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Wolfgang, Master Auto Tech
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Tech Working On:2009 Ford Escape 2.5l Timing Issues After

Customer Question

Tech Working On:2009 Ford Escape 2.5l Timing Issues After Cylinder Head Replacement,
P052a, Rough Idle, VCT Error PID Shows 35 degrees At Idle
Submitted: 10 months ago.
Category: Ford
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

Hi, I'm Chad ,Welcome To JustAnswer, I'm reviewing your question and I will be be posting a replay ASAP

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

THERE IS 4 POSSIBLE CAUSES

you have inspected 2 , that leaves 2.

1-I would inspect the timing again ,

2-check the vct solenoid for being stuck open ,check resistance on it are you getting 5- to 14 ohms with connector disconnected ?

3-is your camshaft binding anywhere , you have to tear it down & inspect if the above passed

Please let me know

Thank You

Chad Farhat

ASE Certified Technician

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Timing checks good, as Far as I can tell, but This is only the third time I have done this on a engine with no keys or timming marks and the crank timing pin on this engine calls for a 511542 which is to long only the 567622 Fits correctly I was able to visually verify this with the timing cover off. I replaced the spocket and reset timing with all new bolts and diamond washers the second time, thinking I may have damaged the VCT in Transfer Or that Posibly The VCT Sprockets Orientation To the Cam Is Wrong, I cannot find anything in mitchel Except it says when replacing to mark orientation and transfer to new part
This problem started immediately after head replacement and the customer drove for two weeks before returning for service.
Also Resistance is 8.5 And Cam binding is ruled out due to amount of run time I Feel like it would have failed by now.
Sorry to bombard with info and questions This Car Has Been Pulling My hair out for over a week now
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

that is okay man, i have shop and i understand, i get those sometimes that kicks me in butt.

let me see what i have on it , see if that helps i have a Mitchel and all data and identfix.

all data is a little better on R&R procedure let see what i have on it and send you, i m traveling ,so if it is okay I will have you something by tomorrow on here

i do agree with 2 possibility you mentioned.

but the car did drove okay for 2 weeks and then failed is that correct ?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
One Correction:"but the car did drove okay for 2 weeks and then failed is that correct ?"
Codes and Rough Idle Started Within First 50 Miles According To Customer, They Live aprox 130 miles from my shop and it was 2 weeks until they were able to return. I did run smooth with no codes when it left.
A couple Other Pieces of info This Is a Re-man Head With Cams.This car had had #2 intake valve replace about 1 year prior to coming in my shop with a dead cylinder, which was found to be caused by a broken #2 intake Valve,Concerned About Previous Machine Work And Having heavy scoring and un-reparable damage on camshaft's and corresponding journals in the old head Made In Unusable
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

2009 Ford Truck Escape 2WD L4-2.5L

Save Article

Timing Drive Components Removal NOTICE: Do not loosen or remove the crankshaft pulley bolt without first installing the special tools as instructed in this procedure. The crankshaft pulley and the crankshaft timing sprocket are not keyed to the crankshaft. The crankshaft, the crankshaft sprocket and the pulley are fitted together by friction, using diamond washers between the flange faces on each part. For that reason, the crankshaft sprocket is also unfastened if the pulley bolt is loosened. Before any repair requiring loosening or removal of the crankshaft pulley bolt, the crankshaft and camshafts must be locked in place by the special service tools, otherwise severe engine damage can occur. NOTICE: During engine repair procedures, cleanliness is extremely important. Any foreign material, including any material created while cleaning gasket surfaces, that enters the oil passages, coolant passages or the oil pan can cause engine failure. 1. With the vehicle in NEUTRAL, position it on a hoist. 2. Remove the engine front cover. For additional information, refer to Engine Front Cover See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement See: Timing Components. 3. Compress the timing chain tensioner in the following sequence. 1. Using a small pick, release and hold the ratchet mechanism. 2. While holding the ratchet mechanism in the released position, compress the tensioner by pushing the timing chain arm toward the tensioner. 3. Insert the paper clip into the hole to retain the tensioner.

4. Remove the 2 bolts and timing chain tensioner.

5. Remove the timing chain tensioner arm.

6. Remove the timing chain. Installation 1. Install the camshaft sprockets and the bolts. Do not tighten the bolts at this time.

7. Remove the 2 bolts and the timing chain guide.

8. NOTICE: The Camshaft Alignment Plate is for camshaft alignment only. Using this tool to prevent engine rotation can result in engine damage. Using the flats on the camshaft to prevent camshaft rotation, remove the bolt and the exhaust camshaft sprocket.

9. NOTICE: The Camshaft Alignment Plate is for camshaft alignment only. Using this tool to prevent engine rotation can result in engine damage. Using the flats on the camshaft to prevent camshaft rotation, remove the bolt and the camshaft phaser and sprocket.

Installation 1. Install the camshaft sprockets and the bolts. Do not tighten the bolts at this time.

2. Install the timing chain guide and the 2 bolts. - To install, tighten to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).

3. Install the timing chain.

4. Install the timing chain tensioner arm.

NOTE: If the timing chain plunger and ratchet assembly are not pinned in the compressed position, follow the next 4 steps. 5. NOTICE: Do not compress the ratchet assembly. This will damage the ratchet assembly. Using the edge of a vise, compress the timing chain tensioner plunger.

6. Using a small pick, push back and hold the ratchet mechanism.

7. While holding the ratchet mechanism, push the ratchet arm back into the tensioner housing.

8. Install a paper clip into the hole in the tensioner housing to hold the ratchet assembly and the plunger in during installation.

9. Install the timing chain tensioner and the 2 bolts. Remove the paper clip to release the piston. - Tighten to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).

10. NOTICE: The Camshaft Alignment Plate is for camshaft alignment only. Using this tool to prevent engine rotation can result in engine damage. Using the flats on the camshafts to prevent camshaft rotation, tighten the bolts. - Tighten to 72 Nm (53 lb-ft).

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

was all these steps performed and did you skip any
Please let me know

Thank You

Chad Farhat

ASE Certified Technician

Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

Front engine cover

Removal NOTICE: Do not loosen or remove the crankshaft pulley bolt without first installing the special tools as instructed in this procedure. The crankshaft pulley and the crankshaft timing sprocket are not keyed to the crankshaft. The crankshaft, the crankshaft sprocket and the pulley are fitted together by friction, using diamond washers between the flange faces on each part. For that reason, the crankshaft sprocket is also unfastened if the pulley bolt is loosened. Before any repair requiring loosening or removal of the crankshaft pulley bolt, the crankshaft and camshafts must be locked in place by the special service tools, otherwise severe engine damage can occur. NOTICE: During engine repair procedures, cleanliness is extremely important. Any foreign material (including any material created while cleaning gasket surfaces) that enters the oil passages, coolant passages or the oil pan can cause engine failure. 1. With the vehicle in NEUTRAL, position it on a hoist. 2. Remove the accessory drive belt and the smooth idler pulley. 3. Remove the crankshaft pulley. For additional information, refer to Crankshaft Pulley See: Harmonic Balancer - Crankshaft Pulley > Removal and Replacement > Crankshaft Pulley See: Cylinder Block Assembly > Procedures. 4. Remove the engine mount. For additional information, refer to Engine Mount See: Engine Mount > Removal and Replacement > Engine Mount. 5. NOTICE: Use care not to damage the engine front cover or the crankshaft when removing the seal. Using the Oil Seal Remover, remove the crankshaft front oil seal.

6. Remove the 3 bolts and the coolant pump pulley. 7. Remove the 2 bolts and the accessory drive belt idler pulley and bracket. 8. Disconnect the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor electrical connector. 9. Remove and the 2 bolts and the CKP sensor. 10. Remove the bolts, stud bolt and the engine front cover.

Installation 1. NOTICE: Do not use metal scrapers, wire brushes, power abrasive disks or other abrasive means to clean sealing surfaces. These tools cause scratches and gouges which make leak paths. Clean and inspect the mounting surfaces of the engine and the front cover. 2. NOTE: The engine front cover must be installed and the bolts tightened within 4 minutes of applying the silicone gasket and sealant. Apply a 2.5 mm (0.09 in) bead of silicone gasket and sealant to the cylinder head and oil pan joint areas. Apply a 2.5 mm (0.09 in) bead of silicone gasket and sealant to the front cover.

3. Install the engine front cover. Tighten the bolts in the sequence shown, to the following specifications:
- Tighten the 8-mm bolts and stud bolt to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).

- Tighten the 13-mm bolts to 48 Nm (35 lb-ft).

4. Install the accessory drive belt idler pulley and bracket and the 2 bolts.
- Tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb-ft).

5. Install the coolant pump pulley and bolts.
- Tighten to 20 Nm (177 lb-in).

6. NOTE: Remove the through bolt from the Camshaft Front Oil Seal Installer.

NOTE: Lubricate the oil seal with clean engine oil.

Using the Camshaft Fro 7. Install the engine mount. For additional information, refer to Engine Mount See: Engine Mount > Removal and Replacement > Engine Mount. 8. Install the crankshaft pulley. For additional information, refer to Crankshaft Pulley See: Harmonic Balancer - Crankshaft Pulley > Removal and Replacement > Crankshaft Pulley See: Cylinder Block Assembly > Procedures. 9. NOTICE: Only hand-tighten the bolt or damage to the front cover can occur. Install a 6 mm x 18 mm bolt through the crankshaft pulley and thread it into the front cover. nt Oil Seal Installer, install the crankshaft front oil seal.

10. Install the CKP sensor and the 2 bolts.
- Do not tighten the bolts at this time.

11. Using the Crankshaft Sensor Aligner, adjust the CKP sensor. - Tighten the 2 CKP bolts to 7 Nm (62 lb-in).

12. Connect the CKP sensor electrical connector.

13. Remove the 6 mm x 18 mm bolt.

14. Install the accessory drive belt and smooth idler pulley. 15. Using the scan tool, perform the Misfire Monitor Neutral Profile Correction procedure, following the on-screen instructions.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
That is All The Same Procedure I Used, Although I Also Have The Instructions From The Tool That Describe The Crank Pin A Little More, but Like Your Info, It's Lacking A good Description Of Exact Position For Crank Pin Contact, As Well As Any guide To The Orientation Of The VCT Sprocket to Camshaft. I May Be Over Thinking This Because I Have Used This Timing Procedure Before With No Issues
The Other Thing I Am Starting To Wonder About Is The Tone Wheel On The Back Of The Intake Cam, Is There Any Way To Check Its Position, Maybe It Got Pressed On Incorrectly, Could That Cause A Rough Idle or Just Codes?
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Still Waiting???
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

sorry you waiting but i m off today,so i m just checking my messages occasional today,anyway

yes it would , the only issue with this ,is how it left your shop without any problems, if it was pressed in wrong , it will have the issue as soon as you drive off

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I was Thinking Not Enough Drive Cycles For The CEL, But You Are Right The Rough Idle Should Have Shown Up Right Away. Tomorrow I Will Re-Install The Timing Tools And Take Some Pictures Maybe You Will See Something I'm Missing. I am Going To Be Pretty Persistant For Help. I have this Posted On SureTrack With No Help And I Cannot Afford Identifix So Your It For Now . If It Seems To Be To Ugly A Problem For You To Mess With Please Don't Waste Our Time.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

yes i like to see pictures , i will tell you if i can help or not after i see them , if not i will opt out for you and maybe another expert can help with it , no worries i understand the situation

I will be traveling tomorrow, and be off line for 36 hours , just to let you know .

Chad

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Timing Tools Show It To Be Perfectly In Time. Also Crank Sensor Is Perfectly Lined Up Over The Trigger As It Should Be, I am Thinking I would Love To Know Where The Tone Wheel Is Supposed To Be. Maybe The Rough Idle taking so long to show up is from carbon buildup from incorrect spark or fuel timing. If I can Get Some Info On The Tone Ring Maybe I can Rule Out At Least One Possibility.
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.
Ok I m on my phone , it is not loading up the image ,give 12 hrs I be home behind desktop I like to see those pictures, get back to you ASAP,thank you for your patience
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Have You Looked At Those Pictures Yet
Expert:  Chad Farhat replied 10 months ago.

hey, I looked at them just now , and everything looked perfect to me , soory

I will opt out for another expert to help you on it .

good luck sorry again .

Chad

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
If This Is The Best Service You Have To Offer I Better Be Getting A Refund. 4 days and all I Get is a code definition I already Had, And A "I Don't Know I'm Going To Opt Out".
Expert:  Juan Crespo replied 10 months ago.

Hi there. Different expert here.

First of all, everything on those pics looks OK - good job on your part.

Ford has a TSB out on these symptoms. The issue is debris in the oil system contaminating the variable cam timing that is making the engine run rough at lower RPM. The first step will be VCT replacement. Next you'll need to find where the contamination came from; like an aftermarket oil filter or prior oil changes that went too long in between and caused sludge built up.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Have already replaced VCT, if you read the post's. The TSB describes A brief Delay in Return of VCT to 0, I can't Ever Get 0 On The VCT Error PID, Currently Showing 35 Degrees. I Do not know How Far The VCT Can Degree The Cam But I Doubt It's 35 degrees, Maybe It Is, Never Have Been Able To Find Any Info On That Or The Tone Wheels Correct Orientation.
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Going To Order A Ford Cam Monday And Compare The Tone Wheel To Mine On Monday. If You Find Anything On It Or The VCT Please Let Me Know
Expert:  Juan Crespo replied 10 months ago.

Sorry for the delayed response - internet service went down and it hasn't been fully restored as of yet.

I guess I'm missing your post about having replaced the VCT.

I had assumed the replacement head had the right components properly installed. As it is, if you're sure oil pressure/restriction is not a factor, VCT solenoid is not stuck open and VCT assembly is good, then the only other possibility is cam timing being off fooling the computer into thinking the issue is caused by a fault in VCT functionality.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I'm Not Sure That Restriction Or Pressure are Not The Problem, But Without Some Information I Cannot Determine This. I need To Know How Far The VCT Can Adjust The Timing, or Where The Tone Ring Is Supposed To Be Oriented, In Order To Deduce What Is Causing The Discrepancy. I Am A Professional Mechanic For 14 years, And As Of The Last 2years a Independent Shop Owner In Missouri, "Shoemake's Trading LLC",. I'm Good At My Job Because I Know When To Ask For Help, And I Never Assume I Know It All. With This Vehicle I Have Hit A Information Wall. Head Shop Has Only Done A Few For Gasket Leaks With No Issues. Local Ford Dealer Has Only Performed The Software Update's And A Few VCT Replacements With No Abnormalities. This Is Where I Am At A Loss, No One Can Give Me Enough Information To Prove What Is Wrong.
The Pictures I Posted Are After VCT Sprocket Replacement And Accompanying Test Drive, And The Timing Still Shows Dead On. If That Is True The Computer Only Has Two Sensors To Verify This. One Crankshaft, And One On The Intake Camshaft (Same Cam As VCT). Since Both Are Held In Place By Timing Tools My Mind Say's That either The VCT Sprocket Is Somehow Misaligned With The Corresponding Oil Holes In The Cam Causing False Engagement Or The Tone Wheel Is In The Wrong Position, Or Debris Causing False Engagement.
I Am Thinking That Even If The Crank Was Not Properly Seated On The Timing Pin. That If The Crankshaft Pulley Is Aligned Then The Computer Would Not Be Able To See The Error, And Since The Crank Tone Wheel Is Held In Place By A Bolt Then The Sensor Centered Over The Tooth, That That Would Leave Only The Intake Cam To Be Out Of Time, And Since It Is Held In Place By The Timing Bar I'm Thinking It Has To Be The VCT Or The Tone Wheel Causing My Issue Please Let Me Know What Your Thoughts Are.
Expert:  Juan Crespo replied 10 months ago.

Sorry once again - internet service has gone from bad to worse. I'll opt out so others may help. Please don't reply until another expert responds or the question will cycle back to me.

Expert:  david craig replied 10 months ago.

Hi Im David, just gonna throw my two cents in here. I had a similar issue with a vct sprocket have the locating pin loose and it actually wallowed out the hole on the front of the cam. not sure if that is your issue or not. cheers.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
No Pin, Or Key way On This Engine All Sprockets Held By Friction. I Really Wish You Guys Would Read The Post Before Responding
Expert:  Dan replied 10 months ago.

Have you checked compression while cranking? if it a mechanical timing issue your compression would be low.

Expert:  Dan replied 10 months ago.

Just a thought.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I have a compression tester. I didn't think to check that since it runs, but I will in a few hours. I called and Ordered an Intake Cam From Ford This Morning For $20 Which Has Me Thinking That There Has Been Other Problems With These Cams.
Expert:  Dan replied 10 months ago.

Have you replaced the cam phaser? It could be stuck in the advanced position. Does it move the timing advance when driving under load when the vct solenoid avtivates? You can look at the scan tool while driving it.

Expert:  Dan replied 10 months ago.

Its on the intake cam only. Ford has been known for cam phaser problems as well.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Sorry I May Not Have Been Clear When I Say VCT(Variable Camshaft Timing) Sprocket That Is The Same Part Ford Refers To As A Phaser Is Some Cases, And Yes I Have Replaced It. The Solenoid Is Original. And No I Cannot See Any Movement on Scanner Due To Code Set On Startup VCT Actuation Is Prevented. I Didn't get Time Today To Run Compression On It. Will Do First Thing.
Expert:  Dan replied 10 months ago.

Maybe the vct solenoid is stuck.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Compression Checks Good. Unless You Can Provide Me Something Showing Where The Tone Wheel Is Suposed To Be Indexed I'm Waiting On My Ford Cam
Expert:  Dan replied 10 months ago.

Ok I wiil opt out and see if someone else has any more ideas.

Expert:  Wolfgang replied 10 months ago.

Thanks for choosing Just Answer . I'm Wolfgang here to help!!

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Below is my first answer or request for more information. If you do not understand it, or you need more information from me, or need me to go in more detail.

The teeth on the for the cam pic 100_1824 is there 5 or 6 teeth?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
6 teth
Expert:  Wolfgang replied 10 months ago.

good

by looking at the whole post . you have used the correct tools to lock it shown so the timing is correct . new solenoid to contol the oil for timing . and new variable gear . no debris in the screen and solenoid . the only thing is that the reluctor wheel is shifted or a 2.3 cam is used which is slightly different. 35 deg is not much in to really see unless a new cam is laid side to side to see the shift.

let me ask you this did you jump the solenoid to see if the timing changed while running? and was the crank time longer before it started to run?

please let me know!!

thanks

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I Have Not Jumped The Solenoid In Fear That If I Have Made A Mistake In The Base Timing Interference Will Happen At Some Point. Crank Time Has Always Been The Same, Unless You Are Talking About Crank Time With The Solenoid Jumped, I Have Not Tried That. Ford Cam Should Be Here Today Or Tomorrow.
Expert:  Wolfgang replied 10 months ago.

hey i do understand fully. you did use the tools correctly and lock both the cams and crank so the timing is correct . do you have the old variable timing gear?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Still Have The Old Gear
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I wish I Still Had The Old Cam I Sent Back As A Core . Que Face Palm
Expert:  Wolfgang replied 10 months ago.

ok good may need to use as a guide let me know when you have the cam

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Got The Cam. Tone Wheel Checked Out. Started Retracing My Steps And Found A Small Piece Of Aluminum Lodged In The VCT Solenoid Holding It Open. Removed Piece Replaced VCT Filter Again, and Presto VCT Error went from 35 Degrees To .06, Put About 50 Miles On It with No Issues. Also This Car Has Had Ford Oil Filters It's Whole Life And I Have Changed The Filter VCT Filter 3 Time Never Finding Any Debris In The Filter Or The VCT Until The Last TIme When I Decided To Pick At The Valve In The VCT Solenoid Like I Was Trying To Free A Stuck TCV On An Old Ford And The Piece Of Aluminum Fell Out And The Travel Doubled Of The Valve. Makes Me Feel Really Bright, but I Now Know That The VCT Is Capable Of Up To 35 Degrees Of Advance And I Think I Can Time One Of These In My Sleep Now.
Expert:  Wolfgang replied 10 months ago.

that is great to hear !!!

i bet you are relieved!!!

anything else?

if not.....

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If I have not addressed your original question to your liking yet, I hope you will reply and continue working with me, since your charged the full question value, regardless if you rate negative or not at all. If you rate me now, do not worry, you can still reply later to me.

Thanks

Wolfgang

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
you want me to rate you for being present when I figured out what was wrong. Neither Of My Questions about max VCT Cam Movement Or The Correct Position Of The Tone Wheel Were Ever Answered By You Or Any Of The Other Experts. All You Did Was Cut And Past Information That I Have Already. I Am Really Still Thinking I Should Get A Refund. Most I Can Credit Your Team For Is Slowing Me Down With False Expectations, Your Site Describing a Immediately Available Expert For My Question, One Of The Guy's Answering Opted Out As Soon As I Told Him There Were no Keys Or Pins For Timing, Something An Expert Should Have Known Easily. I Posted My Question On August 8th And Resolved The Problem Myself 11 days And 4 So Called Experts Later By Buying Known Good Parts Through Process Of elimination. Not The Way It Should Have To Go, And Definitely The Most Expensive . I Would Have Much Preferred To Get The Specs I Needed Here, But Never Did. I Was Just Going To Let It Go Being Cheep What Did I Expect, It Was Your Cut And Past Line About Bonuses Appreciated That Really Made My Skin Crawl.

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