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Lane
Lane, JD, CFP, MBA, CRPS
Category: Finance
Satisfied Customers: 4186
Experience:  Providing Financial, Tax & Business advice since 1986
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To Lane, will these alternatives likely avoid the definition

Customer Question

To Lane, will these alternatives likely avoid the definition of giving advice for compensation?

I will attach them after this part once I copy it off the legal section I posted it in. One of the Australian lawyers said I should get a refund and closed that question. Then customer service here re-opened it.

I'm doing you a favour by asking another question - though I am fed up with many of the experts here

I believe your guess about whether one is advising for compensation is the key. You'd make a good attorney if anything ever goes wrong with the financial planning, but I don't think so. Two solicitors (not barristers) had a go at my legal question on this and neither did as well as you as to the intent of the law. In fact neither even attempted the question because they got stuck or confused by registration versus extra licensing. They could not identify the most common legislation they would have studied when I mentioned one of the regulatory bodies (ASIC which is the equivalent of the SEC). So I told them it is the Corporations Act 2001 and scolded them that just because I couldn't present my question in the ilac format doesn't mean it's a joke

Maybe I should have said to everyone, you included, that the process for qualifying as an accountant here is a bit like for a doctor: say they go through all the practicals and extra exams AFTER college to qualify for a particular branch, then they get full membership (paying fees that go up every year). That's the professional registration path. Then the government suddenly creates two sets of licenses. A surgeon who has been able to do general surgery, or even a heart specialist, suddenly finds they can't do this or that, eg can't do a transplant, without the extra licensing and renewed exams for that licensing. It is breaking up what accountants can do here.

Already the negative effects are happening, and we are not in a recession. We are in a stagnant and confused economy in Australia that economists don't have a word for: a housing market that hasn't corrected itself because of high demand yet the government trying to fight deflation. Nothing wrong with deflation for a change to re-set things. Japan is the only country that has allowed deflation many times and they never seem to suffer great economic crises

High costs to accountants are passed onto customers. There is a real correlation between price and demand. That is indisputable economics. There are some graduates of it here who are still looking for work. The GFC was not caused by accountants. I think in future more people will be confused as more of the tax laws keep changing. Not all qualified and experienced accountants are allowed to warn people or tell them anything without those licenses
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Finance
Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

NPVAdvisor :

Sounds good, and on the making a good lawyer part, I'm almost there ..../ as a matter of fact, I'm in the middle of finals for the classes that end mid year (My term this last year is a calendar year term).

NPVAdvisor :

But again, my specialty (electives) have all been one that enhance the ability to teach and run my practice in the interdisciplinary areas finance, tax, estate, retirement, investments and corporations & business entities.

NPVAdvisor :

but yes, you're spot on ... legislation first, then some regulating body (government agency, we would call it here), then potentially every day licensing may be delegated to a professional association or Self reg. auth. OF that profession... with whom you are registered

Customer:

OK, since you have an insight into what I've been trying to get a solution for, here are just my creative-thinking's ideas for how I might go about it. BUT mind you these are business ideas too that I don't want to go into detail in a public forum. Business ideas that finds a solution to help people despite the difficulties to them and to the professional. Ideas that applies real economic theories. Ideas that include real knowledge about the financial planning discipline.

Customer:

1) Teaching the public in Australia and overseas on an introduction to bonds, shares, savings deposits, interest rates and currency


 


 


 


2) Teaching how to read and understand company reports for the purpose of evaluating their own investments or superannuation


 


 


 


3) Basic financial maths analyses to help basic decision making on whether to buy, hold or sell an investment


 


 


 


4) Teaching or publishing info on individual, sole proprietor, or partnership tax rights, obligations and implications of investment and business. Basically making people aware of their rights to avoid silly mistakes


 


 


 


5) Teaching property investment, basic property law and information about various property managed funds or trusts


 


 


 


6) Teaching business tax laws, such as CGT, and how to fill their own tax forms (e.g on GST, FBT, import-export forms)


 


 


 


7) Teaching how to do their own payroll, employee superannuation obligations and records


 


 


 


8) Teaching how to set up a SMSF and general info on what is involved and what investment options are allowed


 


 


 


9) Providing a service in evaluating financial plans (statements of advice) from financial planners. Purpose to check for the accuracy of calculations, suitability to the client's goals, debt to equity mix, risk attitude, manageability/achievability, suitability and safety of the type of investment recommended, and tax implications, without recommending any specific alternative investment


 


 


 


10) Business financial distress advice: eg if it comes to it, explaining or laying out the steps toward voluntary bankruptcy or what happens if creditors are seeking to bankrupt them; explaining their options in either case, what assets they can keep, what they can dispose of (can that be specifically advised), time frame management, debt consolidation negotiation, and how to obtain a liquidator's service plus what that involves


 

Customer:

The Aussie lawyers were stumped; in fact, I suspect they didn't even read it. Heck, one of them has a Bachelor of Economics plus a Dip Ed

Customer:

Please switch to thread-discussion mode after you post

NPVAdvisor :

Got it ... I will switch right away ... but very quickly, you should look a designation (global in it's reach, called CFA, Chartered Financial Analyst) ... many MBA & Masters of Science in Finance programs have a track that satisfies the educational requirements and gets one ready to sit for the three sequential exams ... If you'll look at the CBOK (Candidate body of knowledge) you'll that it covers every single issue you've mentioned here, with the possible exception of the legal piece ..... see this: http://www.cfainstitute.org/programs/cfaprogram/courseofstudy/Pages/cbok.aspx ... switching now

Customer:

My screen says you're 'disconnected'. No pressure here on my part

Lane, JD, CFP, MBA, CRPS
Category: Finance
Satisfied Customers: 4186
Experience: Providing Financial, Tax & Business advice since 1986
Lane and other Finance Specialists are ready to help you
Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.
Our chat has ended, but you can still continue to ask me questions here until you are satisfied with your answer. Come back to this page to view our conversation and any other new information.

What happens now?

If you haven’t already done so, please rate your answer above. Or, you can reply to me using the box below.
Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

First thought,

yes .. IF you do so under as part of an accounting firm that can cover you under the umbrella of their registrations.

Yes, if you do this as an educational program, and offer workshops ... advertising your educational credentials OR under the umbrella of a college or university

Honestly, if you can trim down (make less broad and more pointed) you education path to move directly into working with a CFP's firm (with the intent of getting that licensing under their wing ,,, the things you mention ALL ring of financial planning
Lane, JD, CFP, MBA, CRPS
Category: Finance
Satisfied Customers: 4186
Experience: Providing Financial, Tax & Business advice since 1986
Lane and other Finance Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Actually, I saw in some discussions on financial planning sites here that the bigger firms were thinking of hiring their own graduate accountants (probably because retaining a full member accountant would cost more and they would be independent non-employees). I will go through what you recommended above for me to read


 


Here are excerpts from a newish regulatory body associated with the tax office here. The excerpts are about licensing for business activity statements and licensing for tax agent activity. They confuse people by calling it registration. It is currently $500 to apply for a full license in one, double for both, half price if no advice is given. Application fees don't guarantee acceptance, I assume. It mentions a new Act I'm not yet familiar with but some legislation are viewable on the austlii dot gov dot au site, I think


 


http://www.tpb.gov.au/TPB/Register/0319_Tax_agent_services.aspx
Tax agent services are services relating to:


ascertaining (that is, working out) or advising about liabilities, obligations or entitlements of entities (that is your clients) under a taxation law, or representing entities in their dealings with the Commissioner of Taxation (Commissioner) in relation to a taxation law.



...where it is reasonable to expect the entity will rely on the service to satisfy liabilities or obligations, or to claim entitlements under a taxation law. There is a legal requirement that you must not charge or receive a fee or other reward if you provide a service which you know or should reasonably know is a tax agent service and you are not a registered tax agent. A similar requirement applies to lawyers preparing or lodging tax returns, they too must register. These registration requirements are not part of the definition of tax agent services, but are set out in section 50-5 of the Tax Agent Services Act 2009 (TASA). For the definition of a tax agent service, refer to section 90-5 of the TASA.




To meet the requirements of the GST/BAS course you need to have completed:


BAS agent registration skill set, which consists of the following units:
FNSBKG404A Carry out business activity and instalment activity statement tasks, and
FNSBKG405A Establish and maintain a payroll system


OR


the equivalent of the BAS agent registration skill set.



The following units have been approved as meeting part of the requirements of the GST/BAS course. (Then a substantial list of course names from specific educational institutions is given)


 


To meet the requirements of the GST/BAS course you need to have completed:


BAS agent registration skill set, which consists of the following units:
FNSBKG404A Carry out business activity and instalment activity statement tasks, and
FNSBKG405A Establish and maintain a payroll system


OR


the equivalent of the BAS agent registration skill set.



The following units have been approved as meeting part of the requirements of the GST/BAS course.


 


The tax practitioners board also has specified what level of indemnity cover must be demonstrated and maintained


Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Actually, I saw in some discussions on financial planning sites here that the bigger firms were thinking of hiring their own graduate accountants (probably because retaining a full member accountant would cost more and they would be independent non-employees). I will go through what you recommended above for me to read

 

Here are excerpts from a newish regulatory body associated with the tax office here. The excerpts are about licensing for business activity statements and licensing for tax agent activity. They confuse people by calling it registration. It is currently $500 to apply for a full license in one, double for both, half price if no advice is given. Application fees don't guarantee acceptance, I assume. It mentions a new Act I'm not yet familiar with but some legislation are viewable on the austlii dot gov dot au site, I think

 

http://www.tpb.gov.au/TPB/Register/0319_Tax_agent_services.aspx
Tax agent services are services relating to:

ascertaining (that is, working out) or advising about liabilities, obligations or entitlements of entities (that is your clients) under a taxation law, or representing entities in their dealings with the Commissioner of Taxation (Commissioner) in relation to a taxation law.


...where it is reasonable to expect the entity will rely on the service to satisfy liabilities or obligations, or to claim entitlements under a taxation law. There is a legal requirement that you must not charge or receive a fee or other reward if you provide a service which you know or should reasonably know is a tax agent service and you are not a registered tax agent. A similar requirement applies to lawyers preparing or lodging tax returns, they too must register. These registration requirements are not part of the definition of tax agent services, but are set out in section 50-5 of the Tax Agent Services Act 2009 (TASA). For the definition of a tax agent service, refer to section 90-5 of the TASA.

To meet the requirements of the GST/BAS course you need to have completed:

BAS agent registration skill set, which consists of the following units:
FNSBKG404A Carry out business activity and instalment activity statement tasks, and FNSBKG405A Establish and maintain a payroll system OR

the equivalent of the BAS agent registration skill set.


The following units have been approved as meeting part of the requirements of the GST/BAS course. (Then a substantial list of course names from specific educational institutions is given)

 

To meet the requirements of the GST/BAS course you need to have completed:

BAS agent registration skill set, which consists of the following units:
FNSBKG404A Carry out business activity and instalment activity statement tasks, and FNSBKG405A Establish and maintain a payroll system OR the equivalent of the BAS agent registration skill set.

 

The tax practitioners board also has specified what level of indemnity cover must be demonstrated and maintained

 

Sorry, I double posted when cleaning up the code & spaces

The above doesn't include the more demanding & expensive ASIC stipulations regarding tax planning & advice plus all investment advice

 

I could do like most and pay the time & costs, put clients last but charge them big and just don't think anything through

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

Yes, you're now getting deeply (probably more deeply than many who actually work in those areas on the front line and have a compliance person who handles all the filings) into it - more familiar - than i could ever hope to be (in terms of the specifics).

But as you can see, things may not be as rigid as you first thought - especially in light of the fact that can work as an employee of the various firms whose principals hold the licensing.

Looks to me like you're getting your arms around it.

Lane
Lane, JD, CFP, MBA, CRPS
Category: Finance
Satisfied Customers: 4186
Experience: Providing Financial, Tax & Business advice since 1986
Lane and other Finance Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

You've persuaded me to include some or as much FP as possible into the accounting education and career planning. Combined it will give flexible choices for business.


 


In your experience have you come across any questions that I could develop into a research? Because I won't have a specialist FP degree, but may work under the larger licensing umbrella of a principal planner, can you think of anything about the clients or the work in relation to tax or accounting? I would need to blend the two in order for a university to accept a dual research degree. That master of philosophy would then include an FP name in it. I originally only had the idea of improving questionnaires to accurately measure risk attitudes or profiles. That is only all FP. Or maybe you've wondered about a finance and accounting question?

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

As you night remember, one of the things that really intrigued me about management accounting vs gaap/public co financial statement accounting ... was the way we changed statements to take out so much if the assigning across the board costs to areas that really didn;t contribute to that cost, such as direct labor being apportioned, by default, to a corporate office somewhere - (not specifically) - but the labor costs at one plant, say, that produced only one product being averaged across all departments.

What this does is remove the ability really to see which products/processes are the most profitable.

Although I think quite a large bit of work has gone into investor risk analyses (I know at AMEX we has some fairly sophisticated models, questionnaires, weighting schemes, etc - I think probably driven by that being where so much of a broker/dealer's risk lies - in putting investors into unsuitable investment products), ...


... I'll bet no one has applied that much work (as in the management accounting vs GAAP accounting) toward modification of PERSONAL financial statements, to identify strengths/areas for improvement in individuals.

Even further ... are there ways to help point out the the individual that their propensity (for taking on too much debt, for example) can be turned around in some manner.

(That one's very much off the cuff)

What really comes to mind as I become even more tangential here, is how the theories of behavior modification, and delivering messages, organizational communications and culture can be applied to the individual Financial PLanning CLient.

I'll try to think of more, but that maybe gets something to you quickly.

Have you ever looked at the Hersey/Blanchard "Situational Leadership" model?

Used it in management all the time, but could be very powerful for isolating ability vs motivation (and their components) in working with FP clients.

http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_44.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=situational+leadership&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hw25Ua-XNons8gSZ4oHIDQ&ved=0CEoQsAQ&biw=1320&bih=648

http://situational.com/about-us/situational-leadership/

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Wow that was a fast response. I'll give you a huge rating for that plus the detail: but I'm going to have to think about those ides and read those sites and get back to you


 


Great that you mentioned behavioural ~ that's sparked a new idea in me: I could also do a combined financial planning and psychology research. Then it might just be a bit easier to get into a PhD program. A forensic expert only needs the title "dr" ~ and it doesn't have to be specifically in the area as long as it is related ~ don't they?


 


Given your studies for law exams, please take your time to think of anything that made you curious or puzzled you or maybe you had an idea on

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.



Thank you so much!

Will do.

I think that the combination AND synergy between behavior and Personal finance IS the cutting edge and will be for some time.

Combine that with the law (especially in the areas of estate, tax,and securities) and you can CERTAINLY help a lot of people.

I realize that the three areas might not fit the parameters of the program design, but it is those three that come to play the most and the dynamics are many.

Thank you again!

Lane

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

By forensics I mean in accounting. The traditional practice of it was examining ledgers (books) in detail and doing some calculations to see if they have been 'cooked' (Al Capone's bookkeeper first helped the FBI with what is known as the earliest form of forensics). The new version only includes i.T in tracing money movements across borders. But neither alone are enough to me; there's got to be a new method to find fraud or theft. Do you have any views here?


Anyway, it would demand analysis and is not subjectable to regulation. Licensing a competitive industry where the fees are comparable doesn't work to protect the industry or clients, who always could sue without it. Barriers to entry only work for monopolies and oligopolies in my opinion.


 


Yes, I agree that the behavioural (we spell it the French-English way with a 'u') or psychology aspects combined with finance, financial planning, or economics are the new wave in academia. I found out when I was studying for the grad cert in commerce. (I'm still unsure how to fit hospital admin or aged care facilities in, regarding the population wave you mentioned. I might be wrong but I thought they, especially retirement and nursing homes would not want any new management styles or creative thinking. Any comment?)


 


Yes, I did remember what you said about changing an income statement to show contributional costs to profit in the last question. I did appreciate it and found it remarkable that you were interested in it. In that long question-conversation, we didn't have time for me to remark on it. I just want to clarify that, when I sat in on management accounting, I learnt about cost allocation. That's what it is called. Direct labour, e.g the factory workers' wages you mentioned, count in the cost of goods sold for the products sold because they produced it. The cost of renting that factory also would be included as relevant and direct. I've not heard of anyone allocating factory or direct costs to headquarters or silly other examples you gave. That would be wrong accounting; deception at worst!!


 


I still have to visit those sites. Thanks for the good ideas that can b investigated. Yep, I think what you said about looking at risk from the adviser's point of view could be a problem. Maybe clients' risk levels have already had too much research, that resulted in no insight?

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

By forensics I mean in accounting. The traditional practice of it was examining ledgers (books) in detail and doing some calculations to see if they have been 'cooked' (Al Capone's bookkeeper first helped the FBI with what is known as the earliest form of forensics). The new version only includes i.T in tracing money movements across borders. But neither alone are enough to me; there's got to be a new method to find fraud or theft. Do you have any views here?

 

Just that with the terrorism, drug running, gun running, etc etc we've seen over the last 10, even 20, years, have to wonder if some of the growth might be subsiding ...more efficient processes, less job growth? Not sure. I now that all the banks now report pretty much EVERYTHINg to treasury dept. here. Amounts of gifts coming in to the country over 100,000 have to be declare on an IRS form (sent to treasury) purchases and investments over 10,000 have to be report on special forms.

 

That stuff''s been there for a while. Seems that there's been a combination of discontent (with banks shutting down peroples access just because some computer algorythm says something fraudelent coule be happending, I still remember my advisers complaining 10 yrs ago now when they had to do exra reporting on anything over 10,000) to downnright resignation (as in we have to give up our privace to be safe) ... just not sure it's new (in terms of a career path, any more).


Anyway, it would demand analysis and is not subjectable to regulation. Licensing a competitive industry where the fees are comparable doesn't work to protect the industry or clients, who always could sue without it. Barriers to entry only work for monopolies and oligopolies in my opinion.

 

Agree. It's certainly worked to grow the bureaucracy that's soppused to be protecting the citizens ... but what I see is growth of government workers' protecting their jobs.


 


Yes, I agree that the behavioural (we spell it the French-English way with a 'u') or psychology aspects combined with finance, financial planning, or economics are the new wave in academia. I found out when I was studying for the grad cert in commerce. (I'm still unsure how to fit hospital admin or aged care facilities in, regarding the population wave you mentioned. I might be wrong but I thought they, especially retirement and nursing homes would not want any new management styles or creative thinking. Any comment?)

 

Not sure of the demographis there (other than wat we saw in the charts predicting growth) BUt here the baby boomers (thaty wave of population that came after WWII here in the US) are now hitting their retirement years ... and anythime we see that kind of growth, we see resources going in the same direction... COULD mean there's opportunity for leadership and change. Maybe we're back to looking for that 2% of the companies that want to find win/wins.


 


Yes, I did remember what you said about changing an income statement to show contributional costs to profit in the last question. I did appreciate it and found it remarkable that you were interested in it. In that long question-conversation, we didn't have time for me to remark on it. I just want to clarify that, when I sat in on management accounting, I learnt about cost allocation. That's what it is called. Direct labour, e.g the factory workers' wages you mentioned, count in the cost of goods sold for the products sold because they produced it. The cost of renting that factory also would be included as relevant and direct. I've not heard of anyone allocating factory or direct costs to headquarters or silly other examples you gave. That would be wrong accounting; deception at worst!!

 

In GAAP accounting, by the time the numbers are rolled up into the kind of things that investors use to make decisions, they're only seeing profit, cost, etc. of the company. The all revered P/E (price of the stock as compared to the earnings of the company, for example) DOES tell us SOMETHING.. but it doesn't tell management which processes and products the profits are coming from.


The traditional GAAPVincome statement format uses absorption or full costing, in which variable and fixed manufacturing costs are part of the inventory costs and, thus, part of the cost of goods sold calculation. The contribution margin format uses variable costing, in which fixed manufacturing costs are part of the overhead costs of the accounting period and are not part of the product costs. The reasoning behind this approach is that because companies incur these fixed costs regardless of the sales volume, they should not be a part of product costs.


The contribution margin format also starts with revenue as the top line. But instead of showing cost of goods and operating expenses, a contribution margin statement breaks out the variable and fixed expenses separately. Variable expenses include variable production costs, such as raw materials and direct labor, and variable marketing and administrative expenses, such as commission expenses and the salaries of supervisors. The contribution margin is the difference between revenues and variable expenses.

 


I still have to visit those sites. Thanks for the good ideas that can b investigated. Yep, I think what you said about looking at risk from the adviser's point of view could be a problem. Maybe clients' risk levels have already had too much research, that resulted in no insight?

 

Here, whole companies have been built (and with the shrinking -much neede shrinking, in my opinion - of the investment industry) and have now goine out of business. in that one area .. and es, I'm note sure we're learned much yet ... so very unquantifyable ... that's why I think th psych piece adds more value, insight.

 

 

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

No I have never heard of situational leadership before. I read those sites you recommended; mindtools is a good site and explained it the best. It talks about other types of models already investigated in psyc. I've been the victim of S1 management when it should have been S3 or 4. Anyway, with so many blind employers and or HR people, they'd be better off turning to numerology for the best guide, all laid out with no thinking needed, on who actually has leadership skills based on their birthdates and names. The situational model can be useful but doesn't acknowledge situations when people have some skills but are unwilling or vice versa.

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

I would respectfully disagree.

Situational leadership does EXACTLY that (isolates motivation and ability)and then further breaks down each into components.

If all of the components of ability are there but something's missing on the motivation side (say, not seeing an incentive, or being insecure in the task) then the manager knows that it's a supportive role that should be played, rather than trying to coach, as if the follower doesn't know how to do the task.

The other side of that coin is when there's something missing on the ability side and the manager tries to rah-rah the person into getting it done, rather than isolating the part of the skill that needs work and then seizing that opportunity to teach (first by demonstrating).

This is the most powerful tool I've ever seen for leading people ... not only with respect to figuring out whether it's an ability or motivation issue, but also in breaking down those two things into their components, so as to apply the right kind of leadership.

Probably the biggest mistake I see my management consulting clients make with their employees is moving to R4 (delegate, or "Go get 'em" as we say here) much too quickly.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

You seem to have an understanding of it that is different to how it is poorly explained on the Hershey site. Maybe you can tell me more since I didn't like what I read in only half an hour. Mindtools recommended the 'transformational' model as the best available so far.

Usually I see one person, sometimes two, vying for the leadership role, wanting to be dictatorial, while two or three others remaining quiet or complacent. Those are people who often dismiss my natural ability, not even bothering to ask me why I think I could lead the group better, eg my gpa, my work experience, my other degree, my vision for the group. (Actually, according to you, the ICAA quiz, the Mindtools quiz, and several numerology sites, I'm truly a leader and achiever). Ultimately what happens in these groups are that only two people end up doing the work while the rest laze off or surf the net. There are no real world incentives, punishment nor reward, and they don't care about their grades except to pass. The tasks set by the lecturer aren't too beyond any skill or knowledge they've recently learnt but they clearly feel at a loss in how to apply it. Meanwhile the wanna be leader who probably isn't a real leader tries to undermine cooperation or my efforts to delegate tasks based on ability and interest. My natural tendency in those situations were to 'tell' or 'sell' what the lecturer is probably looking for; however, students tend to judge I'm the dictator while the real dictator in the group gossips to try to separate into a different group. Odd, but perhaps I was too diplomatic and not assertive enough to insist on why I was aiming for better than a passing grade. The rest of the group often find it too demanding on their time or thoughts to put in more effort. Now, what I've described is something you might be familiar with in your studies; it is different to an employment situation. What can you instruct me on group work for school assignments whenever I'm the leader?

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

Iv'e used situational leadership for years and found it to be VERY effective.

Especially if you communicate it to your followers (I've had them come into my office, knowing that we were going to have to deal with a deficiency of some sort, they tell me what's needed before I get there)

It can really be quite amazing.



In the situation you describe, the folks that just don't want to do it are at LEAST R3 (able but not willing), and possibly R1 (neither willing nor able)

If you can ascertain that they ARE R3 then you have to go further and see which of the 4 components is missing (WISC - Willingness, Incentive, Security or Confidence) ad work on that component ... may by interjecting some IINCENTIVE into their situation
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

What do you mean by security? As for confidence and willingness, do you think talking to each individually in private would help them to reveal more information? Maybe afterward it would just be babying them openly in group meetings with encouragement? As for incentive, I'm loathe to buy them a beer or whatever. Would reminding them of the benefits of doing a good job and telling them the link between a better gpa and better job ops do it? (I still don't see how situational leadership could be applied to non-employment team work)

Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.


OK the model is really quite extensive .... let me define the components of Motivation (mnemonic is WISC) and ability (mnemonic is TRUE)

WISC stands for Willingness, Incentive, Security and Confidence

TRUE stands for Training, Role Perception, Understanding and Experience.

Now let me come back ad break it out a little more, then after that try to apply it so this Non-work (non-employee situation)

Just a sec ...
Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

Another important point here is that this method should be applied to TASKS, not the whole person .... so the first thing is to break down objective, jobs, projects, etc. into TASKS.

Then relative to a task ... lets start with Ability (TRUE)

Training:

Has the person actually had the training to do this task .. should they be able to do it.


Role Perception:

Do they see this tax as part of their job/responsibility


Understanding:

Can they articulate the steps and objectives ("end in mind," to relate back to Covey)


Experience:

Have they actually had an experience in DOING this task...( and an important qualification of this one is HAS that experience been RECENT and SUCCESSFUL? IF not, this part might not really be valid



NEXT Willingness (WISK)
Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.

SORRY MEANT MOTIVATION (not willingness, which is one of the COMPONENTS of motivation)


Willingness:

Is the person actually willing to do it? (the task) Remember their NOT doing it isn't enough, it could be that they are....afraid to attack it (we'll talk about that one in Security)


Incentive:

Do they see a reason/reward for doing this (SO MANY times when you have an R3 - especially in the case where you have a real superstar that off their game - they're already making so much money that the money is no longer an incentive... and the proper SUPPORTIVE leadership there is to create a new incentive ... maybe, help the person get excited about a promotion or play to their charitable inclinations to hep others.



Security:

Are they actually SECURE in doing this task ( a great test for this one is... do the have a realistic perception of a negative outcome .. said in English: do they know that if they fail it'll be ok.



Confidence:

just what it sounds like... Do you hear them say things like "get out of my way, let me at it, SURE I can do this, and does their demeanor and behavior indicate that they are really there.




THe hardest part of using this, is to break it down and work on one piece at a time (or at least as separate issues) ... and again only applying it to one PART of the job/function/ assignment.



Next, I'll try (not knowing a lot about the individuals, show how it can be applied to a non-work/employee situation




Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.


Regarding work groups, I WILL tell you first, that I when a student (say in my MBA work) I went very quickly to doing the work myself, or doing it and giving to the other group member as a place to start.

One of the differences there is that you have no OBVIOUS (other than generally charitable) reason to want to DEVELOP the people ... it's more about getting good work done, so the model might not be AS applicable .. however.

If you can take the time to break down what they're supposed to be doing in your mind to the individual tasks .. and the assess whether it's a motivational or ability issues ... (the short-term and obvious is that it's ALL motivation, but sometimes that'll surprise you, where the long-term not so obvious is that the person really didn't exactly know where to start -hence you need to be thinking on the ability side - S2, coaching, possibly) ... then you may be better able to develop a strategy for getting that person (or helping that person depending on the assessment) to do their part.



Another application to YOUR situation piece? ... You probably cant S1 them ... in a job situation it's much easier to go there (DIRECTING, S1 style - tell show do).


I once had a boss that said when HE was in school, that when he could tell that the person on his team was simply laced the principals to WANT to do their part, that that was R# in disguise ... that they just didn't see the incentive.

The would go about finding ways, everything from getting the message to the prof that this person was INTENTIONALLY pushing off work to others ( negative incentive?) to finding other incentive by use Covey's "seek first to understand," ... figuring out what was important to that person and finding ways to play to that (maybe it was attention, maybe it was being left alone, maybe it was helping him talk t that young lady he was too shy to speak to)


The point here, I think, is that if you apply the model to really break down the pieces of motivation and ability... you really have a way to at least START going at it.


One last point ... the way the model is taught? if ONE sub-component is missing? then you DON'T have that piece ... that is to say: If the person isn't SECURE in the task, you don't have motivation ... hence if ALL of ability IS there, then it's that supportive leadership that's needed (maybe lots of demonstration).

If you don't have one piece of motivation, you don't have motivation



That's a very superficial overview




Expert:  Lane replied 1 year ago.


One last add-on.

YOu know, as we think about how very different things are needed for different people...

.. or in terms of situational leadership, different things are needed for different parts of different people's behavior

We're right back to Warren Bennis' "Leadership is like herding cats," ... (can't be done, they're all different)

and Covey's seven habits (seeking first to understand before taking action, beginning with an end in mind, looking for synergy among people...


The dots do really all connect.

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