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-Brad-
-Brad-, Dodge Dealership Tech
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 4044
Experience:  16 Yrs Chrysler/Dodge Technician. ASE Master Certified(L-1)
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Dodge RAM 1500 4x4: crank, no start problem. 2002 ram 1500

Customer Question

crank, no start problem. 2002 ram 1500 4.7
been working on it a couple days. truck just died at my house luckily. battery good, fuses and relays good. no spark. It started one time while testing things but then died again. I am thinking crank sensor or pcm failure.
after removing battery for hours and trying to start. holding the odometer button and turning the key, panel reads a c-code of aa 01 "PCM messages not received". Does this mean the pcm is shot? Would a code reader give me any more detail than reading the dash?
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Welcome to JustAnswer!!! My name isXXXXX will be helping you with your question today...

I'm a 15 Yr Dodge Dealership technician, and the first thing we need to do is try and get some codes.. Can you do this:

Without starting the engine, cycle the ignition ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON WITHIN 5 seconds. Where the odometer is should now be displayed "p-codes" (ie. P1234) - Can I have these codes?


Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I tried this and nothing happened. Is this different that what I already did? I turned on the key with the odometer reset held down. That is how I got the c- code aa 01

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

The key cycle is how to self retrieve codes, and not the odometer reset... The aa01 code means nothing.. I will need a P code.. Can you try again? If nothing then I will need for you to grab a multimeter so we can test a few circuits..

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I tried again with no display other than the odometer reading.


Would taking the battery off while having it tested for hours have cleared any codes?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Yes disconnecting the battery likely DID erase the codes.. SInce you don't have any spark can you disconnect the camshaft sensor located here and tell me if it starts.. It will have a long crank time, maybe 10 sec but see if it starts.

Under the front of the passenger head... If it doesn't start check for 5v on the Orange wire at camshaft sensor connector..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


20 second start attempt....nothing


5.75v at orange wire

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

Ok since it didn't start that would leave the PCM or crank sensor.. Can you check the 12v and ground to PCM?

CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 K93 18TN/OR (3.7L/4.7L) COIL DRIVER NO. 3
2 Y135 18LG/BK FUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-START)
3 K94 18TN/LG (3.7L/4.7L) COIL DRIVER NO. 4
4 K4 18BK/LB SENSOR GROUND
5 K96 18TN/LB (3.7L/4.7L) COIL DRIVER NO. 6
6 T24 18BR/YL PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SWITCH SENSE (T41)
7 K91 18TN/RD (3.7L/4.7L) COIL DRIVER NO. 1
7 K19 18BK/GY (5.9L) IGNITION COIL NO. 1 DRIVER
8 K24 18GY/BK CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
9 K98 18LB/RD (4.7L) COIL DRIVER NO. 8
10 K39 18GY/RD IDLE AIR CONTROL NO. 3 DRIVER
11 K60 18YL/BK IDLE AIR CONTROL NO. 2 DRIVER
12 S28 18YL/BK (3.7L/4.7L) POWER STEERING PRESSURE SWITCH SIGNAL
13 A41 14YL (3.7L) IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-START)
13 G113 18OR (4.7L/5.9L) PTO SWITCH SENSE
14 K77 18BR/WT (4.7L/5.9L) (MANUAL TRANSFER CASE) TRANSFER CASE POSITION SENSOR INPUT
15 K21 18BK/RD INTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR SIGNAL
16 K2 18TN/BK ENGINE COOLANT TEMPERATURE SENSOR SIGNAL
17 K7 18OR 5 VOLT SUPPLY
18 K44 18TN/YL CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
19 K59 18VT/BK IDLE AIR CONTROL NO. 4 DRIVER
20 K40 18BR/WT IDLE AIR CONTROL NO. 1 DRIVER
21 K95 18TN/DG (3.7L/4.7L) COIL DRIVER NO. 5
22 A14 18RD/WT FUSED B(+)
23 K22 18OR/DB THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
24 K41 18BK/DG OXYGEN SENSOR 1/1 SIGNAL
25 K141 18TN/WT OXYGEN SENSOR 1/2 SIGNAL
26 K241 18LG/RD (CALIFORNIA) OXYGEN SENSOR 2/1 SIGNAL
27 K1 18DG/RD MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSOR SIGNAL
28 - -
29 K341 18TN/WT (CALIFORNIA) OXYGEN SENOR 2/2 SIGNAL
30 - -
31 Z82 14BK/TN GROUND
32 Z81 14BK/TN GROUND

POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE C1 - BLACK 32 WAY


Check pins 22 for 12v and pins 31-32 for ground...

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


yes, those check out

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Ok great!!! Since we don't have a scantool I would suggest either borrowing a scantool to see if you can retrieve some codes or replacing the crankshaft sensor and see if it starts..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


no need to test wires at crankshaft sensor?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

You can test for 5v but other than that you will need a scantool or labscope to check the crankshaft sensor.. That's why I said either see if you can get some codes out of the system or try a crankshaft sensor..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


bought a code reader....it says "no codes"


I am putting in a new crank position sensor

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Thanks for the update....

Let me know what happens,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I may have miss-diagnosed the core problem. I thought it was spark, because I bought an inline spark tester but I am not sure they work correctly on these coil on plug systems. Also, I eliminated fuel as core problem because I had my wife spray starter fluid in the air box and tried to start it.


 


Anyway, I put in the new crank sensor...did not start.


 


Just for giggles (although I am not laughing much), I tried starter fluid while she turned the key. It sputtered, crackled and coughed like it wanted to start...but would not start.


 


I have overhauled many vehicles in the past, but have not so much as changed a spark plug in in the last 15years. Getting very frustrating.

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,


If it make's ya feel betetr... It's my fought for not double checking with you. But I was picking up where you left off the diag and I thought you didn't have spark.. That is my first lines to anyone with a no start.. "Have you checked for fuel or spark".. Hey, it's ok!!!

Now that we know that it did try to start now we can start moving up the fuel chart... Ok so now you will need to either reach up around to the top of the tank and see if the pump has 12v and ground.. And if it does then you will need to drop the tank to replace it.. Here's a little hint.. If it's the pump, beat on the bottom of the tank and see if you hear it come on.. I do it all the time just to get the vehicle in from where the rollback dropped it behind our shop to my rack..


Let me know what you find,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

before I do that, a couple thoughts.


 


1- I checked the fuel bleed valve on the injectors at the engine...It has pressure in it. Shouldn't that mean the pump it working


 


2- I can hear what I thought was the pump under the hood when the key is turned.


 


2- shouldn't it have run, even a little on the starter fluid?


 


perhaps I am thinking the worst, like timing chain/belt slip.

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Do you know for sure if it has spark or not?

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Not if it could make what sounds like an attempted start on compression. It really pinged and danced like it was trying to start. but did not Run. Not even for a couple seconds.


Can I poor gas in the butterfly? I have the breather off.

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Does the engine sound the same as it always has when you try and start it? And starting fluid should get it to start if you spray it into the throttlebody... You might need to remove the big breather in front of the throttlebody..

Let me know,'
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I feel like I am starting over.....crap!


 


When the truck stopped...I tried repeatedly to get it to start...9 times nothing, one time it started and ran but tried to die at idle. I kept it running with some throttle for a half a minute or so. then it dies and has never done that again.


 


while checking fuses, battery, using inline spark tool, and spraying fuel in the carb, I have attempted to start it 50 times with ZERO attempted start noises.


 


Now after changing the crank sensor, it "sputtered". A loud rough pinging sputter, only with the starting fluid spray.


 

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,


If you have sprayed it too much it will flood it.. Can you remove a spark plug and see if it's flooded?

Brad












Customer: replied 1 year ago.


plug is dry.


tank appears to have two wires and a breather coming out of it.


I banged on it with a hammer...did you say I should be able to "hear the pump"....easily?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

If you turn the key on you should be able to hear it whine for 2 sec..

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I can't hear it running, but my hearing is not the best.


 


If I have fuel at the bleed valve on the engine, shouldn't the pump be working?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

Do you have alot of psi at fuel rail? Can you stick the spark in the end of the coil and lay the spark plug on the head or anything metal and try and start it.. Tell me if you have spark..

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I hit the bleed at the fuel rail yesterday and it had pressure. I hit the bleed earlier today, and it had pressure. I hit it just now and it has nothing. And I no longer hear noise under the hood like I used to hear when I turned the key.


There is NO spark at the plug.


 


I hope your Monday is going better than mine!

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

So now we have no spark and no fuel.. Is the battery still fully charged? Can you remove the ASD relay and tell me if the Pins 30 and 85 has 12v from the fuse 2. Now see if pin 86 has ground from the PCM..


Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


relay #57, engine control relay/asd ?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrrin,

Here is a pic:


Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


30 and 85 are hot


86 to battery does not register anything do I need to measure to the pcm?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,,

Yes if you can check that wire to PCM to verify the wire is good will be great. Also remove the TIPM and disconnect the connectors to see if any are corroded..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

too dark to continue, will have to pick it up here tomorrow

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

Ok I will be at work at the Dodge dealership, so I will reply back tomm asap when you reply..

Have a great night,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

OK home from work and ready to go at it some more.


you want me to take all the connections off of the fuse box and check them.


 


before I do that lets check the wire to the pcm while it is still connected. what plug and pin is it on in the pcm?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

I just got home as well...

Ok now to check teh ASD control wire, you will need to locate the Gray connector at the PCM and tremove it and locate pin 12 Dark Green/Orange.. the plug it back in and see if it is sending out 12v...

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I have gotten lost here.


currently I have the tipm and the battery disconnected. I thought I was looking for a wire to test from the tipm to the pcm for ground?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

Well let;'s check both:


CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 - -
2 Y133 14RD/OR FUSED B(+)
3 - -
4 A142 16DG/OR AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY OUTPUT
5 - -
6 - -
7 - -
8 - -
9 - -
10 - -
11 - -
12 A31 14BK/WT FUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-ACC)
13 - -
14 T16 14RD (EARLY BUILD) TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT
14 T16 16RD (LATE BUILD) TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT
15 - -

INTEGRATED POWER MODULE C6 - 15 WAY


See if the Dark green/Orange has 12v when key on..


CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 T40 14BR STARTER MOTOR RELAY OUTPUT
2 V3 16BR/WT WIPER RELAY LOW SPEED OUTPUT
3 Y105 20BR/RD FUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-ACC)
4 F235 18RD FUSED B(+)
5 - -
6 Y171 18WT/DG LEFT LOW BEAM DRIVER
7 Y168 18WT/LB RIGHT HIGH BEAM DRIVER
8 - -
9 - (EARLY BUILD) -
9 A64 16DG/WT (LATE BUILD) FUEL PUMP RELAY OUTPUT
10 - -
11 K51 18DB/YL AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY CONTROL
12 K127 18DB/OR (CALIFORNIA) OXYGEN SENSOR DOWNSTREAM RELAY CONTROL
13 - -
14 - -
15 Y170 18WT/LG LEFT HIGH BEAM DRIVER
16 Y153 18DB/RD ADJUSTABLE PEDAL RELAY OUTPUT
17 - -
18 - -
19 - (EARLY BUILD) -
19 K31 18BR (LATE BUILD) FUEL PUMP RELAY CONTROL
20 L39 18LB (FOG LAMPS) FOG LAMP RELAY OUTPUT
21 A41 16YL FUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-START)
22 Y169 18WT/TN RIGHT LOW BEAM DRIVER
23 T24 18BR/YL PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SWITCH SENSE (T41)
24 E1 20TN FUSED B(+)
25 A141 18DG/WT FUSED AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY OUTPUT
26 - -

INTEGRATED POWER MODULE C7 - 26 WAY


See if pin 11 has a ground when you start it..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I just typed a detailed message and lost it on a server error. I am backing up to this step because I am lost.

 

Your Expert needs more information

From Brad

Tuesday, July 09, 2013 1:02 AM EST

 

 

I have removed the connections on the tipm, they look fine to me. I have sprayed them with electronics cleaner. I am ready to test the wire from the tipm to the pcm. I do not know what wire to test. I am assuming I am doing an ohm check on the wire since the tipm is dismantled.

 

 

I cannot include images....that is why the message crashed

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

I just typed a message and it lloks like it didn't go thru..
Can you see if you can send me a reply?

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I got the message saying you could not send a message..lol

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Ok great!! Messaging works again!!

Ok now here is the TIPM and PCM connections..
TIPM:

CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 T40 14BR STARTER MOTOR RELAY OUTPUT
2 V3 16BR/WT WIPER RELAY LOW SPEED OUTPUT
3 Y105 20BR/RD FUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-ACC)
4 F235 18RD FUSED B(+)
5 - -
6 Y171 18WT/DG LEFT LOW BEAM DRIVER
7 Y168 18WT/LB RIGHT HIGH BEAM DRIVER
8 - -
9 - (EARLY BUILD) -
9 A64 16DG/WT (LATE BUILD) FUEL PUMP RELAY OUTPUT
10 - -
11 K51 18DB/YL AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY CONTROL
12 K127 18DB/OR (CALIFORNIA) OXYGEN SENSOR DOWNSTREAM RELAY CONTROL
13 - -
14 - -
15 Y170 18WT/LG LEFT HIGH BEAM DRIVER
16 Y153 18DB/RD ADJUSTABLE PEDAL RELAY OUTPUT
17 - -
18 - -
19 - (EARLY BUILD) -
19 K31 18BR (LATE BUILD) FUEL PUMP RELAY CONTROL
20 L39 18LB (FOG LAMPS) FOG LAMP RELAY OUTPUT
21 A41 16YL FUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-START)
22 Y169 18WT/TN RIGHT LOW BEAM DRIVER
23 T24 18BR/YL PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SWITCH SENSE (T41)
24 E1 20TN FUSED B(+)
25 A141 18DG/WT FUSED AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY OUTPUT
26 - -

INTEGRATED POWER MODULE C7 - 26 WAY


Find Pin 11 at TIPM and ohm it to the PCM here:

CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 C13 18DB/OR A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH RELAY CONTROL
2 - -
3 K51 18DB/YL AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY CONTROL
4 V36 18TN/RD SPEED CONTROL VACUUM SOLENOID CONTROL
5 V35 18LG/RD SPEED CONTROL VENT SOLENOID CONTROL
6 - -
7 K73 18YL/BK (3.7L) KNOCK SENSOR NO. 1 SIGNAL
8 K199 18BR/VT OXYGEN SENSOR 1/1 HEATER CONTROL
9 K127 18DB/OR OXYGEN SENSOR DOWNSTREAM RELAY CONTROL
10 K106 18WT/DG LEAK DETECTION PUMP SWITCH SENSE
11 V32 18YL/RD SPEED CONTROL SUPPLY
12 A142 16DG/OR AUTO SHUT DOWN RELAY OUTPUT
13 T6 18OR/WT (5.9L) OVERDRIVE OFF SWITCH SENSE
13 T10 18YL/DG (A/T EXCEPT 5.9L) TORQUE MANAGEMENT REQUEST SENSE
14 K107 18OR LEAK DETECTION PUMP SOLENOID CONTROL
15 K118 18PK/YL BATTERY TEMPERATURE SENSOR SIGNAL
16 K299 18BR/WT (CALIFORNIA) OXYGEN SENSOR 2/1 HEATER CONTROL
16 K299 18BR/WT (EXCEPT CALIFORNIA) OXYGEN SENSOR 1/2 HEATER CONTROL
17 - -
18 K74 18BR/VT (3.7L) KNOCK SENSOR NO. 2 SIGNAL
19 K31 18BR FUEL PUMP RELAY CONTROL
20 K52 18PK/BK EVAPORATIVE EMISSION SOLENOID CONTROL
21 - -
22 - -
23 - -
24 K29 18WT/PK BRAKE SWITCH SENSE
25 K125 18WT/DB GENERATOR SOURCE
26 G8 18LB/BK FUEL LEVEL SENSOR SIGNAL
27 D21 18PK SCI TRANSMIT
28 - -
29 D20 18LG SCI RECEIVE
30 D25 18VT/BR PCI BUS
31 - -
32 V37 18RD/LG SPEED CONTROL SWITCH SIGNAL

POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE C3 - GRAY 32 WAY



Find pin 3 which is Dark blue and yellow and ohm that wire.. If less then 5 ohms it's good.. If good then hook it up and turn key on and see if you have ground at tipm.. To test ground clip test light to positive battery post and probe the wire..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


there are 3 26 pin connectors at the blue grey and green. can you tell me which one it is?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
I'm very sorry,, it's gray
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


only the blue connector at the fuse box has an 11 pin in it. grey and green are blank in that spot. are you sure the c7 is not the blue one?


 


 

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

I went and got a picture..


Pin 3 should be Dark Blue/Yellow..

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

OK...tested fine I am guessing that the c7 picture is backwards (like from the wire side) but I took off the boot and the wire was blue with a yellow stripe.


the next test I do not understand you..


do you want me to put tpim back together then do the test?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


are we having communication problems again?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
HI Darrin,

Yes plug the TIPM back in and trim some of the plastic coating back and see if it has ground..

Let me know,
Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

trim plastic coating back where?

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
About 2-3 inches down from the connector.. Just anywhere that you can access easily..
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I do not see a ground connection anywhere on this thing. I took a bolt off that had two positive cables attaching to the box. I just assumed the ground side all came from the wireing harness

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Hi Darrin,

To check for a ground clip the test light to positive and probe the trimmed wire while cranking. It should flash if the wire has ground..

Brad
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


tipm is back together. On the tipm there are two red wires going to a bolt. the wires come from the pos battery, and the alternator. I do not see a ground wire on the tipm.

Expert:  -Brad- replied 1 year ago.
Can you clip the test light to positive... Then test the wire with the test light? While cranking it should light up when trying to start it.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

what wire?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I am still waiting and have no clue what you are asking me to do

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

are you not able to communicate tonight?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


are you back today?

 

I am not sure if you are even getting theses messages any more. will call customer support to see if there is a system problem

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