterated and/or misbranded within the meaning of sections 501 and 502 of the act if it is used or intended for use under the following conditions:
(1) In such a manner that it generates ozone at a level in excess of 0.05 part per million by volume of air circulating through the device or causes an accumulation of ozone in excess of 0.05 part per million by volume of air (when measured under standard conditions at 25 deg. C (77 deg. F) and 760 millimeters of mercury) in the atmosphere of enclosed space intended to be occupied by people for extended periods of time, e.g., houses, apartments, hospitals, and offices. This applies to any such device, whether portable or permanent or part of any system, which generates ozone by design or as an inadvertent or incidental product.
(2) To generate ozone and release it into the atmosphere in hospitals or other establishments occupied by the ill or infirm.
(3) To generate ozone and release it into the atmosphere and does not indicate in its labeling the maximum acceptable concentration of ozone which may be generated (not to exceed 0.05 part per million by volume of air circulating through the device) as established herein and the smallest area in which such device can be used so as not to produce an ozone accumulation in excess of 0.05 part per million.
(4) In any medical condition for which there is no proof of safety and effectiveness.
(5) To generate ozone at a level less than 0.05 part per million by volume of air circulating through the device and it is labeled for use as a germicide or deodorizer."(http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=801.415&utm_campaign=Google2&utm_source=fdaSearch&utm_medium=website&utm_term=ozone&utm_content=7 ). When the FDA calls something adulterated, it means that is it illegal.

The FDA also has reported seizing ozone generators (http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm199322.htm).


For question 2. you asked what happens to the nitrogen oxides after ozonation. Well when ozonating air, the nitrogen oxides are released into the air as would the ozone. It can then be breathed in and cause damage to the lungs. Ozone is very reactive and will degrade quickly so there would probably be higher levels hear the ozone generator than on the other side of the room, however nitrogen oxides are more stable and would probably be more uniformly distributed around the room, though it all depends on how your room is set up with HVAC, fans, windows, etc….. Nitrogen oxides will dissolve in water and form acids (including the water in the mucus lining the respiratory track – at high doses causing an acid burn to the lungs), they are a major component of pollution caused by car exhaust and the acids can contribute to corrosion seen in congested cities. So when water is ozonated, the nitrogen oxides just turn into acids. I am not sure how they react with oils, they do have some oxidizing potential so they might react with oils, but I can’t say for sure.

I hope this has answered the questions that you have asked. Ask if you need any clarification and I would be happy to better explain things.

Also, I am curious as to why you have asked this question. Would you be willing to tell me more about what is going on? I might be able to give you a more relevant answer to your specific situation.

Take care,
Andy
Expert:  Chris C. replied 2 years ago.
Technically this expert is correct given exactly what your question asked.

However, in consideration of the merits of ozone therapy, the medical community has recognized the antiviral and antibacterial properties of this gas for some time. In fact, it has long been used to sterilize surgical instruments.

During World War II, a topical formulation containing suspended ozone was often administered to the wounds of soldiers to deter infection. In more recent years, veterinarians use intravenous fluid ozone preparations to treat infection and decrease inflammation in animals.

In Germany, ozone generators are standard pieces of equipment in ambulances, which many claim has resulted in a lower occurrence of severe or permanent paralysis in stroke patients.

Skeptics of ozone therapy argue that the evidence supporting its therapeutic benefits is largely anecdotal, and point to the fact that ozone is a toxic gas classified as an environmental pollutant which presents health risks to those with cardiopulmonary and respiratory disorders. The strongest point of view against this therapy is a concern that ozone readily degrades into unstable oxygen atoms that will seek to gain electrons by pairing, or oxidizing, with other molecules.

 

Proponents of this form of therapy, however, maintain that ozone atoms retain their ion characteristics rather than behaving like free radicals. This means they will target and oxidize with molecules that lack glutathione peroxidase and other protective enzymes and destroy them, namely those found in foreign bacterial and viral cells.

 

Treatment with ozone involves very specific dosage concentrations and various methods of administration. These include autohemotherapy, or the reintroduction of ozone-infused blood, rectal, vaginal, or auricular insufflations, intramuscular injections, and ozonated water or steam. Topical applications consist of ozonated ointments or salves made from olive, hemp, or avocado oil.

 

In the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) strictly prohibits claims that ozone therapy can prevent or cure any disease. However, the FDA permits the use of ozone as a germicide in the food processing industry and numerous states have adopted legislation making the medical use of ozone legal.

 

Ozone therapy is widely practiced in most European and Mediterranean countries.


Stating the ozone in a municipal potable water system is just plain false. While it is true that during a water break where the psi drops below the state required minimum there is a risk of contamination. This is why BOIL WATER ORDERS are put in action regardless of the treatment method used for disinfection. I suppose in a discussion of the dangers the lurk in water we could get into the whole problem with chlorine treatment and the production of large amounts of THMs especially in surface supplies...

On question #2 yet more misleading manipulation of the facts. It is "technically" correct again. However, depending on the method used to produce the ozone there is a great variation in the by-products generated. In the VUV system nitrogen oxides are a non-issue.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
It is an eye-opener for me when I read the debate of both experts. Now I have words for both experts.
(A) To answer Andy what is going on--
I use ozone mainly for the following:
(a) to cleanse the pesticides/chemicals residues on vegetables,
(b) to cleanse the room air. There are chemicals coming out from the room contents (e.g. carpet, wardrobe etc). These chemicals are there due to the manufacturing of the carpet/wardrobe etc in the factories. Besides I use ozone to cleanse molds for there may be molds on the room contents . If the ozone level is higher than healthy level, the room is unoccupied during cleansing.

(B) Here are some questions to ask medtech254—
(1) (Andy has already given his answer on this.) Where are the by-products (nitrogen oxides) after the ozonating process? Do they simply flow away or adhere on/in the ozonated air/water after the ozonating process? Do they adhere on the vegetables/fruits which have been submerged in the ozonated water for minutes?
(2) When I cleanse the veggies, I let them be submerged in the water (which is under ozonation through a diffuser). Could you guess what % of the ozone that would not be dissolved in the water and would escape into the room air?
Expert:  replied 2 years ago.
Hello,

As I stated before the use of ozone to “clean” room air or for any medical treatment is illegal in the United States and as an expert at Just Answer I can’t, nor will my ethics allow me to, endorse illegal activities. So I think you should stop using ozone to “clean” room air. You say that if the ozone levels are higher than healthy levels the room is unoccupied, if that is so, how do you determine the levels of ozone? You can’t find ozone detectors at most retail stores. Also, any kind of treatment to room air to “clean” it can easily be done by opening windows and ventilating the room with clean outside air. There is no need to treat air when for way less effort and money you just open a window and turn on a fan. Ozonation does not “clean” anything, it is an oxidizer and it may cause oxidation of some chemicals that cause odor to chemicals that don’t cause odor, but those chemicals are still there. Your best plan of action is to ventilate your room, not throw more chemicals into it, especially one as toxic as ozone. Now if you have mold in your house ventilating it will also help unless you live in a very hot and humid location. If you do, then getting a dehumidifier or running the air conditioning to remove moisture from the air will help prevent mold from growing. If your mold problem is very bad, then you should contact a mold remediation specialist who would remove the mold infested parts of your house.

Now as for using ozonated water to clean vegetables, again the ozone is not making them more “clean” than if you just used regular water, as all it does it oxidize chemicals. So if there were pesticides on the vegetables, ozone might oxidize those chemicals, but oxidation can make those pesticides less toxic, or it can actually make them more toxic, it all depends on the pesticide and the conditions during the oxidation. However, many pesticides are absorbed into the inside of vegetables and can’t be washed off no matter how thorough a job you do in washing them. Luckily in the United States, pesticides must go through lots of testing before they can be used and during this testing it is determined what amounts are safe to eat and we have laws that prevent food from containing levels of pesticides higher than the levels determined to be safe. However, if you are concerned about consuming pesticides, your best bet is not to try to wash them off, but to buy organic food that is not treated with pesticides in the first place. Organic food may cost a little more, but if you are concerned about pesticides it is your best option.

So using ozone to “clean” room air, only adds more chemicals to it, which are in fact more toxic than the chemicals you are trying to get rid of and in the United States at least, it is illegal. You will get better and safer results by simply ventilating your room an removing any mold infested materials and keeping the humidity low. As for cleaning vegetables, it would be best all around to just buy organic vegetables, then you don’t have to worry about pesticides at all.

As a final note, using ozone as a medical treatment of any kind is clearly illegal in the United States. I can’t speak for Australia, since I am not familiar with their regulations, but it’s medical use in America should not be promoted.

I hope this has given you satisfying answers to your questions.

Take care,
Andy
Andy PhD DABT, Toxicologist
Category: Health
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