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Richard
Richard, Dodge Technician
Category: Dodge
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Experience:  Over 22 years of experience as lead tech and shop foreman.
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2007 dodge: fuel filter..cam sensor..injectors..it wont even fire

Customer Question

I have a 2007 dodge diesel truck that won,t start. I have replaced the fuel filter and put on a new cam sensor. I have fuel to the injectors and yet it wont even fire. I also seem to have voltage to the cam and crank sensors. Do you have any idea what I could look for?
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Hello and welcome to Just Answer!

 

Lets try this - Sit in the vehicle with all doors closed and starting with the key in the off position(1 click clockwise from being able to pull your key out) turn it to ON, OFF, ON, OFF, ON(don't turn the key to the start position just on) within 5 seconds and leave the key on and watch the digital odometer to see if it displays a fault code. It will be a P followed by 4 numbers example P0700. When it is done displaying codes or if there are no codes it will say done. If you can't get this to work, please try it again following the instructions because this will work!

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I have done this and it usually doesn't do anything.But I got a po513 one time and then I tied my spare key after that and still wont fire. I also hooked up to diagnostic and it said cam sensor open circuit. So I replaced cam sensor and I have 4.9 volts on two wires at sensor plug.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Do you know the P code of the fault code for the cam sensor? Was it p0341?

That code procedure will work on your truck.

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Customer: replied 3 years ago.
No I do not. I didn't get a numbered code from the diagostic machine. It only said cam sensor open cicuit. But it also wont bring up any past history. Its like there is no memory in the computor. The only code with the key cycle was the po513 which was a wrong key but I tried a different key and, nothing. I only got a code from that one time out of dozens of tries.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Could I get you to remove the large intake hose from the intake on the drivers side of the engine and spray a little starting fluid into the intake as someone cranks it over. I would like to know if it stays running after it starts on starting fluid. The engine will start on starting fluid!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I tried starting fluid once but and it still didn't seem to fire but I didn't remove the intake hose.What ould that indicate if I do this. The truck is not near my house so I canot do this right now.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

If it stays running after it starts, it is usually related to excessive fuel injector return.

You should never spray starting fluid into the air cleaner, there is a chance it could over rev if too much is sprayed in. I would try that and get back to me when you can. You need a 7/16" deep socket and ratchet to remove the hose clamp from the intake hose.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I can try it. There doesn't ever seem to be any smoke ever out of exhaust. It seems like the injectors aren't spraying any fuel in. Also, the previous two starts befor it quit, I had to crank it a long time and it ran really rough for a while then seemed ok and I shut it off and it hasn't started since. How will I get back with you tomarrow?
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

When the injectors leak, they usually don't leak into the cylinder, they leak past the injector plunger and back into the return system. The injector plunger needs lubrication when they are operating and a small amount of fuel from the high pressure system is fed through the injector to lubricate the plunger.

When the plungers and injector body wears, scores or pits, the injector return flow will be excessive and you will initially get a long crank time and eventually a no start because the injection pump can't keep up with the fuel demand from the leak during engine cranking. When you fire it up with starting fluid, the pump will be able to keep up with the demand because it is turning faster.

This is why I would like to see if it stays running after it starts on starting fluid.

 

When you get to the truck again, I would like you to check for fault codes again using the key cycle or code reader if you have one. The digital odometer will display all engine codes if done correctly. The procedure needs to be done in under 5 seconds for it to work. Use the diagram I sent to see the key positions. I would like to know what the p codes numbers are and then we can go from there!

 

I won't be around tomorrow, but will try and get back to you asap when I get home.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
One more question and I wont bother you any more tonight. I will get on that in morning also. Would it be odd for all or alot of the injectors to go bad at once? I only have 52000 miles on it.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

The chance of all injectors going bad, would be very slim unless you got a bad batch of fuel. All it takes is one bad injector to cause a no start. It might not even be related to an injector and I won't know until you start it on starting fluid.

 

I would also disconnect and re-connect both battery negative battery cables and try to start the truck. If the truck won't start, crank the engine over for 10 seconds and re-check the fault codes to see if any return.

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

It wont stay running.

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Did you re-check it for fault codes?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Yes and there it doesn't show anything. It just comes back to odometer reading.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Did the odometer say done? If there are no codes, it will say done.

 

I have a 2007 Ram and I know this procedure works and it has to work on your truck if done correctly.



Edited by DODGETECH2875 on 10/17/2010 at 2:42 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
It says done when you get anything, which is only about 10% of the times. We even timed ourselvles so we know it is done within 5 seconds.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I apologize for the difficulty on this. I can understand how hard this can be to find. I know alot but not enough some times. I will do my best to keep you informed and I do appreciate all your time and I fully intend to compensate you for your help. I am concerned about my ECM. It seems like I should get more readings.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

No problem, I wish I could help you more!

I wouldn't be concerned about the ECM yet. These are one of the best controllers made! If you can't get anything by the key cycle, I would check for codes again using a scan tool or code reader.

I would clear the codes and then crank the engine over for 10 seconds continuously and repeat this one more time and re-check for codes.

 

Let me know if you get any codes.

Thank you,

Richard



Edited by DODGETECH2875 on 10/17/2010 at 3:44 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
dont have access to scaner right now. But did jog memory of guy helping me and we had code one time other than 513 and am trying to find were it got wrote it down, it was po25 something. hope to find that. Also engine was 2 quart low on oil and oil filter was lose and leaking slightly. I am wondering if this could cause anything. This thing happened all at once. Started slow twice then hasn't started since.Is there any way to tell if injectors are shooting Fuel. Seems like you can smell a little raw fuel smell after you crank it with throttle to the floor.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

If the oil was only 2 quarts low, that wouldn't have anything to do with this.

 

There is no way to tell if the injectors are shooting fuel into the combustion chamber.. You can't loosen the injector lines like you used to on the old mechanical injection systems, to see if the engine was getting fuel. The old diesel injection system used pop pressure to open the injector and these new ones are opened electronically.

 

The first thing we need to do is hook up a scan tool and see if the common rail pressure is building up during engine cranking. The engine should start if the pressure is over 4000 psi. If the common rail pressure isn't coming up then we will know it's not getting fuel or there is a large leak. We will also need to get it checked for fault codes. Most problems will set a code and that will give me something to go on.

 

This engine will start up if there is no crank signal from the crank sensor, but will have a hard time starting if it has no cam sensor signal.

Richard, Dodge Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3970
Experience: Over 22 years of experience as lead tech and shop foreman.
Richard and 6 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
i wasnt sure if i could still talk after i accept so i am going to do that after i send you this. the other code i found was 2509
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

P2509 is a power down data lost error code. This code sets when there is a loss of voltage detected at the ECM for a calibrated amount of time.

This code could be caused by low battery voltage, burnt fuse, poor connections between the battery posts and clamps and etc.

This code is a fairly common code and I am not sure if it is related to this problem.

 

Can you tell me if the red round security light in the instrument cluster stays on or flashes when the key is turned on for a few seconds? This light should go off after the key has been turned on for a few seconds.

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I will have to chack it tomarrow. Thanks alot for your help. I am really trying to avoid haveing this thing towed to the dealer. I live about 50 miles from town.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

No problem!

Let me know what the light does after the key has been turned on for a few seconds,

it should go out!

 

Do you have access to a scan tool? A scan tool is capable of more than just reading the codes, it can display sensor data, input and outputs and etc.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I think I can come up with one.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

That would be great! I would like you to read all the codes, plus view the common rail pressure sensor while cranking the engine over. The pressure should come up quickly and once it hits around 4000psi it should start. Let me know if you can do this!

Thank you,

Richard

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
The light just goes out after the key is on for few seconds. The light never flashes.I am going to try scaner somtime today I hope. Trying with the key just doesn't work and I am sure it is being done right. It just goes back to odometer reading every time. It doesn't even say done.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Ok, I have scaner info at this time.

-fuel rail prerssure when cranking 6500psi

- code 0251 comes up

- Says with words- ecm power loss

-cam sensor open circuit

-513 code is still there

injectors seem ok just says 0

fuel pressure set point reads something like 37 million ?

- engine ECM rpm is 188

- cam speed is 185rpm

-crank speed is 185rpm

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

It looks like you are getting false codes and readings from your scan tool.

P0251 is a CP3 pump regulator control fault code and has nothing to do with the cam sensor or power ECM power loss. The fuel regulation is done by the fuel control actuator on the injection pump. This code sets when the ECM detects a discrepancy between the Pulse width modulation signal supplied to the Fuel Control Actuator and the PWM signal returned from the Fuel Control Actuator.

 

Fuel pressure set point should read around 4500-6000 psi during engine cranking. I think we have a scan tool giving us false info and we need to get the correct info to diagnose this properly.

 

I am going to make a video on retrieving codes by the key cycle and odometer and I will try and send it to you asap.

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
ok thanks. I just keep wondering if something happened to my ECM . It seems very odd to me that I cant get any codes from onboard diagnostic. Could there be something wrong with the skeem module?
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Your sentry key immobilizer module appears to be working fine. The security light should turn out after the key is on for a few seconds and yours is doing that.

 

If you had an invalid key, the engine would start and stall three times and then not start until a good key is used and the security light would flash with the key on.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I guess I am reaching for anything now. My trucks been down for two weeks and I'm getting a little frustrated. Thanks for trying to help me.

Steve

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

I didn't realize your truck has been down that long. I know how frustrated you must be.

Can you go to the following link to download some info?

http://www.4shared.com/document/t4BTqKg-/youtube_link.html

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Thank you for that. That is exactly what has been done now many times and it just simpley goes to odometer reading.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
If you think of anything else let me know. I will make this right with you. I appreciate all your help.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I finally got some codes. I made sure of everything by disconecting battery and then cranking for 10 sec at a time andthen checked for codes with key. Here they are in order.

-po513

-po521

-po251

-po2507

-done

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Perfect!

Are you sure the last code was p2507? That is not a valid code.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I can't read my own wrighting. Maybe 2509
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Do you have a digital multimeter?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

yes

 

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Can I get you to test the battery voltage at the driver side battery and then check the battery voltage while someone cranks the engine over.

Let me know the two readings!

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok. be awhile for me to get there. I'll head there now. I have been chargeing batteries to keep voltage up. But I will go check. Should I check anything else will I'm there? I don't have email access at the truck so I will have to run back.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

P2509 can set when the battery voltage gets too low while cranking the engine over. I worked on a truck today that was setting p2509 and was hard starting and it ended up being 1 bad battery. The battery voltage dropped to 8.5 volts and the one battery was no good.

 

If the battery voltage goes below 9.5 volts, I would like you to disconnect the pass side battery and crank the engine over to see if it will crank over. The engine should crank over on one fully charged battery, but the voltage will drop below 9.5 volts.(approx).

 



Edited by DODGETECH2875 on 10/20/2010 at 2:38 AM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

 

battatery voltage 12.52 while cranking drops to 11.0 volts

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

That looks good to me! It shouldn't be setting the p2509, unless there is a loss of voltage/ground to the ECM or the ECM is faulty.

 

Did the battery voltage get down while you were cranking it before?

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

not really. We have been chargeing it some. It has always cranked over fast. I did unhook the passenger side battery and the voltage started at 12.7 abd dropped to 9.8.

I wonder if I could have a ground wire loose also

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Was anything done to your truck just prior to this happening?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
No work of any kind. I have been harvesting for 3 weeks as I am a farmer. I just dove it around working and I had hooked up an electric fuel transfer pump to bring fuel to combine a few times. I changed fuel filter after it wouldn't start.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

You still have fault code P0251 which the a CP3 fuel regulation and I am wondering if there is a problem with the fuel control actuator. Can you disconnect the FCA and see if the engine will start? If the engine starts, it will be very noise and run rough with this disconnected.

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Customer: replied 3 years ago.

The engine started after I disconected the FCA! This is the first headway I have had in 2 weeks. Wow. Does that Fca create more pressure to injectors when its pluged in? Also do you remember I had a fuel set point reading with code reader of 373,000,000. I also got a new code from key of 0088. Let me know what you think. Thanks

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

When you disconnect the FCA it allows full flow to the injection pump and the common rail pressure will be at maximum pressure, which can be as high as 23,500 psi. The PCM controls the amount of fuel to the injection pump by opening or closing the solenoid. P0088 will set with the FCA disconnected because, the actual pressure is much higher than the setpoint pressure. It is impossible for the PCM to show setpoint as high as 370,000,000 and there was likely a software glitch with the scan tool you were using and it was showing an incorrect value.

 

Can you do this test?

Connect an incandescent test light across the Fuel Control Actuator driver pin and the Fuel Control Actuator return wire at the fuel control actuator connector. Turn the ignition on, engine not running. Observe the test light. The ECM will perform a self test of the circuit which should momentarily flash the test light brightly, one time, approximately 20 seconds after ignition on.

Let me know if the test light illuminates like it is supposed to.

Thank you,

Richard

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I will but I'm not sure which is which. Do I unplug the connector and juct short the wires or do you mean try to put the light on one of the pins on the fca itself and then to one of the wires. If so which one?

Thanks Steve

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

I drew a picture of what you need to do. All you need to do is disconnect the FCA connector and hook up the test light the way I have it drawn. You can use a paper clip to insert into the FCA terminal so you can clip your ground lead to. I hope this helps!

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Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I will do that. It might be in morning as I just got back from meeting. What will that tell me if it lights up.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
That should tell us the circuit is good and you will likely need a FCA.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Well I hope thats it. That wouldn't be so bad. I'll let you know.

Thanks alot.

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

I hope so too!!

Let me know the results from the test!

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I did the test and the light flashed once when I I turned the key on. I'm pretty sure it didn't take 20 seconds, in fact it flahed right after we turned on the key. It also flashed once as the key was shut off. Thanks Steve
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Yeah, I realize now that was a mistake in the diagnostic manual. The light should turn on right away when you turn the key on. I just tried it on a truck I am working on now and as soon as I turned the key on the light turned on for a second then went out.

 

When you had the FCA disconnected, was the engine noisy and run rough?

Is there a chance you could read the fuel pressure with the FCA disconnected to make sure there is lots of pressure?



Edited by DODGETECH2875 on 10/21/2010 at 4:31 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
No , I dont have scan tool anymore. It ran rough at first then started to get better but I didn't want to run it long.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

I think we will have to replace the FCA, the part # XXXXX XXXXX

I was wondering if the high pressure sensor was showing to high and closing the FCA, but the sensor should be ok because it set code P0088 after we disconnected the FCA.

I know these will start even if the common rail pressure sensor is disconnected. When the sensor is disconnected it will show the common rail pressure at 27,500 psi and that reduces the setpoint to around 2170psi, which should cause the ECM to close off the FCA, but the engine will still start. So, that tells me we have a problem with the FCA.

 

Lets cross our fingers and hope this fixes it!!

Richard, Dodge Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3970
Experience: Over 22 years of experience as lead tech and shop foreman.
Richard and 6 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Hey Richard. I know you won't want to here this, but I tried the FCA and that did not fix it.I did unplug the rail sensor and the truck will start like that. If you still want to help do you have another idea?

Thanks Steve

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Damn, that's not good

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How does the engine run with the pressure sensor disconnected, have you taken it for a drive with it disconnected?

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
It cranks longer than it should but it sounds ok after start. I have not driven it. I have taken fitting off of the relief valve and there is fuel there. I am concerened about that.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

The only way to check the pressure limiting valve(relief) is by installing a special fitting to observe leakage.

I really wish we had a scan tool to monitor rail pressure!

 

Can you take your truck out and drive it down the road to see how it performs?

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I guess.Can you tell me where we are going with this
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
What about ECM or pressure sensor. When I did scan it last we had 6500psi.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

I forgot you had check the pressure before while cranking. This is a very strange problem!

Let me do a little more research on this, I want to see if there is something I am over looking!

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
alright . It is strange. I may try to drive it.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Can you disconnect the batteries again? The turn the key on for a minute without starting it and see what codes come up after a minute.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
code numbers: 513, 521, 2509, 251, 0088, 193.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Did you get these codes after you erased the codes and with everything connected and only with the key on?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
yes.
Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Do you have any performance chip installed that could be affecting this?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

no, I put in relies vaules from my 05 truck and we got it to run but it seems to run rough.

 

 

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

We are going to have to start checking the fuel system then! It sounds like you have more than 1 problem!

We must have excessive leakage and the injection pump can't keep up with the fuel demand unless we bypass the FCA and give the injection pump full flow.

 

Would you have access to any of the tools required to check injector return, pump return and the pressure limiting valve?

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

No

 

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

By disconnecting the FCA, we are allowing the injection pump to receive maximum fuel volume.

I originally thought we might have a injector return issue, but after seeing some of those codes, I wasn't that sure anymore.

We are going to have to get the fuel system checked with the special tools, that is the only way to test this fuel system. There are special fittings needed to check injector return, pump return, and etc.

 

I would also like you to check transfer pump flow to the injection pump. The fuel supply line leads to the bottom of the fuel filter housing and we need to remove that line from the injection pump and hold that into a container and get someone to bump the starter.

I would like to know how much fuel you have after the pump runs for 10 seconds. You should have at least 400ml in 10 seconds for the engine to start.

Let me know!

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I have got it running and it seems to run well. First I put on a relief valve from my 05 and after starting hard with throtle two the floor, it ran. Very rough til we got all air out I think.So I put my orriginal valve on my 05 and it ran fine! Then put all parts back on original trucks and my 07 will run fine! I think we had a bad cam sensor at first and then some how got two much raw fuel in cylinders and couldnt get good compresion, maybe. My oil looks a little thin and over full from where it was. I plan on changeing it again.

Thanks again

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.

Let me know if you have anymore problems! Things like this are always tough to diagnose over the internet.

Thank you,

Richard

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I am thankfull for your help. I wouldn't have been thiss far along without your help. Believe me I know how hard it is to do second hand.

Thanks again

Expert:  Richard replied 3 years ago.
Thank you for understanding! I wish everyone would be as understanding as you!!

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