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Scott W.
Scott W., Ford Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 2938
Experience:  28 yrs. experience as Ford ASE Master Technician. Accolades include being a 2005 Ford PTS Regional Finalist and 2006 ASE Ford National Technician.
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I have a 2005 Ford 500 with a CVT transmission, no check engine

Customer Question

I have a 2005 Ford 500 with a CVT transmission, no check engine light or codes in the pcm tcm abs or rear diff computer. Transmission feels like its slipping engine RPM are going and the car is struggling to make speed. The car has around 98K never serviced, fluid level ok fluid dirty, Removed internal filter behind cooler lines and found large amounts of metal. Removed and transmission and replaced with a used CVT with 26K. After install, flushed cooler and replaced lines and both transmission filter. Re filled with CVT fluid from ford. Road test and transmission feels like the other one! Re programmed all computers with latest calibration and still no luck
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Ford
Expert:  Scott W. replied 3 years ago.

Steve W :

Hello my name isXXXXX does the engine rev and pull ok, do you think the concern is engine performance related or transmission related?

Customer :

Hi steve my name isXXXXX you for your time. The engine feels great

Customer :

It feels transmission related

Steve W :

Does it feel like the throttle is being cut back?

Customer :

not at all

Steve W :

Is there any noise associated with this problem?

Customer :

no noise at all

Customer :

the engine will rev to 5K

Customer :

if I feather the throttle I can make the car get up to 55mph

Steve W :

And the wrench light doesn't come on?

Customer :

no wrench light at all, system pass from PCM to TCM

Customer :

CVT pressure are at spec also

Steve W :

Are you a tech?

Customer :

yes

Steve W :

Ok, cool

Steve W :

Let me do some research and see if I can find anything on the ford system, can I have the VIN?

Customer :

sure 1FAFP28175G166969

Customer :

I have checked with OASIS for TSB ssm

Customer :

no luck

Customer :

steve have you worked on many cvt's? this is my first

Steve W :

I have worked on less than a dozen.

Customer :

they are very diffrent

Steve W :

I am not finding any real solid information of the Ford site, since the wrench light does not come on and no codes are set, have you driven this at least 3 times to see if a trouble code will set?

Customer :

I thought maybe a problem in the PTO

Customer :

yes i have and still no trouble codes, very weird

Steve W :

Did you see the tsb about wire harness chafe by ac lines at rear of engine?

Customer :

no

Steve W :

If you load it in gear, like power brake, not moving, does the trans slip and go to 5000?

Customer :

is the tsb like the one for the older windstars

Customer :

when i power brake it forward or revere, the engine loads up to around 1500-2300rpm

Customer :

almost like the computer is stopping it from breaking free, but no slipping

Steve W :

I would look at this harness at see if you can see anything there, since there are no codes, I having a hard time believing the trans is at fault, if the trans was slipping the wrench light should come on immediately.

Steve W :

I can opt out if you like and see if any body else has ran into this.

Customer :

steve i will look at harness in the morning, i missed that tsb! i agree about the transmission

Steve W :

Ok sounds good

Customer :

i ll write you back once i ve looked at it. Thank you again

Steve W :

I would look at the throttle body pids while driving also just to be sure everything is ok there also.

Customer :

ok i will do that also, i have driven many cvt's and this one is so not right

Steve W :

Ok, the bad part is I am online only after 6pm central.

Customer :

and a lot of work putting a used one in and finding out it does the samething

Steve W :

Been there that sucks.

Customer :

yup

Customer :

i write you after 6 your time

Steve W :

Thank you Frank, we'll talk tomorrow.

Customer :

I ll tell you after seeing the internal filter behind the cooler lines filled with metal! its amazing

Customer :

ok thank you steve

Steve W :

No problem

Customer :

Hello steve

Steve W :

Hello

Steve W :

Go ahead and ask your questions and I will respond as fast as I can, we are kind of busy tonight.

Customer :

Steve I did perform that TBS. no luck all wires checked ok. I even pulled the cowl panel up to check wires to PCM and all looked ok.

Steve W :

Ok, let me reread this.

Steve W :

Okay, did the first cvt do exactly the same thing as the second?

Customer :

yes it did

Customer :

at first it did not seem that way but after driving it for a bit. I have to say yes

Steve W :

Do you still think it is trans related, or do you think it may be a driveability concern?

Customer :

i don t think its driveability concern because the way the car runs. The engine feels good and strong

Customer :

i was really praying it was going to be that TSB

Steve W :

If you want I can open this up for other experts and see if someone else has ran into a similiar concern.

Customer :

that would be awesome steve, thank you

Steve W :

Okay thanks for your time.

Scott W., Ford Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 2938
Experience: 28 yrs. experience as Ford ASE Master Technician. Accolades include being a 2005 Ford PTS Regional Finalist and 2006 ASE Ford National Technician.
Scott W. and 6 other Ford Specialists are ready to help you
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 3 years ago.

Hi Customer. Thank you for asking your question on JustAnswer.

 

It sounds like you guys have it pretty well covered. If the stall speed in D is that low then I would say the forward clutch is holding adequately. If you have an IDS or a way to display trans pids I would take a look at commanded variator ratio and actual variator ratio while the problem is occurring. This would tell you if there is any actual chain slip in the variators. These pids are VAR_CMD and VAR_MES. The measured should be the same as the commanded. I would also do the same with the converter lock. For this you monitor the TCC current command and actual. After TCC amp gets anywhere above 300ma then monitor TSS_SRC and RPMTCM they should be equal anytime TCC_AMP is over 300MA. If all of these are ok then I doubt the issue is in the tranmission. In my experience with these the TCM is very sensitive to ratio errors and would most certainly at least be setting a general ratio code such as P0730. How much metal was in the HP filter? was it shiny like aluminum if rinsed off or darker like steel? I have seen these filters pretty loaded with fine aluminum without any trans concerns in the past. What are the actual pid pressures while the problem is occurring for pids PCA,PCB,PCC ???

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
thank you for your time, i ve monitored pca and pcc while driving they move between 238-330lbs When i pulled the internal filter it was aluminum
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
thank you for your time, i ve monitored pca and pcc while driving they move between 238-330lbs When i pulled the internal filter it was aluminum. i did go in today and changed pcm ratio for transmission, it mad the transmission worse and the check engine light came on. so i know i was able to make a code. I put the ratio back and the transmission felt the same. I am using ngs with can, i did monitor tss src and its rpm was the same with engine rpm, oss reads like rpm signal and it never went over 500 whikle driving. is it possible to have a pto problem? i know the left axle is driven right from trans, but the pto is the only part not computer controlled?
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 3 years ago.
How about the VAR_CMD and VAR_MES, these are the most important out of all of them. Can you describe the symptom in a little more detail? For instance, When you go wide open from a stop how does the trans pull? Does the engine quickly go to redline or does it top out and rpm starts to reduce? When cruising at 40 then tipping in to the gas about 1/3 throttle how high does the rpm actually go? What does PCA do at wide open throttle when when the vehicle is moving? You know what a properly functioning CVT feels like right? Stupid question right? Just making sure you know how they feel when operating correctly. What is the ETC_TAC pid at idle in park with all accessories off? Sorry for all the questions, this problem has my interest up, I have rebuilt many CVT's but have not seen this issue since they have been out. As far as the PTU goes I have no idea, I have never seen one ever have a problem except for the countless number of axle seals I have replaced in them.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
kenny i did not monitor those pids but i can in the morning, never a stupid question! yes i have driven many cvt's never had any with problem come into my shop. I know cvt from a stop pull very nice, the one I m working on when from a stop your lucky if your going to get it up to 30mph! the engine will scream up to 4k and go past to the point i can hear the engine start to ping! if i feather the throttle nicely with no cars behind me i can get it rolling to 60mph. while your cruising if you wanted to pass a car for example, when pushing on throttle then engine starts to scream like it wants to go but transmission is not on the same page
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
i know the pto units are really good, even going back to the awd v8 explorers! besides changing black fluid at 15k miles lol. i know the left axle is driven right out of the transmission, thr right axle is driven from the pto. I was wondering if the drive axle is the right side coming from the pto and if the pto unit was junk would you see a diffrence? besides not have rear drive
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
sorry the pca at wot can get up to 400lbs
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 3 years ago.
Ok cool. While you are looking at those pids also monitor eng load. It almost sounds like you might have got a trans with the same problem? The pids will tell. I wonder what would happen if you unplugged the mechtronic and drove it again unplugged. That would eliminate all the engine control side and should put the TCM is some sort of limp mode, hopefully at max pressure...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
kenny sorry i haven t got back to you about the 500, its been busy at shop. I will check all those pids you said to check tuesday
Expert:  Kenny Z. replied 3 years ago.

Just so you know, you accepted Steve's answer even though he opted out of the question. Please indicate which answer you are accepting by stating I accept (experts name) answer.

 

Thanks,

 

Kenny

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Scott W.
Scott W.
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2646 Satisfied Customers
28 yrs. experience as Ford ASE Master Technician. Accolades include being a 2005 Ford PTS Regional Finalist and 2006 ASE Ford National Technician.