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Ron
Ron, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 26683
Experience:  23 years with Ford specializing in drivability and electrical and AC. Ford certs and ASE Certs
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91 ford thunderbird: v8..5.0 liter 2 doors automatic

Customer Question

hi there, i have a 91 ford thunderbird v8, 5.0 liter 2 doors automatic. the problem is that sometimes dies and does not want to start and then couple hours or next day it will start like. starts and dies i suspect the fuel pump has low fuel pressure. let me
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Ford
Expert:  Walt-mod replied 2 years ago.

Hi,

 

I'm a moderator for this topic and I wonder whether you're still waiting for an answer. If you are, please let me know and I will do my best to find a Expert to assist you right away. If not, feel free to let me know and I will cancel this question for you. Thank you!

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
yes i am still wating for the answer, thanks.
Expert:  Walt-mod replied 2 years ago.
Sometimes, finding the right Expert can take a little longer than expected and we thank you greatly for your understanding. We'll be in touch again shortly.
Expert:  6Bucs replied 2 years ago.
Hello and welcome to just answer. My name is James. I agree that this may well be fuel related. Next time this occurs, spray some starting fluid into the intake tube, where the air filter housing is, up towards the engine and see if the vehicle will start momentarily. If so, then we know the symptom is fuel related. If you don't have access to a fuel pressure tester, many parts stores will loan one to you. The engine needs 33 psi of fuel minimum to run correctly
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
with key on or engine running? because it has 38 with key on, and 32 with engine running
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Relist: Incomplete answer.
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.

Hello and Welcome to Justanswer,

My name is XXXXX XXXXX I am here to try and assist your with your question.

Different expert here,

 

When it dies have you removed the coil wire from the coil tower and had a helper crank it over and if so do you have a nice blue spark from the tower?

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
yes it does.
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
If you have spark and good fuel pressure then the next step would be to install a noid light to one or more the injectors and see if you have injector pulse while cranking.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
well the problem is that while idle sometimes it dies and its hard to started but when it starts it runs normal for couple days and then again.
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Ok so when it dies, install a noid light on one of the injectors and see if your loosing injector pulse. You need fuel pressure , spark and injector pulse.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
hi ron, i just check for injector pulse by using a noid light but because i dont have a noid light that fits dirrectly on the connector i used 2 t pins on in hole connector then i used 2 test leads to go from the connector t pins to the noind light terminals and car right now does not want to start, and i am not getting any injector pulse. whats the next step??
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Do you have battery voltage on the red power wire to the injectors?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
at all times or with key on?
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
The injectors are controlled by the PCM (computer) thru ground switching. If you have power to the injectors and no pulse then you very likely have a bad driver in the PCM and if this is the cases the PCM would need to be replaced.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
i got vattery voltage on the red wire with key on.
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Then if you have no pulse the PCM is most likely bad. It ground switches the injectors to fire them.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
can it just be a rusty connection at the pcm?? can u tell where is it??
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
It isnt very likely but it will not hurt to have a look.The Electronic Control Assembly is located behind the righthand kick panel under the glove box.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
do u have a pinture or it or location because i look under the glove box on the side and vehaint and i dont see it..
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
You have to remove the kickpanel, its behind it.
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Here is the best Pic they have.

graphic
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

ok i unplug it clean the terninas and then plug it back, but the problem is the same. now is there anything also that i should check before condemp the pcm?? or u think at this point i have no other choise than to replace the pcm??

Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
There really isnt any thing else it can be if you loosing injector pulse and have power to the injectors.
Ron, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 26683
Experience: 23 years with Ford specializing in drivability and electrical and AC. Ford certs and ASE Certs
Ron and 6 other Ford Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
hi ron can u tell the steps to replace the pcm?? thanks so much..
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
The PCM is easy, simply remove the connector bolt (10 mm) and the clip and the PCM pulls right out.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
hi ron i just replaced the pcm and the problem its the same. i connected a test light to ground and a t pin on the back of one of the injertors, with key on i get power on both and while cranking test light connected this time to power i dont get ground on any of them. what do u think??
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
The Injectors are ground switched by the PCM and if the PCM has a good ground at pin 40 and Pin 60 it should drive the Injectors. Is this a new PCM and are all your grounds ok?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Do u have a squematic to see which pin is 40 and 60? Thanks for u patients..
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
The pins are numbered on the PCM connector .

Here is the diagram.

graphic
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

good morning ron, hope u are doing great. do u know if the numbers on the connector go like. and thanks again for u patience.

1 to 20 1 to 20

21 to 40 or 40 to 21

41 to 60 41 to 60

Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Yes they are small to see but yes that is the order they should go in.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

i am confuse about the midle line.

1 to 20

21 to 40

41 to 60

OR

1 to 20

40 to 21

41 to 60

 

Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Here is the pinpout that should help you.

graphicgraphic
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
ok. i connected my test light to battery power then the other end to pins 40 and 60 and i lights. now car only cranks but does not starts at all. when i open the switch i hear fuel pump goes on. this pcm i got it remanufacture. do u think its defective because i am not getting ground on the injectors.
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
The ground is driven by the PCM and if you have good ground to it on the 60 and 40 and you have good fuel pressure and spark there really isnt much else it can be.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
is it normal that both wires on the fuel injector get vattery voltage with key on?
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.

Yes both wires should be hot with the key on , the red wire is the power side and the other side is the ground switching side which should ground switch on cranking.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

hi ron today i try another new pcm and nothing. while cranking i notice that at the end of the cranking it wanted to start because i see some injector pulse but only at the end of the cranking time. then i keep trying and finnaly it start but right after it died. then it did it again and before it die i pump gas so stay on while i was pumping gas but when i let go the gas pedal like it loose the injector pulse and died again. now, do u think the distriburator has to do anything with it?? bacause i believe inside the distriburator there is a cam or crank sensor, and if it fails the car somethimes will start and others wont and it may die too.. what do u think??

Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
The distributor has a hall effect (stator) which send a signel to the module to fire the coil. If you have good spark from the coil then its not going to be a bad stator. Injector pulse is controlled by the PCM, if your sure the PCM is ok then you may have a wiring concern.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
any idea where to check?? or can u tell what would u do in a case like this??
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
I would double check that I have good spark, good fuel pressure and if they are ok and I have no injector pulse and your sure the PCM is good I would take a very close look at the PCM and the wiring to it . It may be time to seek out some one with more experience who can put his hands on it with you and see if together you can find the problem.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
do one of the wires from each injector go back to the pcm to suitch ground on and off or there is onother wires or conections involve?? after spending 300 on the pcm i can not afford to pay someone alse..
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
Yes the red power wire cones from the EEC relay and the other wires go back to the PCM.

Here is the diagram.

graphic
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
last saturday on one of my atteps to started, it started, then i shut it off and started again and again for several times and it started like there was nothing wrong. today i try it and nothing then i went back to check for spark and there was no spark ither signal to the injectors.. i check for spark at the coil and no spark there. then i check for voltage at the positive side of the connector with key on and there is voltage, after i check for ground while cranking on the negative side and nothing. now does the distriburator has to do anything with the signal to the coil to fire the spark plugs??
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
If you are loosing spark then yes the stator in the distributor is likey bad and if your replacing it you should also replace the ignition module.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
so i need to replace the distriburator?? and the module where is it is there a way to test it??
Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
You can replace the stator by removing the distributor and pressing the gear off, you do not need to replace the whole distributor. The beast way to test the module is to replace it with a known good unit.

graphic
Ron, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 26683
Experience: 23 years with Ford specializing in drivability and electrical and AC. Ford certs and ASE Certs
Ron and 6 other Ford Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

i finnaly replace the distriburator and its working every time i started. now it sounds like its out of timming how do i do to fix the timming issue??

Expert:  Ron replied 2 years ago.
You have to set timing at 10 BTDC with the SPOUT disconnected.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
can u splain with detail how to do that?? whats the spout and do i use a timming light to cylinder 1 then engine running and move the distriburator??
Expert:  david replied 2 years ago.
Hi thank you for your questions will do my best to help..

Different expert here.It looks like you have been round and round this car.. You will be a thunderbird master at the end of this one.. It sounds like you just about got it going..


To set the timing..

The spout connection needs to be pulled out so you can set the timing. With the spout in the computer will not see the change and will try to reset it..

The SPOUT connector Its located on the passenger side fire wall near the shock tower
It is tucked in on the passenger side at the firewall close to the area where the firewall and fender meet below the cowl vent panel under the hood. You will have to put your hand down in there and fish around. But if someone has done this in the past it could be anywhere around there.

It looks like this.

graphic

EEC-IV Thick Film Ignition System

This system is used on the fuel injected engines.

  1. Place the transmission in P or N .
  2. Turn all accessories off (A/C, heater...etc.).
  3. Connect an inductive timing light and tachometer to the No. 1 cylinder ignition wire.
  4. Disconnect the single wire in-line Spout connector or remove the shorting bar from the double wire Spout connector.
  5. Start the engine and allow it to reach operating temperature.

  6. With the engine at timing rpm, check/adjust initial timing to specifications.
    By turning the distributor.

  7. Engage the single wire in-line Spout connector or the shorting bar to the double wire Spout connector. Check the timing advance to verify the distributor is advancing beyond the initial timing.

  8. Remove the test equipments.

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