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Dodgerench
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3396
Experience:  30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
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Dodge Caliber SXT: I have a 2007 Dodge Caliber 1.8 manual transmission

Customer Question

I have a 2007 Dodge Caliber 1.8 manual transmission. It has been giving me a P0335 error code, which I know is the crankshaft sensor I have changed the crank sensor three times ( two after-marked OBD and one original Mopar one. I have an OBD checker ( not a full scanner ) I hit the closed loop my rpm drops to 0 for a split second then it jumps back up in limp mode ... here's the thing that's strange, if I run the car so and it gets good and hot ( run for another 10 minutes after I hit limp mode ). I stop and pull over, clear the codes, and restart the engine, I get no codes what so ever, nothing, nada. I can drive for 160 kilometers ( 100 miles ) and no problems. I can stop and put gas in restart the car and got for antother 160 kms ans still no problem. As Long as I don't let the car get cold
To date I chave changed ( In order ) Crank shaft sensor (jobber) , both cam shaft sensors ( Mopar ) , crank shaft sensor ( Mopar ), PCM ( used but reprogrammed to my car ), crank shaft sensor, both O2 sensors ( Bosch, I thought that it might have been the O2 sensors cumming on line that might have overloaded the PCM )
I have bought the factory service Manuel online. Right now I'm tracing my entire CPS sensor harness and I traced my three wires from my CPS going to as fat as I can tell connector C100. However in the service manual connector C100 is a 6 wire connector and I have a 8 wire connector, and the colors are not matching up .. so I am a bit confused ... HELP!!!
Some time I do get other codes P0300 ( very common ) , P0301( intermittent ) , P0315 ( 50% ) , but always the P0335 code. Since changing the O2 sensors it's mostly the P0335 that pops up
Submitted: 10 months ago.
Category: Dodge
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I have tested the power to the sensor and getting a strong solid 4.95V DC, the signal wire I'm also getting a strong 4.95Vdc signal, the ground is good and I have good conductivity, I have checked the resistance from PCM connector C2 and CPS connector all within allowable resistance limits ( .8-1.5 oms, limit is 5 according to the service manual ) . between CPS and connector C100, wiring has been inspected and without chafing or signs of wear, abrasions and has good connectivity.
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
Hi, welcome to JustAnswer!. This is Ed. I'd try a new crank sensor connector. We had issues with the 08 Avenger 2.4 engine (same-same) with setting this same set of codes and the reason was that the factory had oversized some connector pins to the CKP sensor. While your Caliber doesn't apply to the TSB exactly, an intermittent connection on the CKP circuit could certainly be the root cause, which also is same-same. Your CKP terminals are properly machined, but a bad connection is really what they're trying to fix with the package and that can happen in any model. The TSB number is ***** if you have access to the publication, but he gist is that you use connector package 05183453AB to solder in new crank sensor terminal pigtails and a connector mold is furnished, along with shrink tube. I've used this tip many times on other World Engines like yours for intermittent P0335/ P315/ P0300 codes over several model years and had excellent results. You've covered the bases very well and it's my opinion that the least obvious fix will be the final one. Expect the kit to cost around $40. Ed
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Hi Ed,
I had thought about the connector, but I always hesitate to cut into the wiring harness when the connector is giving me good clean readings and is free of corrosion or verdigris. I see your point with the TSB, same engine family and I have read on a couple os websites that the connectors can be finicky. I 'll order one today, and give it shot, hopefully that it'll be in stock. I'll give you an update as soon as I get it installed and tested.Derek
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Should I use the gold connectors ( as prescribed in the TSB ) or the silver ones that come in the kit ? Right now I have silver ones
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
Use the gold ones, Derek.
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Good evening Ed,Got the connector from the dealer today , installed it, cleared the codes, took it for a drive, and I'm still getting the P0335, P0315 P0300 errors. I haven't had the chance to test voltage, ground, connectivity as of yet. I'm going to try and throw the CKP from Mopar ( right now I have the second Jobber ), and check voltage etc. Do you have any other ideas of things that come to mind that I could check while I'm there?
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I've already checked the TIPM unit for corrosion, signs of water damage, dirty connectors etc .. but everything seemed clean, dry, and corrosion free
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
Yep, by all means use the Mopar sensor.Let me know if it makes any difference.Ed
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Hi EdWell put the Mopar sensor back in ... no change same-same, checked current, connectivity , voltage etc .. all within parameters .. does the same thing whenever it hit's the closed loop it dies out for a second .. comes back in limp mode and if I let it get a little hotter and clear the codes and restart it in closed loop ...no problems .. any ideas what to check next ??
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
Try this for me, Derek. I don't know where it'll lead -- it's mostly just for information-sake. Unplug each of the cam sensors one at a time and start the engine when cold. Drive it through the warmup cycle to a point where either the problem of limp-in happens or doesn't, then cool the engine and try the other sensor. I've seen problems lately that code for a particular sensor failure, but the signal and circuit are actually fine; it's the timing of the sensor that's causing the confusion. In the case of our 3.6 Liter 6-cylinder engines, we have two cam sensors per bank for a total of four, but just one crank sensor. The PCM has lots of help with the 3.6 engine with all those sensors, giving it the opportunity to compare several cam signals against the constant signal of crank. If one cam signal acts up -- either a poor signal or doesn't come at the right time -- the PCM knows who to blame. In the case of your engine, you have but two cam sensors, so if one isn't found to be in the right place at the right time, it could blame either the other cam sensor OR the crank signal for the discrepancy. You really need more of any one signal to be able to vote the offender off the island, so there might be a mistake being made. The engine will start and run pretty well as I remember with one cam signal, albeit with the MIL on all the time. RPMs might be limited, but my concern is whether something changes when you do this with both camshaft sensors. I'd expect it to run just as well (or crappy) with either unplugged; any operating difference between tests might tell us something. Your mention of closed-loop mode is a good one. I don't think it's actually closed-loop mode that you're seeing, but rather a particular engine temperature that seems to set the condition off. You actually re-enter open-loop mode each time you shut the engine off (even hot) and closed loop can occur at engine block temps as low as 20 deg. F, so if the problem happens higher than that, I'd expect it to be something else involved. It could even be a cam phaser or one of the oil control valves causing the problem. We'll see. Speaking of oil. 5w20 engine oil is specified for this unit. Be sure that's what you're using and if it's anything else, by all means switch to the right stuff. Engine operating depends heavily on being able to predict oil viscosity characteristics over the entire engine operating range as it varies cam timing. Talk in a bit,Ed
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
update Cleared all codes disconnected bank 1, started car , got mil as expected P0340 code camshaft bank a sensor 1 only , ran the car up to normal temperature ( car ran normally , no limit in rpm ), hit limp mode, got codes P0315 P0335, P0300, P340.I have cleared the codes again and disconnected bank a sensor 2, I'm letting the engine to cool down and going out to try it with the second senor disconnectedIn so far as oil, yes it was 5W20 that was put in the car, and I have changed the oil twice since the start of the problem, both times with no change in the P0335 error
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
One thing that I neglected to mention so far, and don't know if this will help you in helping you with the diagnosis, but when I first hit limp mode, if I pull over, turn the car off, let it sit for a second, then restart it, it'll restart running very rough and missing, fells like it's running on 3 cylinders... if I step on the accelerator it smooths out a little , and if I let it run back down to idle it'll start running rough again. The I turn it off let it sit a second the restart it it runs fine ( but in limp mode ). Do you think it could be a faulty spark plug that hit's a certain temperature then shorts out causing the PCM to shut down for a second ?? ... just an idea
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
or the main relay to trip for a second .. my crankshaft sensor seems to run though the main relay box ( not the TCIM fuse box, but the relay box in the front bumper ) ...
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I think on the next cam shaft sensor test I'll take a trip to the local auto parts and pick up a change of plugs, not really due , I changed them last August ( problems started in December ). The have been checked visually twice, but maybe the fault is only at a certain temperature ... just theorizing here .. but I've seen faulty plugs do some really weird things before
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
Well... if your misfire condition seems like a hard miss on just one cylinder, it might be related to the ignition system and it can be very temperature-finicky. Look for tracking on the upper spark plug insulator where the coil-on-plug boot contacts it and if found, try scraping off the mark with a fingernail. A true flashover track (like a carbon track) will be etched into both the spark plug insulator and coil boot and won't scratch off. If a flashover track is found, you'll need to replace the spark plug and coil (or coil boot if available) at the same time to prevent the old part from infecting the new. I don't believe the cam or crank sensors run through the relay box up front, but you're right about the Main Relay -- that's where it lives. There have been instances of the Main Relay output feed being compromised by water entry at the relay (kind of a bad spot to put it) and you'd find that at any of the coil or injector common feeds. Power sent from the relay should be roughly equal to battery voltage.
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Well did the second cam shaft relay got message P0336 upon startup ( as expected ) .. same-same ran normally until normal operating temperature...Then got errors P0335, P0315, P0300, P0336 ...Changed the plugs , saw nothing abnormal . no flashover track, all four plug looked the same, with no unusual wear or cracking etc ..I'm just wondering if the main relay is cutting out for a split second ( causing my ignition, spark, and fuel to cut out, and my rpms to drop to zero even though the engine is still turning ) for some reason when I hit closed loop, then it looks for a reason why there is no Ignition and it faults the crankshaft circuit. Could it be that I have a relay that is bad, but not bad enough to fail completely, just when it hits closed loop. Once the relay gets good and hot and I stop my car, then restart it the relay clicks on and off when I restart the car and it does not pick up the drop out of the relay as the car is starting and it permits me to run "normal" without any further faults. I know that I'm reaching here. According to the service manual there is a spare relay in the relay box, do you think that it could be the relay not quite working properly and dropping out?
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
I like the way you think. The actions of one thing can sometimes cause seemingly unrelated reactions elsewhere. Usually, an interruption in the Main Relay/ ASD feed to injectors and coils will result in a circuit code for the coil or injector involved, but not for any sort of sensor that uses a 5v reference. In the case of your Caliber, Main Relay output actually feeds the PCM as well as coils/ injectors, so there's a chance the PCM could lose consciousness briefly. I'll describe the Main Relay and its circuit in a little more detail. I can't be sure, but a mention of a "spare" relay in the owner's literature probably refers to an unused slot in the board, not an actual second relay. The relay gets its basic battery feed from Fuse 18 under the hood, which is a 40-amp Max-type unit. This power source feeds both the control and output sides of the relay, relying on the PCM to ground the relay and send power out to... itself and other places. Once closed, the MR feeds three fuses in the same TIPM unit: #23 (15a), #26 (15a) and #32 (30a). Fuse 23 goes to the coils and a noise-reducing capacitor (brown/ grey wire).Fuse 26 feeds the injectors and both oil control solenoids for your cam phasers (brown/ yellow).And 36 offers a double feed to the PCM on the C1 connector at Pins 1 and 3 (brown/ dark green). If you were to tap into any of the fuses fed from the MR, you could tell if power is being interrupted during one of those events. To go farther, you could actually jumper 12v straight to the base of one of those fuses to continuously supply power to see if it would get you through one of those warmup events. You might not be able to turn the engine off with a jumper wire connected as I described, so keep that in mind. Jumpering any of those fuses (23, 26 or 32) will effectively power up all three fuses in the event of a MR feed failure because it'll backfeed through the common splice they share from the MR. It would be a relatively easy test to either eliminate the MR feed from suspicion or point us in that direction for a closer look.
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Ok I did a quick test .. I disconnected the noise reducer ( brown/grey wire next to the second cam shaft sensor) and hooked my multi meter up to it ran a good strong 14.15-14.20 volts ( same as battery voltage ) up until it kicked into limp mode .. when it hit limp mode it dropped to about 13.2 ( like when I turn off the ignition ) volts and then slowly came up to 14.20 volts. Then when I turn off the ignition I still get 13.9 volts and it drops down slowly ( about 10-15 seconds ) till about 13.2 then it drops down to 0 ... not sure it there is a capacitor in the loop that is slowly draining then shutting down or it is just the power draining from the system. tomorrow I'm going to try and jump the relay as described to see if I can get the car past the limp mode. I have a sneaky suspicion the the relay is at fault ( or the ground wire form the PCM that supplies the relay in question )
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
Interesting. The drop in voltage and slow recovery makes me wonder if the PCM did, indeed, do a reset. We don't energize the charging system immediately on engine start, presumably to give the engine a little time to stabilize. That it never dies... but stumbles... and loses voltage... and recovers after a short waiting period would be consistent with a restart and intermittent loss of CKP could certainly generate something like that. It sounds to me like the relay is doing its job by holding battery voltage at the capacitor, but we'll know more once you've jumpered the circuit tomorrow (you can use the cap connector if handier). And just a little more info, just for the heck of it.The 5v power feed to the CKP sensor is shared with the Electronic Throttle Body and the Bank 2 cam sensor. Since you never set an ETC or cam sensor code that you didn't create, I doubt that we have a wiring problem with the 5v circuit, but I just thought I'd mention it.I believe the Bank 2 cam sensor (also called the 1/2 sensor) is the exhaust-side cam, but service information is frustratingly pig-headed about giving up that info without a fight. Instead, they call them front or rear cam sensors and that's infuriating. Look for a pink/ yellow wire at the cam sensors to identify B1 or B2 I guess. It's the pink/ yellow wire that's the 5v circuit spliced and shared with the CKP. The bot***** *****ne is that the pink/ yellow wire should show the same voltage at all times that the PCM is active, which will be extremely close to 5.0 volts.
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I have seen an ETC code once, as it in not a recurring code I discounted it's appearance, I have also had a P2174 airflow restriction- Instantaneous( once ) but never the camshaft sensor. I did notice in the wiring diagram that the crank and camshaft sensor ( exhaust side ) does share the same power( that is why I changes both camshaft sensors with original Mopar ones thinking that it might be defective and shorting out the circuit ) , and I have checked the voltage and it is that same as the crank sensor at 4.95 volts.
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 10 months ago.
We do have more incidence of throttle body problems than normal on these engines, but the 2174 isn't common at all -- it's usually a high airflow P2173 code that sets most often. There's a software flash for your old 2174, but it doesn't seem to be an issue these days.
Customer: replied 9 months ago.
Well I back fed the 12 v current through the capacitor connector .. and same-same still drops out and comes in limp mode.I inspected and cleaned the ground that connects to the actual body G111 connector I believe ( about 15 wires use this as a ground point ) and the battery ground to body as well. They did have a little verdigris but nothing extraordinary they all seem to be connected. I'm going to open up the "arms" that hold the wires in place in the o-ring connector to see if a ground wire has come loose or is excessively corroded causing an improper ground ( paying particular attention to the black /yellow that grounds the PCM, as you said the relay gets it's ground from the PCM) ,I am also going to check the connector going into the relay box to see if there is any corrosion or verdigris, pushed out connector or damaged wiring.Can you think of anything else that I should check while I'm there ?
Customer: replied 9 months ago.
On my way into work this morning I had my heater fan on high and I noticed when it went into limp mode that the heater fan slowed down then sped up slowly ( like the circuit we tested at the cap connector ) , it seems like the whole electrical system drops in voltage.I'm just wondering if the battery itself might be shorting out when it reaches a certain temperature ( heated by the motor in the engine bay ). I have load tested the battery and it checks out ok ... but maybe at a certain temperature it shorts out ?
Customer: replied 9 months ago.
it would make sense then that even back fed 12V directly from the battery , the circuit would drop in voltage and cause the PCM to reboot
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 9 months ago.
Aaargh. Having the blower motor slow down during one of these episodes is consistent with interruption of the run cycle as the PCM reboots from what it sees as a restart. Since crank signal is a critical part of what's perceived to be engine rotation -- and by default, engine running -- I'd still be suspicious of crank signal integrity. Derek. You've been everything I could hope for in a partner in solving this issue, but at some point I have to admit defeat. I'm going to opt out of your question in the hope that someone more familiar with the situation will see the opportunity and chime in. I'm totally out of gas. Sorry. Take care and keep up the good fight because you're one of the best customers I've ever dealt with. Technical savvy is hard to come by. Ed
Customer: replied 9 months ago.
Thanks for all the help Ed, I really do appreciate all the help you have given me. You did give me some things that I didn't think of or thought that they were relatedFor what it's worth I did check the ground wires and they seemed well attached. I also did a test of voltage at the battery itself( with a multi meter ) the OBD connection ( measured by my OBD checker ) , and from the computer ( also with my OBD checker ) and all three of them dropped to 13.2 v when the episode happened. My battery is 3 years old, and Canadian winters do take a toll on batteries here.To put all the chances on my side, I'm going to change the main relay ( even if it seems to be working properly ), the battery ( due anyway, 3 years the average life for a battery in Canada ) , change the manual transmission fluid ( as the crank sensor is on the transmission side of the engine ) it might be contaminated and interfering with the signal somehow at a certain temperature.For unknown reason it seems my ignition is "winking" off and on when I hit closed loop.
Customer: replied 9 months ago.
Well after studying the wiring diagram, the relay has another circuit output ( not the one that we back-fed thought the cap connector ) and if I'm reading my elecrical symols right it's thermistor ( temperature related ) and it connects to the C1 connector pin 58, main relay control. I picked up a relay at lunch .. going to install it tonight .. see if it fixes the problem
Customer: replied 9 months ago.
Well installed the relay and it's not that