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xarqi, Generalist
Category: Health
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Possibility of organ cloning

Customer Question

Alright, I have a fairly complex question that would involve
research and
tracking down hard-to-find, potentially even almost hidden
but I'm willing to pay top dollar for an actual answer of the
caliber I'm
looking for (in other words, probably if someone were to actually
FIND what I'm looking for, which may or may not exist, but I
have a suspicion it probably does, even if most people don't/
aren't suppose to know about it yet), is related to health.
While I know that human cloning
is a very controversial and hotly debated topic, I was trying to
discover if
there are any laboratories, research facilities or clinics that were
capable of producing cloned organs for transplantation, whether
creating an embryo and then actually destroying it at an early
stage and
simply harvesting the desired organ and growing it to adult-
size, or by
any other means. I personally am not in favor of killing human
and am actually pro-life, with regard to MOST circumstances,
but there
exceptions. There is a second part to my question as well, but I
want to
wait and see what kind of leads, if any, can be found on this
before I go
ahead with asking the secondary part.
Submitted: 11 years ago.
Category: Health
Expert:  xarqi replied 11 years ago.
What would you consider to be sufficient proof of the negative,
that no such facility exists?
Expert:  DrHerb replied 11 years ago.
in most countries, destroying a 24-week embryo or older, after the organs have been created, is considered (and it really is!) a murder. This is a really terrible thought.
Scientists should think about other methods. An organ could be created after a TOTAL study of all the circumstances and environmental that affect it during its creation in vivo and a huge laboratory simulator. Issue cultures and cell cultures knowledge would help at this direction.
Such an organ would have shape, weight and functioning similarities with an "original" organ, but we don't know if it would survive.
Another way to create organs is isolating animal embryos in a very early stage of embryogenesis and try to change their DNA, before some genes express their organogenesis messages. In this, clone making would be very useful.
All these should have a government permission to be done and the scientists should prove their willing and the ability to offer more in humanity than they sacrifice. It is true that a lot of ethic dilemmas come to remind us that we have to try to make our world better rather than making and making expirements without specific goals.
Be sure that it can be done and noone can proof the opposite. I believe that time will prove it and some years from now, organs would be products with barcodes. Its the same as if you proposed 150 years before that you could make a heart transplantation!

I hope I helped you!

I don't really care, but it is better for you and for everybody to make a deposit of 5-10 $ and keep your promise than promising big amounts to give nothing.

I wish you the best.

Dr Herb
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to xarqi's Post: That's a good question, actually. I'm uncertain- I know of two
facilities, and http:// that purport to have such
processes in stages of development or testing, but I believe they
actually could do it now, perhaps not with guaranteed safety or
precision (or even legality), but could nonetheless. I guess I'd
like to find out if under any circumstances (or for any amount of
money) they might be WILLING to...
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to DrHerb's Post: I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I don't mean to offend,
but you didn't really answer my question at all. Did you even
read the body of my message, or just the subject line? I asked
about for the specific information of any facilities that might be
able to do it, not musings on whether or not it should be done
and predictions about when it might be done. Please, could you
or someone try to find those things?
Expert:  xarqi replied 11 years ago.
As far as I can see, the two companies that you provided links to
are just involved in embryonic stem cell propagation. There is a
HUGE gap between growing up specific cell types and implanting
them, and growing an intact organ. For example, it is feasible to
produce beta-islet cells in culture, but to produce an entire
pancreas complete with nerves and vessels is vastly more
complicated, and I suspect, currently impossible.
Cardiomyocytes - sure - by the bucket load, but a heart? No.
Neurons? Tricky. A brain - unlikely.

That brings us back to cloning and harvesting organs. This is
probably feasible soon since the "Dolly" approach should work
reasonably well in humans. There have been no confirmed
reports of human cloning however, and there is no reason to
suspect that a success would not be reported in the medical
literature. It is the history of the world that man's abilities
advance faster than his ethics.

This is why I need to know what you will accept as proof that
this is not currently possible. If your concern is only with the
therapeutic availability of stem cell derived cells for implantation
for therapeutic purposes, rather than entire cloned organs, that
is a very different situation.

Please clarify.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to xarqi's Post: I'm interested in both, but what I'm concerned with is the actual
complete, cloned organs. I suppose if nobody is able to find any
evidence that it is possible, I will accept that as evidence that it
is not, but that, being disappointing, is obviously not what I'm
looking for.
Expert:  xarqi replied 11 years ago.
OK - I can look for supportive data, but I do expect to fail. The
only claim I have seen of successful human cloning so far was
from a group that say aliens taught them the techniques. I'm
assuming that you discount this possibility.

Would you still be prepared to pay for a negative finding? If not,
I can't really commit the time to what I expect to be a fruitless
Expert:  Vickie replied 11 years ago.

Dear manowater,

This is not meant to be an answer to where you might find a cloning laboratory, or a "musing" on whether or not it should or should not be done - as my personal opinion does not enter in what-so-ever. This is only something to possibly think of during your search. I don't really think the issue is "whether or not" the organs "Can" be cloned, because you know that it is a very high probability that they can, and maybe even are. The thing is, it is the "Moral" issue that probably will never "let it be". Or let you find one. If the laboratory does not have the legal access or funding to work on this process, and perfect it, then it winds up being a mute point either way. Do you see what I mean. If a Laboratory would be "Willing" to do this... the fines, penalties, loss of licensure, and imprisonment would make it hardly worth the crime for them. It would be hard to spend all the money from prison, that it would take, to get them to do it,...and the time that would be needed for them to succeed and produce a quality organ that is going to last for more than a year or two, would more than likely be years away anyway. You see every day in the paper, the bombings of abortion clinics and killings of doctors and nurses that happen to work in the clinics at the time...This would set the lab up for the same notoriety causing a mass hysteria including people that are "for" the process and people "against" the is all an ethical matter that will more than likely never be resolved, hindering any process or progress being made in that direction. I am sure that there are laboratory's that would take this on in a heartbeat, legal or no, "for the right amount", even If you did find one though, that would be interested in doing this illegibly, for any amount of money, I would tend to question the quality of the organ and or where the organ really came from to begin with...but it is whether or not they are willing to take on the consequences of their actions should it get out what they have done, and eventually it would. Because it is an illegal process, this is going to make it hard for you to find a good quality organ and because there are people out there that will do most anything for the right price disregarding the possibility of jail or any other consequence of their action, you can't be absolute on what you would be buying in any way shape or form...and the question is...would you really know the difference?

Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Vickie's Post: Well, that is, hmm, I obviously have taken
into account such
considerations, but still, that isn't necessarily true. First of all,
I'm not even certain that this is illegal at this point. Certainly
we've all read reports about attempts to make it so and debate
back and forth both ways, but, to the best of my knowledge,
there has been no law passed so far to outlaw therapeutic or
even "reproductive" cloning in this country. A referendum came
up in the UN to ban it a year or two back, but they couldn't agree
on it and it was ultimately not passed, to be put off for future
consideration: even so, the UN is not a lawmaking body and it's
decisions are merely recommendations. To the best of my
knowledge, what I am looking for may be frowned upon,
(although I don't believe it should be, not if it could save a life or
improve someone's quality of life) but it is not yet illegal in this
or any other country that I know of. Even if it were to become
illegal, I doubt that would put a stop to it any more than the
illegality of marijuana stops anyone from smoking that. I just
want to find one that might be *able* to do it, and then go
forward from there.
Expert:  Vickie replied 11 years ago.

Dear manowater,

I apologize, I guess I was wrong. You have obviously studied this extensively, and I am one that believes that there is "always" something for everyone to learn. I truly hope my dear, that you find what you are searching for, as your comments throughout, appear to have a personal tone to them...without being said. I only wish I could help you. I know that you have to be right about what you are speaking of - and have no doubt, that with your determination in this matter you will eventually find success. I hope that you take no offense to my reply, as none was intended. I was just afraid that your search would be fruitless, in which you even gave "me" who was very skeptical... hope that what you are searching for may indeed be out there. Nothing in life is easy, and I admire a person that knows what they want and are willing to go to no length to succeed. I truly believe my dear that you will.

I wish you all the best, XXXXX XXXXX to you...

Customer: replied 11 years ago.
You have nothing to apologize for, I took no offense at your
statements and did not feel that any was intended, if anything, I
appreciate your candor. Even if you were being sarcastic, I'm not
here to argue with or challenge anyone's assumptions, I simply
want to get to the bottom of this: to find the truth, which
perhaps someone with better experience than I may be able to
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to xarqi's Post: I'm not sure if I would be willing to pay for a negative
response....perhaps if you were to really search as wide and as
extensively as possible and still could find nothing, then that
would actually be fairly solid evidence that there really isn't yet,
then yes, I might.
Expert:  xarqi replied 11 years ago.
Thanks for getting back to me.

Here is how I see it:
As for possible technologies:
I can imagine only one process that could in theory work given
today's methodologies, and that is human somatic cell nuclear
transfer, including full-term in vivo development, followed
by organ harvesting.

As for direct in vitro organ cloning:
I believe this is currently impossible.

In either case, either the process exists or it doesn't.
If it exists, then either the group behind it wants to make it
public or wants to keep it secret.

The only way I could find a positive answer would be if it exists,
and they want it public, and if that were the case, I'd have your
answer by now.

From the fact that I have not yet found it, I infer either that it
does not exist, or that no amount of investigation (and certainly
not my half share of $70's worth) would uncover conclusive
proof that it did.

Rather than spending half a day searching for something that I
am confident on theoretical grounds cannot be achieved, or on
ethical grounds is unlikely to be discoverable, in the hope that
you "might" pay for my efforts, but you are "not sure", I'll have to
pass, sorry.

I wish you well. Perhaps I can be of more assistance in future.

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