Finance Questions? Ask a Financial Expert for Answers ASAP
Hello, my name isXXXXX & I'll be helping you today. My goal is to give you a complete & accurate answer that you can understand.
You'll need to explain exactly what you are doing & what your circumstances are?
I've been hiring nurses to take care of my spouse for 15 years as a partnership..... But I'm filing for a new ein because the entity is changing to a single owner.
Well, you aren't operating a business so that's one important factor. Are you treating these nurses as employees and withholding payroll taxes, filing payroll tax returns, etc.?
I could probably go 'sole proprietor' or 'house hold employee' == or not,,,,, I do get paid by ins co, and there is income..
Yes to all your questions
employees, all withholding
payroll co processing - yes
Well, if you have nurses that are providing medical care, you would not need to file anything in terms of an income tax return for this activity; all you would do is claim the medical expense on Schedule A and show the insurance reimbursements on a separate line which is provided in the same place.
Are you saying you are using a payroll processing company? That makes it a lot easier for you if that's the case.
Yes, they are not Independant contractors, full with holding 941 & 940
OK, there's no business involved here, so you wouldn't file a Schedule C as a sole proprietorship.
As I said above, you would report everything on Schedule A - Itemized Deductions.
Why would you say no business, I do make a profit
These nurses are taking care of your wife?
Can we pick this up tomorrow, I thought I would have time? yes, my wife..... They also take her places and work for her if hospitalized
Sure, but how are you making a profit?
Ins co pays me more than nurses make, I claim home office
Just respond here that you are back; do you know approximately when tomorrow?
What time are u on est
I'm flexible, but don't know tomorrow, unless you know approx when; early morning or evening is usually best.
Give me a shout when your on?
EST Best time 10am-6pm
OK, are you available?
Can you tell me how the insurance company reports these payments to you? Do they issue a 1099? If so, what form is it exactly & how are the payments categorized to you.
I'll be back later this afternoon & will check in here.
Sorry - never received email you were here:
Let me explain entire way we've been running things: (I'll leave here and type "done" when completed:
1) My spouse is covered 100% by ins company for medical expenses
2) 18 Years ago we started having trouble with nursing agencies > Ins co didn't want liability of paying nurses directly > So it was suggested we open a business to hire our own nurses
3) Started a sole proprietorship > applied for EIN > hired payroll company > nurses are employees > full deductions with employer (me) paying my share of tax burden
4) I pay our money out of pocket > fill out an invoice and charge ins co > they pay set rate which was hard to come up with to break even
5) Remember there is our share of taxes, gross salary, payroll processing, every now and then advertizing, (I write off home office & then there is selve employment tax - end of year)
6) I receive 1099-Misc > for taxes > total paid is in box 6 (medical & health care payments) to my EIN
7) You see the ins co won't reimburse for every little item so we came up with an hourly wage a specific % above what the nurses get paid per hour > so we usually make a profit by year end (it was originally suppose to be a reimbursement, but ins co did not want to act as the payor of all expenses)
If you want to continue what you have been doing, then you need to operate as a sole proprietor.
However, the alternative is to handle 100% of your medical expenses (reimbursed & unreimbursed) on Schedule A & show the insurance company payments there also; that's the way the insurance company is reporting it to you;
If there was an excess reimbursement, it would be reported as "other income" on line 21 of the 1040.
The reason the question about 'household employee' came up is because about 2 years ago we changed it to a 'partnership' > but it's more paperwork 1065, k-1s > so we are changing it back to a Sole proprietor or household employeee
What do you mean the ins co is reporting to me?
You are using a service bureau so there's no need to get involved with Household Employee reporting; that is mainly for housekeepers, live in maids, etc.
The insurance company is reporting the "reimbursements" as medical payments; those reimbursements would normally be on Schedule A.
Every tax year has been filled out on schedule C ...... So if I fill out a schedule A vs. C = does that save me money at end of year?
Are you paying health insurance premiums?
1. You aren't operating a trade or business; your activity consists solely of incurring medical expenses for your wife. That means technically you shouldn't be reporting this activity on a Schedule C.
Schedule A vs schedule C,,,,,, are all the write-offs the same?
2. You should not be, and on Schedule A & line 21 (if applicable) will not generate self-employment tax, so that would be a savings.
All of your expenditures must be classified as ordinary & necessary medical expenses for your wife; it doesn't matter whether you use Schedule A or Schedule C.
What about home office, office supplies, payroll processing fees, advertizing, etc -- can these be called expenditures?
The primary purpose of incurring these expenses is to provide ordinary & necessary medical care for your wife. As I said, it doesn't matter what form you use, if these expenses are ordinary & necessary to provide her medical care, they would be deductible as medical expenses.
As far as any expenses that are reimbursed, I doubt that the IRS would be concerned about whether or not they meet the test of ordinary & necessary as the insurance company has made that determination to reimburse them.
Lets get away from the word "reimburse", as far as the ins co goes I'm just another provider..
It really doesn't matter what you do as far as reporting on your income taxes; the main issue is that you are handling the payroll reporting properly. The insurance company is treating the reporting as payments to you for services provided to an insured; that's why they are classified as medical payments. That's the same classification they use for doctors, nurses, etc.
If it were me & I was preparing your returns, I would report everything on Schedule A. Schedule C discloses everything in detail whereas Schedule A does not require that. There's no reason to expose yourself to that extra scrutiny by using Schedule C.
So your saying when I apply for a new ein, I'm stilll a sole prop, I do everything I've been doing, but report everything on schedule A and not C
Well, you aren't really a sole proprietor as you aren't conducting a trade or business.
Line 9a of ss-4, I have to be something?
OK, let me look at it
other - Medical Employer
And the word 'employer' doesn't make me a business, I need a DBA Name
No, you do not need a dba name
I'm not saying your wrong but hear me out: Why after all these years of filing under schedule C hasn't the IRS questioned it? I use TurboTax and it always dumps me into schedule C? And my insurance co makes the 1099 out to my DBA? I don;'t use my name because nurses don't want to work for "John Doe", but they will work for "Sun Health"?
Look, here's the deal -- the IRS has no clue what's going on unless they audit you; as I said before, if you want to use Schedule C, the only issue that the IRS could raise would be if you reported a loss on Schedule C which was used to reduce your taxable income; they aren't going to bother you if you are paying too much in taxes, unless you were trying to qualify for additional social security benefits; since that isn't the case, you have nothing to worry about. File your SS-4 as a sole proprietor and use your DBA and report everything on Schedule C. That won't be a problem as long as you are generating a loss.
should be aren't generating a loss
I got you---
But what your saying is if I get an ein, and fill it out as other, no dba = I can deduct home office and all of the expenditures I've been writing off all these years as schedule C...... Write it off using schedule A and save money because there is no self employment tax, correct?
Yes. If you have a medical expense on Schedule C then it would also be a medical expense on Schedule A.
OK, another account told me different -- but I'll look into it further, maybe calling the irs....... sorry this went beyond the scope of the original question.....
You won't get anything you can use from the IRS. The people that operate those lines read from scrips and frankly they won't understand what you are asking. In your case, you obviously want to continue to operate as if you were running a business with a profit motive rather than providing a service to your wife for her to obtain her medical care. So, particularly if you do your own returns, I think you should stick with Schedule C and continue to do what you have been doing all along. It will be less confusing to you and you are familiar with operating that way.
If you need to contact me again with any tax or financial questions, you can just ask for "Steve G" at the beginning of your question. Thanks again for using us for your tax and financial questions. You may get a short survey from the site; if it isn't too much trouble I would appreciate it if you would answer it; the survey results are used to rate our performance;
No problem, thanks a lot :)
I found 6 sites that state schedule C should be used when receiving a 1099-Misc with Box 6 filled in.
All that info you gave me about using schedule A is incorrect - read the Irs Pub..
Relist: Inaccurate answer. At least refund 50% of my payment and bonus/tip....... I was given the incorect answer as to where to file a 1099-misc box 6..... I was told I should be using schedule A, I've been using schedule C for many years . I'm just glad I checked his advice on other sites, they all say a 1099-misc should be reported on schedule C -- this site includes the correct IRS pub http://www.taxact.com/tsupport/FAQDisplay.asp?Question=1198
Hi,Is it possible that you are receiving the 1099-C erroneously, because the issuing company thinks that you are medical care provider?Unless I've missed something above,it sounds like you are trying to turn helping in your wife's care into a business.Do you have either (1) a license to operate in one of the areas on this page http://ahca.myflorida.com/licensing_cert.shtml OR (2) know of a statute exempting you from such licensing?I only say this potentially to help you "see around some corners" in the future, but if the insurance company knew that this is all really about providing for nursing care for your wife, they would not be sending a 1099.Have I understood the questions correctly? or are you actually a nursing referral agency or one of the other for profit businesses in the area f health care?My intuition says that the earlier expert was spot on. These are medical reimbursements that should be reported as medical expenses, not reimbursements to an agency providing nursing care.If you can provide a little more information, I can help point you in the right direction (and it MAY be that there is an exemption in the health care law of Florida that lets you do this as a for-profit business, but my fear is that you could (again, worst case scenario) be running the risk of an insurance fraud claim.Help me understand more ... and depending on your answer, it may be appropriate to refer you to someone in our health Care Law area.It could also very well be that there's a way to do this legitimately. Can you tell me what communication was made to the insurance company to have them send a 1099?OR are you actually running a nursing agency or referral svc under a license or a statutory exemption and getting income form places OTHER than your wife's insurance company, (and receiving 1099 income from those other places as well?)We'll either continue down the tax road here, or refer this to one of our attorneys, depending on your answer, and what's appropriate.Let me know ...Lane
First of all:1. I answered your original question re Household Employees.2. My final recommendation to you, based upon the facts you presented at the time, was to continue to file as a sole proprietor, using Schedule C as that was what you were familiar with & what you were doing before you got into this Husband/Wife Partnership. The fact that the insurance company sends you a 1099-Misc with Box 6 Medical Payments, would not be determinative as to what would be the proper way to report the activity that you describe.Finally, you didn't explain that you had a prior agreement with the insurance company to set up the payment of your wife's claims under her policy in the manner that you have arranged to accommodate the insurance company's liability concerns.I trust you have a workmen's compensation insurance policy for your employees as well as a liability insurance policy for their professional services and to protect your company from any employer liability against any claim the services your company is providing.The botXXXXX XXXXXne here, as previously noted, is that you are not actually conducting a trade or business, but due to a prior agreement with the insurance company, you are treating the payment by the insurance company of the medical services that your wife requires, as if you were engaged in an activity with the motive of making a profit, the primary purpose of the activity. Of course, that is not actually the case as the primary purpose of your activity is to provide the medical services your wife requires, with the sole source of funding by one insurance company for one beneficiary, your wife.Now, just for your benefit and information, based upon current IRS regulations, a Husband-Wife Partnership may no longer be required to file a Partnership return on Form 1065 (and didn't have to do so for 2012 either). You may file 2 Schedule Cs as a Joint Venture if you & your wife both materially participate in the business and follow the proscribed procedures which are summarized in the instructions (page 2) for the latest Schedule C. A link to the instructions follows:http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sc.pdfHowever, if you both don't materially participate in it may be more straightforward to end the Husband-Wife partnership (since that has no tax consequences) and go forward as a sole proprietorship, as apparently you are planning to do.I hope you understand, that while on the surface, the 1099-Misc - Box 6 that you receive, indicates that it should be carried to a Schedule C, that presumes that the 1099-Misc was issued to a trade or business in the first place. I can assure you that, while you may be in fact reporting the activity that way, it technically does not meet the definition of a trade or business; however, in your particular circumstances, if anything, that treatment results in additional taxes, not less and therefore unless you were receiving some other tax benefit from that treatment (which we know you are not), the IRS is not likely to question what you are doing. My initial thoughts, with respect to Schedule A, were based upon trying to make the reporting less cumbersome for you, eliminate any possibility of self-employment taxes, and properly reflect what is actually transpiring here. In the past, with actual clients of mine in similar situations, I have had absolutely no trouble in defending that treatment with the IRS in circumstances where there was no actual primary profit motive and therefore no valid trade or business.I hope that this clarifies what the underlying issues are in terms of the extent of our discussion. You did not, in fact, receive any incorrect advice from us & I hope you understand that at this point.
There is no need to continue:
It seemed like you were just giving in to the way the business has been run for over 18 years by telling me to use S-C or S-A.. And then went on to say if you did my taxes you would use S-A..
I did basically explain the ins co suggested we open a business, maybe it needed better explaining - copy/paste from above:
Thank you for the information about 2 schedule Cs, we do both maternally participate but their was a reason we couldn't file that way in Florida-- I'll look into it further.
Thanks for your help....
Hello Stephen G.,I do have some further questions, forgive me if I'm back-peddling a little but with the government shutdown I can't obtain an EIN and it's given me more time to think about a few things.Since our conversations I have contacted my insurance company regarding your initial recommendation to not create another company and just apply for an EIN for hiring nurses to care for my wife, and at year end file my 1040 reporting all nursing expenses/expenditures on Schedule A.Please note: It has been 18 years since our insurance company recommended we start hiring nurses as employees under a sole proprietor and since then insurance adjusters have changed 4 times and their supervisors have changed and moved on at least twice. All representitives that were involved in the initial decision on starting a company have eiher retired or no longer work for the company. At no time did we have to sign any documents with the insurance company it was all just advice given to us by them, and they helped set up people to get us started.I contacted my wife's present adjuster (since 2010) requesting to talk to someone in the company regarding just how they want us to handle hiring nurses. The adjuster herself was no help at all because all she did was pick up where her predecessor left off (paying my invoices). The adjuster receives a weekly invoice from myself and I get paid 4-6 weeks later. So I asked her if there was someone in the company I could speak to about how they wanted us to file the 1099-Misc and she said it would need to be asked through her. So she wrote down our options and contacted their legal department which took 3 days to get no real answer except for recommending I consult an accountant. She also checked to see if there was anything in my wife's records but checking back that far was impossible because client records weren't computerized back then.Going back to the way you would file your clients receiving a 1099-misc Box 6 using Schedule 'A' I've found very little to no information on the Internet for hiring nurses without being some type of business entity. So please bare with me while I confirm a few things you've mentioned:1) Same expenditures for both Schedule C or A as long as they are ordinary and necessary in providing nursing/medical care. That includes Home Office, Office supplies & equipment, Use of vehicle, payroll processing, etc., etc. (sorry it just seems strange writing off a Home Office without a business?).2) Use line 21 (other income) for reporting payments over and beyond medical expenses paid.3) In Florida you do not require Workers Compensation unless you have 4 or more employees (I do not have WC, but I did try to obtain it over the years and no-one will insure 2-3 nurses under WC - it's considered a high risk category and for the few employees I have the premium would be high risk for the insuror).4) Same thing goes for liability insurance, no one would insure us but we are again looking into it.5) I'm providing a medical service but it's not a business, correct? So I just use my name for everything as a medical service provider?6) The nurses, are they still considered to be called 'my employees', even though there is no business?I still have a few quick questions but I'd rather wait until the above is sorted out.Thank you,No rush in replying--
I'll hire you tomorrow under a new question-