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Kevin, Auto Mechanic
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 1360
Experience:  Diagnostic technician
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Have a 2008 Caliber 2.0L with a P2004 Code Actual Runner

Customer Question

Have a 2008 Caliber 2.0L with a P2004 Code
Actual Runner Valves are not "stuck" as they rotate freely.
Have replaces Actuator and have verified all wiring in harness.
Still get P2004 Code but very intermittent.
Can drive many miles (10 to 30?) before see Code reappear.
Does the PCM need to be reflashed since I replaced the Actuator?
Thanks for your consideration.
Submitted: 5 months ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  CHRIS ZAPANTIS replied 5 months ago.
Hello Im chris and I will assist you. What we do is replace the complete manifold comes as an assembly. Then we reflash as per dodge bulletin.
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I would understand replacing the entire Intake manifold IF the Runner Valve common shaft was stuck or hard to rotate. Mine turns very freely. Replacing is over $1000 so you know I am not motivated to do that. I have replaced the Actuator that is a part of the assembly you spoke of.Is the reflashing required because I replaced the Actuator?Why would that be the case if true?Bernie
Expert:  CHRIS ZAPANTIS replied 5 months ago.
Its not required but a while ago dodge had a bulletin about it so thats what I do.
Expert:  CHRIS ZAPANTIS replied 5 months ago.
it will function perfectly without reflash, I think the reflash for that just changes the parameters of when to set that code. Its not for function.
Expert:  CHRIS ZAPANTIS replied 5 months ago.
Now can a reflash get rid of your light. Its quite possible. But you may also have another problem.
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Possibly you have not had a specific experience with this issue (nor have I) I am not looking for a recommendation that I could have gotten from a Dodge Dealer. Those Technicians are just reading Bulletins as well.I am looking for a firm answer to solve my problem. This $1000 ++ bill is looming over my head and I need more insight as to the solution.Quite possibly I am asking for the impossible answer. I have never used this type of forum before and didn't know what to expect. Like a Doctor that never saw the patient!So with my thanks I will have to pass on the answers given.RegardsBernie
Expert:  Kevin replied 5 months ago.
Hi im kevin i will try to assist if possible the reason this issue arrises is because a small amount of wear in the actual runner allows excess movement and this is why the whole manifold has to be replaced .this movent can be as little as .5 mm past either stop and the car will pick up on it .all the software update does it try to prevent this occurring on the new manifold the only permanent cure is to replace manifold .i hope this helps please remember to rate my service
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Thanks for responding:Just so I understand:When you say "software update" are you referring to Flashing the memory in the PCM Computer or something else?
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Please explain exactly where this "small amount of wear in the actual runner" is located.
Expert:  Kevin replied 5 months ago.
as you turn the runner it goes from bone stop to another stop you only need a small amount of wear and it will move slightly further than the stop .and yes i was reffering to flashing
Expert:  Kevin replied 5 months ago.
please remember to rate my service and let me know if you need anything else at all
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I am sorry but I am questioning the logic of your answer. Please let me explain:You mentioned "as little as .5 mm past either stop and the car will pick up". So .5 mm is less than the thickness of two business cards which IS very little, I agree. This small amount is certainly within the range of the Flashing parameters so why not just reflash the PCM with the new "bone stops" as they are now? Keep in mind the runner shaft is not binding whatsoever as it turns very freely.As you know the Position Feedback Sensor inside the Intake Manifold Flow Control Valve is what gives the PCM it's current position. (I took my old one apart and see the resistive element that supplies a variable voltage to the PCM)So if you say: "the only permanent cure is to replace manifold". That would not be a proper answer, in my opinion. I CAN understand why replacing the entire manifold assembly would be a popular answer, however. Replacing it makes the Dealer money! I don't know how much reflashing costs but it WILL be less than $1000 ++.We have had a good discussion but I cannot agree with your conclusion at this time.RegardsBernie
Expert:  Kevin replied 5 months ago.
I totally agree with what your saying the issue you have is the dealer software as far as im aware doesnt widen these parameters so just sofware wont cure .the difficulty you will have is getting software that includes the widening of these parameters .youwould alwost be better off speaking to somebody in your area that deals with tuning that could compleatly remove the intake runner from the programming
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
To all:Over the weekend I decide to take matters into my own hands and resolve this issue once and for all!The P2004 Code has gotten more frequent as I have not even been able to drive across the street before the OBD fault
popped-up on my Laptop.As you know the Intake Manifold Runner Control Motor (Torque Motor - Dorman 911-902) has two functions. The first is to
turn the Runner Flaps and the second is to provide a rotational position to the PCM. If the PCM does not agree with the
current position a Code is given. Inside of the Motor is a resistive element that connects directly to pins 4, 5 and 6
that, through the wiring harness, make their way to the PCM Computer.Here is what I did:With the Motor completely disconnected from the electrical plug I installed a 5K ohm Potentiometer to pins 4, 5 and 6.
After a brief trial and error of 5 minutes or so of turning the Potentiometer and to my amazement, "fooled" the PCM into
thinking all is well! I now have NO Codes present under any driving condition. The car has been driven many miles with the
remaining Monitors slowly turning green as expected.What is interesting is:If I turn the Potentiometer CCW I get a P2016 Code (Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit LOW)
If I turn the Potentiometer CW I get a P2017 Code (Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit HIGH)
If I turn the Potentiometer to the correct position (trial and error) I get NO Code whatsoever!So my long term fix will be to reattach the Intake Manifold Runner Control Motor but will leave the short connecting-rod
that actually connects the Motor to the Runner Shaft, out of the manifold. The reason is the strong return spring inside
the Motor keeps the Runners OPEN (not swirling). Since I am not using the Motor for anything other than to plug a hole, I
will manually and permanently position the Runners in the CLOSED position (swirling) to maintain the original benefits of the
design.CONCLUSION:I will now pass the Smog Test while getting good gas mileage and low emissions.No need to replace the Intake Manifold!
No need to replace to Intake Manifold Runner Control Motor!
No need to get the Computer reflashed!
No need to spend $1000 ++ dollars!This cost me $3.49 - My time is free.RegardsBernie