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Robert R
Robert R, ASE Certified Master
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3032
Experience:  Chrysler Certified, Dodge Sprinter Certified
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2005 cummins starting issues..wont start..fuel filter..injector

Customer Question

2005 cummins starting issues, occasionally wont start not smoking when turning over, new fuel filter, new crank position sensor, new lift pump in tank, fuel comes out at rail when i crack an injector line, lots of fuel comes out at filter housing when i open the bleeder and turn on the key, occasional rough idle, no codes when i do the key thing to bring up the codes, any ideas suggestions what to look for.
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  sevn103 replied 3 years ago.
What make/ model truck and what model engine, do you have engine serial number
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
2005 dodge 3500 laramie 5.9 liter cummins I dont have the serial or arrangement number but can get it in a few days
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
Hello, and welcome to Just Answer. My name isXXXXX can help you on this concern. How many miles are on your vehicle?? Is it hard to start all the time or just in the morning??
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Just broke 300000 kilometers it was hard to start every time, turning over a little longer than normal before starting until a few months ago I found a leaky banjo fitting on the fuel filter housing, it was on the supply line coming from the tank, I changed the washers on the banjo fitting and the truck started properly for about a month then I noticed rough idling occasionally then a few days ago I went to work with it and after work it turned over unusually long before starting then ok for a few more days then the other day in the morning it wouldn't start at all so I went to work and picked up a crank position sensor and changed it after work, it started somewhat ok i think it turned over a bit longer than it should have. the old sensor looked like it had been rubbing on the crank half of it was worn away, the new sensor needed a bit of tweaking so it wouldn't rub at one point I think it was to close to the crank cause it wouldn't start so I moved it away a bit and it started.
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
I am thinking that you may have a fuel injector failing, the clue to that is that you said you noticed rough idling, I'm suspecting one or more injectors failing. When an injector is bad and it is returning too much fuel to the tank it will make it hard to start because it makes it hard to build up enough pressure for injection when too much fuel is escaping through the return system. You will need to run fuel delivery volume and return volume testing to determine if you have bad injectors. another common failure is the fuel limiting valve, if it is leaking, it will cause the same symptoms, hard start or no start, and rough running... The crank sensor may be just coincidence, but what I recommend doing is scanning the vehicle for codes, any codes will help also. Let me know if you are able to have it scanned...

Robert R, ASE Certified Master
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3032
Experience: Chrysler Certified, Dodge Sprinter Certified
Robert R and 7 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I will get codes when I get back to my truck witch is at the airport, I did get a crank position sensor code 3 months back found by using the ignition off and on procedure, but ill get it scanned with a reader. and change the relief valve next week.
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
Ok, If you need more help, don't hesitate to ask...
Robert R, ASE Certified Master
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3032
Experience: Chrysler Certified, Dodge Sprinter Certified
Robert R and 7 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Got back to my truck tonight, it wouldn't start again but I did get it started with either, cracked the rail relief valve banjo fitting when it was idling and fuel came out the top of the relief valve should there be fuel there
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.

Hi, There should be no fuel coming from the limiting valve with the engine running, but just cracking the line loose is not a good way to test it, as any return fuel coming from all returns can end up at that point. What you need is special tool 9013 from Miller Tools in order to diagnose for leakage at the limiting valve. This tool Isolates any return flow from the limiting valve from the rest of the return flow. Any fuel coming out the nipple will be the limiting valve flow, should be no flow...graphic

 

 

To do the test your way, you would need to remove the banjo bolt all together and move the line away from the limiting valve as to separate that flow from the limiting valve. at that point start the vehicle and look for flow coming from the limiting valve itself...

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
OK tested the relief valve and its Ok not leaking now what? I guess testing the return flow to see if injectors are returning to much fuel right?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Forgot to mention it needs a little shot of either now to start warm or cold
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
Yes, Injector return flow testing is needed, but first I recommend testing the Lift pump volume to make sure that the injection pump is receiving enough fuel to begin with.
Yes, the ether makes it easier to start because it actually starts the engine long enough to build fuel pressure to keep it running...
Lift pump volume spec is 590 ml in 10 seconds, if it's low, check to be sure fuel filter is ok. then retest. If volume is too low, Replace the lift pump.
If you need the service procedures for testing return flow, let me know, I should be able to find it for you...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I replaced lift pump and put a new filter in about a month ago just opened the bleeder on filter housing and turned key on didn't get much fuel but I assume you need to turn the pump on by computer to do the test right.
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
If you bump the engine with the key you can make the pump run for about 25 seconds, that's more than enough time to do the volume testing, you just need 2 people, 1 to bump the engine and the other to switch containers to collect 10 seconds worth of fuel...
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
But since the pump is new you can assume that the volume is good as long as there has not been any contamination in the tank since you replaced it... I have the return flow testing procedure but you need a special tools to isolate the return flow to be able to get just the injector return flow... Click here. one thing that I do is instead of putting the 9012 tool in the back of the fuel filter housing, I double seal the tool and put it in the return port at the injection pump and leave the tool inserted for the limiting valve test, this totally Isolates the return flow coming from the injectors (and it's easier than accessing the banjo bolt behind the filter housing) so you will be just getting the flow from the injectors at the quick connect return fitting just behind the fuel filter housing. Do the test at least 2 times to be sure you have a consistant measurement...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
OK took it in to get scanned injector pump shows good pressure, did a volume test on injector pump and got volume within spec, injectors 1/3/5 show 96 97 % efficiency at idle and go as low as 88% the other 3 are 100% at idle. here is whats happening a little unusual not sure if it means anything. every time i loosen an injector line or a line on the pressure side of the injector the truck needs ether to start then I shut it off and when I try to re start if starts fine, it will start fine 2 or three times then its back to using ether, could there be something we are missing. I also wanted to ask you if it was ok to change only the the three injectors that are not working or should I change all of them and is there a way to confirm the injector is bad once I get it out
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.

Ok now that you know that the injection pump is good, Did they get a chance to run the injector return flow test? This is the best way to determine which injector(s) are bad. The cylinder performance test can test the performance while the engine is running but may not necessarily refer to the proper injectors to replace for excessive return flow. I recommend having the injector return flow test done, if the results are more than 250 ml total injector return flow, tighten up all the connector tube nuts and retest it. If the return flow is still more than 250 ml then replacing all 6 injectors is recommended, if the return flow is less that 250 ml, it is recommended to run the injector cap off test to determine which ones are bad and you can just replace the bad ones.

 

As for loosening the injector lines, it is DEFINITELY NOT recommended, especially when engine is running, this IS VERY DANGEROUS, fuel spray can penetrate the skin and can be fatal....The common rail diesel fuel system IS SELF BLEEDING and cracking the lines loose to bleed the system IS NOT NECESSARY. The reason that it is hard to start is that when you loosen the line, some fuel drains out, and because of that it makes it even harder to build enough fuel pressure to start the engine.

 

Then intermittent being able to start and then not being able to start is attributed to the excessive return flow from the injectors. This is just a symptom of the actual problem of the excessive fuel going back to the tank.. Sometimes the bad injector(s) are able to hold back the pressure, sometimes not, depending on how bad the injector is...

Robert R, ASE Certified Master
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3032
Experience: Chrysler Certified, Dodge Sprinter Certified
Robert R and 7 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok I have a plan ill take all injectors out and take them to get tested and replace the ones that fail, as I type this I'm waiting for a tow truck, my clutch went south, it sounds like the center tore out of it, just one more thing to fix on the weekend, what's the procedure? no lift ill have to do it on the floor, any tips
?
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
is it a 2wd or 4wd?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
ItsXXXXX3500 long box
Expert:  Robert R replied 3 years ago.
Basically, you remove both driveshafts, remove the shifter from inside the vehicle, remove the transfer case, remove the transmission crossmember, support the transmission before removing the crossmember, remove clutch slave cylinder, remove electrical wiring, remove bell housing bolts, and then slide transmission rearward to clear the clutch, you may have to support the front of the engine upwards, to make the back hang down enough to clear the shifter housing, then remove the pressure plate and clutch disc. remove the center bolts to remove the flywheel, make sure to send the flywheel out for resurfacing before you reassemble everything...Wink

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