Hello and welcome to Just Answer!
Lets try this - Sit in the vehicle with all doors closed and starting with the key in the off position(1 click clockwise from being able to pull your key out) turn it to ON, OFF, ON, OFF, ON(don't turn the key to the start position just on) within 5 seconds and leave the key on and watch the digital odometer to see if it displays a fault code. It will be a P followed by 4 numbers example P0700. When it is done displaying codes or if there are no codes it will say done. If you can't get this to work, please try it again following the instructions because this will work!
Do you know the P code of the fault code for the cam sensor? Was it p0341?
That code procedure will work on your truck.
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If it stays running after it starts, it is usually related to excessive fuel injector return.
You should never spray starting fluid into the air cleaner, there is a chance it could over rev if too much is sprayed in. I would try that and get back to me when you can. You need a 7/16" deep socket and ratchet to remove the hose clamp from the intake hose.
When the injectors leak, they usually don't leak into the cylinder, they leak past the injector plunger and back into the return system. The injector plunger needs lubrication when they are operating and a small amount of fuel from the high pressure system is fed through the injector to lubricate the plunger.
When the plungers and injector body wears, scores or pits, the injector return flow will be excessive and you will initially get a long crank time and eventually a no start because the injection pump can't keep up with the fuel demand from the leak during engine cranking. When you fire it up with starting fluid, the pump will be able to keep up with the demand because it is turning faster.
This is why I would like to see if it stays running after it starts on starting fluid.
When you get to the truck again, I would like you to check for fault codes again using the key cycle or code reader if you have one. The digital odometer will display all engine codes if done correctly. The procedure needs to be done in under 5 seconds for it to work. Use the diagram I sent to see the key positions. I would like to know what the p codes numbers are and then we can go from there!
I won't be around tomorrow, but will try and get back to you asap when I get home.
The chance of all injectors going bad, would be very slim unless you got a bad batch of fuel. All it takes is one bad injector to cause a no start. It might not even be related to an injector and I won't know until you start it on starting fluid.
I would also disconnect and re-connect both battery negative battery cables and try to start the truck. If the truck won't start, crank the engine over for 10 seconds and re-check the fault codes to see if any return.
It wont stay running.
Did the odometer say done? If there are no codes, it will say done.
I have a 2007 Ram and I know this procedure works and it has to work on your truck if done correctly.
No problem, I wish I could help you more!
I wouldn't be concerned about the ECM yet. These are one of the best controllers made! If you can't get anything by the key cycle, I would check for codes again using a scan tool or code reader.
I would clear the codes and then crank the engine over for 10 seconds continuously and repeat this one more time and re-check for codes.
Let me know if you get any codes.
If the oil was only 2 quarts low, that wouldn't have anything to do with this.
There is no way to tell if the injectors are shooting fuel into the combustion chamber.. You can't loosen the injector lines like you used to on the old mechanical injection systems, to see if the engine was getting fuel. The old diesel injection system used pop pressure to open the injector and these new ones are opened electronically.
The first thing we need to do is hook up a scan tool and see if the common rail pressure is building up during engine cranking. The engine should start if the pressure is over 4000 psi. If the common rail pressure isn't coming up then we will know it's not getting fuel or there is a large leak. We will also need to get it checked for fault codes. Most problems will set a code and that will give me something to go on.
This engine will start up if there is no crank signal from the crank sensor, but will have a hard time starting if it has no cam sensor signal.
P2509 is a power down data lost error code. This code sets when there is a loss of voltage detected at the ECM for a calibrated amount of time.
This code could be caused by low battery voltage, burnt fuse, poor connections between the battery posts and clamps and etc.
This code is a fairly common code and I am not sure if it is related to this problem.
Can you tell me if the red round security light in the instrument cluster stays on or flashes when the key is turned on for a few seconds? This light should go off after the key has been turned on for a few seconds.
Let me know what the light does after the key has been turned on for a few seconds,
it should go out!
Do you have access to a scan tool? A scan tool is capable of more than just reading the codes, it can display sensor data, input and outputs and etc.
That would be great! I would like you to read all the codes, plus view the common rail pressure sensor while cranking the engine over. The pressure should come up quickly and once it hits around 4000psi it should start. Let me know if you can do this!
Ok, I have scaner info at this time.
-fuel rail prerssure when cranking 6500psi
- code 0251 comes up
- Says with words- ecm power loss
-cam sensor open circuit
-513 code is still there
injectors seem ok just says 0
fuel pressure set point reads something like 37 million ?
- engine ECM rpm is 188
- cam speed is 185rpm
-crank speed is 185rpm
It looks like you are getting false codes and readings from your scan tool.
P0251 is a CP3 pump regulator control fault code and has nothing to do with the cam sensor or power ECM power loss. The fuel regulation is done by the fuel control actuator on the injection pump. This code sets when the ECM detects a discrepancy between the Pulse width modulation signal supplied to the Fuel Control Actuator and the PWM signal returned from the Fuel Control Actuator.
Fuel pressure set point should read around 4500-6000 psi during engine cranking. I think we have a scan tool giving us false info and we need to get the correct info to diagnose this properly.
I am going to make a video on retrieving codes by the key cycle and odometer and I will try and send it to you asap.
Your sentry key immobilizer module appears to be working fine. The security light should turn out after the key is on for a few seconds and yours is doing that.
If you had an invalid key, the engine would start and stall three times and then not start until a good key is used and the security light would flash with the key on.
I guess I am reaching for anything now. My trucks been down for two weeks and I'm getting a little frustrated. Thanks for trying to help me.
I didn't realize your truck has been down that long. I know how frustrated you must be.
Can you go to the following link to download some info?
I finally got some codes. I made sure of everything by disconecting battery and then cranking for 10 sec at a time andthen checked for codes with key. Here they are in order.
Are you sure the last code was p2507? That is not a valid code.
Can I get you to test the battery voltage at the driver side battery and then check the battery voltage while someone cranks the engine over.
Let me know the two readings!
P2509 can set when the battery voltage gets too low while cranking the engine over. I worked on a truck today that was setting p2509 and was hard starting and it ended up being 1 bad battery. The battery voltage dropped to 8.5 volts and the one battery was no good.
If the battery voltage goes below 9.5 volts, I would like you to disconnect the pass side battery and crank the engine over to see if it will crank over. The engine should crank over on one fully charged battery, but the voltage will drop below 9.5 volts.(approx).
battatery voltage 12.52 while cranking drops to 11.0 volts
That looks good to me! It shouldn't be setting the p2509, unless there is a loss of voltage/ground to the ECM or the ECM is faulty.
Did the battery voltage get down while you were cranking it before?
not really. We have been chargeing it some. It has always cranked over fast. I did unhook the passenger side battery and the voltage started at 12.7 abd dropped to 9.8.
I wonder if I could have a ground wire loose also
You still have fault code P0251 which the a CP3 fuel regulation and I am wondering if there is a problem with the fuel control actuator. Can you disconnect the FCA and see if the engine will start? If the engine starts, it will be very noise and run rough with this disconnected.
The engine started after I disconected the FCA! This is the first headway I have had in 2 weeks. Wow. Does that Fca create more pressure to injectors when its pluged in? Also do you remember I had a fuel set point reading with code reader of 373,000,000. I also got a new code from key of 0088. Let me know what you think. Thanks
When you disconnect the FCA it allows full flow to the injection pump and the common rail pressure will be at maximum pressure, which can be as high as 23,500 psi. The PCM controls the amount of fuel to the injection pump by opening or closing the solenoid. P0088 will set with the FCA disconnected because, the actual pressure is much higher than the setpoint pressure. It is impossible for the PCM to show setpoint as high as 370,000,000 and there was likely a software glitch with the scan tool you were using and it was showing an incorrect value.
Can you do this test?
Connect an incandescent test light across the Fuel Control Actuator driver pin and the Fuel Control Actuator return wire at the fuel control actuator connector. Turn the ignition on, engine not running. Observe the test light. The ECM will perform a self test of the circuit which should momentarily flash the test light brightly, one time, approximately 20 seconds after ignition on.
Let me know if the test light illuminates like it is supposed to.
I will but I'm not sure which is which. Do I unplug the connector and juct short the wires or do you mean try to put the light on one of the pins on the fca itself and then to one of the wires. If so which one?
I drew a picture of what you need to do. All you need to do is disconnect the FCA connector and hook up the test light the way I have it drawn. You can use a paper clip to insert into the FCA terminal so you can clip your ground lead to. I hope this helps!
Well I hope thats it. That wouldn't be so bad. I'll let you know.
I hope so too!!
Let me know the results from the test!
Yeah, I realize now that was a mistake in the diagnostic manual. The light should turn on right away when you turn the key on. I just tried it on a truck I am working on now and as soon as I turned the key on the light turned on for a second then went out.
When you had the FCA disconnected, was the engine noisy and run rough?
Is there a chance you could read the fuel pressure with the FCA disconnected to make sure there is lots of pressure?
I think we will have to replace the FCA, the part # XXXXX XXXXX
I was wondering if the high pressure sensor was showing to high and closing the FCA, but the sensor should be ok because it set code P0088 after we disconnected the FCA.
I know these will start even if the common rail pressure sensor is disconnected. When the sensor is disconnected it will show the common rail pressure at 27,500 psi and that reduces the setpoint to around 2170psi, which should cause the ECM to close off the FCA, but the engine will still start. So, that tells me we have a problem with the FCA.
Lets cross our fingers and hope this fixes it!!
Hey Richard. I know you won't want to here this, but I tried the FCA and that did not fix it.I did unplug the rail sensor and the truck will start like that. If you still want to help do you have another idea?
Damn, that's not good
How does the engine run with the pressure sensor disconnected, have you taken it for a drive with it disconnected?
The only way to check the pressure limiting valve(relief) is by installing a special fitting to observe leakage.
I really wish we had a scan tool to monitor rail pressure!
Can you take your truck out and drive it down the road to see how it performs?
I forgot you had check the pressure before while cranking. This is a very strange problem!
Let me do a little more research on this, I want to see if there is something I am over looking!
no, I put in relies vaules from my 05 truck and we got it to run but it seems to run rough.
We are going to have to start checking the fuel system then! It sounds like you have more than 1 problem!
We must have excessive leakage and the injection pump can't keep up with the fuel demand unless we bypass the FCA and give the injection pump full flow.
Would you have access to any of the tools required to check injector return, pump return and the pressure limiting valve?
By disconnecting the FCA, we are allowing the injection pump to receive maximum fuel volume.
I originally thought we might have a injector return issue, but after seeing some of those codes, I wasn't that sure anymore.
We are going to have to get the fuel system checked with the special tools, that is the only way to test this fuel system. There are special fittings needed to check injector return, pump return, and etc.
I would also like you to check transfer pump flow to the injection pump. The fuel supply line leads to the bottom of the fuel filter housing and we need to remove that line from the injection pump and hold that into a container and get someone to bump the starter.
I would like to know how much fuel you have after the pump runs for 10 seconds. You should have at least 400ml in 10 seconds for the engine to start.
Let me know!
I have got it running and it seems to run well. First I put on a relief valve from my 05 and after starting hard with throtle two the floor, it ran. Very rough til we got all air out I think.So I put my orriginal valve on my 05 and it ran fine! Then put all parts back on original trucks and my 07 will run fine! I think we had a bad cam sensor at first and then some how got two much raw fuel in cylinders and couldnt get good compresion, maybe. My oil looks a little thin and over full from where it was. I plan on changeing it again.
Let me know if you have anymore problems! Things like this are always tough to diagnose over the internet.
I am thankfull for your help. I wouldn't have been thiss far along without your help. Believe me I know how hard it is to do second hand.