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Randall C
Randall C, ASE Master Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 11383
Experience:  ASE Master Tech, 32 years Diag/Electrical Specialist
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2005 Neon: automatic..security system..the key to the start position

Customer Question

I have a 2005 Neon with automatic and security system. Randomly there is no response when you turn the key to the start position. It happens sometimes first thing in the morning or maybe after driving for a while and after stopping it will not start. I have checked the output of the starter relay when this happens and there is 12 volts. I tested the input to the starter at this time and it is 0 volts. Therefore the starter relay signal is not getting to the starter. Every wiring diagram I can find indicates that there is a direct connection from the starter relay to the starter. When I check from the starter relay to the starter with an ohmmeter it indicates no continuity. This tells me that this is not a direct connection. Therefore I assume that there is something in this circuit that is interrupting this signal. I expect that is is due to the car having a security system. I would like to know what may be my problem and what fixes I may try. It is very frustrating not to be able to rely on the car.
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  Neal replied 3 years ago.

I'm Neal and I am here to assist you. Only accept when you are happy with my assistance. If I can't help I will open your Question to other experts.

 

The only time the Pcm should prevent starting is if the engine is already running.

The PCM controls a double start over-ride safety that does not allow the starter to be engaged if the engine is already running.

 

Here is info from the manual on the starting system. And after that is a diagram of the electrical for the starting system.

 

The starting system consists of:
- Starter relay
- Starter motor (including an integral starter solenoid)

Other components to be considered as part of starting system are:
- Battery
- Battery cables
- Ignition switch and key lock cylinder
- Clutch pedal position switch (manual transmission)
- Park/neutral position switch (automatic transmission)
- Wire harnesses and connections.

The Battery, Starting, and Charging systems operate in conjunction with one another, and must be tested as a complete system. For correct operation of starting/charging systems, all components used in these 3 systems must perform within specifications. When attempting to diagnose any of these systems, it is important that you keep their interdependency in mind.

The diagnostic procedures used in each of these groups include the most basic conventional diagnostic methods, to the more sophisticated On-Board Diagnostics (OBD) built into the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). Use of an induction-type milliampere ammeter, volt/ohmmeter, battery charger, carbon pile rheostat (load tester), and 12-volt test lamp may be required.

These components form two separate circuits. A high amperage circuit that feeds the starter motor up to 300+ amps, and a control circuit that operates on less than 20 amps.

The PCM controls a double start over-ride safety that does not allow the starter to be engaged if the engine is already running.

 

graphic

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Basically you did not tell me anything I did not already know. The wiring diagram in your answer shows a direct connection from the starter relay to the starter. As I stated when I test this path with an ohmmeter it indacates this is not a direct path. Somthing in this path is preventing the starter relay from energizing the starter moter. It cannot be the pcm as the pcm provides 12 volts and ground to the starter relay. When my problem occurs the starter relay is working normally but the output from the relay is not getting to the starter as it is supposed to.
Expert:  Neal replied 3 years ago.
I will opt out and see if someone else can help you.
Expert:  Randall C replied 3 years ago.
Hello, My name isXXXXX will do my best to assist you with your question. No.. there is nothing else in the circuit. The security portion of the system ONLY disables the starter relay. This is done via the PCM.Meaningm no security item is inline from relay to starter. However.. there is a connector showing on the diagram as C101. I have enclosed that diagram showing the connector location but.. I have never had to locate it so cant be much help other than the diagram. maybe bad or loose connection there. If not.. then yes.. 100% you can run remote wire from relay to starter, bypassing any possible wire or connection problem on the brown wire from relay to starter

For all faults except transponder faults and VTSS LED remains on steady. In the event of a transponder fault the LED flashes at a rate of 1 Hz (once per second). If a fault is present the LED will remain on or flashing for the complete ignition cycle. If a fault is stored in SKIM memory which prevents the system from operating properly, the PCM will allow the engine to start and run (for 2 seconds ) up to six times. After the sixth attempt, the PCM disables the starter relay until the fault is corrected.


graphic
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
With your latest info I traced the wire from the starter to the relay. After I took the power distribution center open which is not very easy I have determined that there is a high resistance connection where the relay output connects to the brown wire. Is it possible that you could tell me how to remove the connector from the distribution center so that I may fix it. I know that there is usually a special tool to do this but sometimes you can insert a small screw driver or thin piece of metal to release the connector. Since you did answer my question I will accept your answer. Please let me know if you can answer the above.
Expert:  Randall C replied 3 years ago.
to be honest? I really do not remember as dont do that often. The only info on say.. repalcing the PDC is below


Power Distribution Center

REMOVAL
For complete circuit diagrams, refer to the appropriate wiring information. The wiring information includes wiring diagrams, proper wire and connector repair procedures, details of wire harness routing and retention, connector pin-out information and location views for the various wire harness connectors, splices and grounds.

  1. Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.
  2. Remove the battery.
  3. Remove the air cleaner fasteners and position it away from the PDC.
  4. Remove PDC mounting fasteners and remove bottom cover.
  5. Note the location of the fuses and relays. Remove all the fuses and relays from the PDC.
  6. Remove the terminals from the cavities in the PDC.

INSTALLATION

  1. Insert terminals into the PDC.
  2. Install fuses and relays.
  3. Install bottom cover and install PDC mounting fasteners.
  4. Position air cleaner into place and install mounting fasteners.
  5. Install battery
  6. Connect battery negative cable.



 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Your #6 under Removal says remove the terminals from the cavity. How do you remove the terminals from the cavity?









Expert:  Randall C replied 3 years ago.
without looking I am unsure. Not a common thing we do and just do not remember. I suspect it requires a very small thin screwdriver to release each tab as you indert the tool along side of terminal.Again.. I am sorry in that I just do not remember without looking at it
Randall C, ASE Master Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 11383
Experience: ASE Master Tech, 32 years Diag/Electrical Specialist
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Randall C
Randall C
Dodge Mechanic
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ASE Master Tech, 32 years Diag/Electrical Specialist