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Dodgerench
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3119
Experience:  30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
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1993 dodge caravan will not start. automatic shutdown relay

Customer Question

1993 dodge caravan will not start. automatic shutdown relay will not turn on when trying to start. as a result no voltage to fuel pump,ignition or injectors. ..... The fuel pump works when i connected 12 volts directly to it.

I dont have schematic so i cannot trace wires from relay.. asd relay pin 30 has red white wire,pin 85 has 2 wires blue/yellow, pin 86 blue pin 87 green orange

fuel pump relay pin 30 red white,pin 85 blue yellow pin 86 blue white pin 87 green brown to the fuel pump
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
HiCustomer welcome to Just Answer!.

Just a few questions to get me up to speed...

Do you have ASD output? Spark?
Do you see two voltage sources below the fuel pump relay with the key on?

The blue-yellow double wire is a common control source from the PCM that controls the fuel pump and ASD relays together. I'd expect both to fire if you can get the ASD to work and the engine produces spark.

With no spark, you might have other issues, like loss of cam or crank signal generation. In case you've not tried this before, you can extract codes using the old Chrysler "flash method"... something not quite as good as an actual scan but better than nothing.
Roll the key from off to on three times, leaving the key ON.

Watch the CHECK ENGINE lamp as it does a longer than normal bulb check (close to 5 seconds) and then goes dark.

When the CE light comes back, it will be flashing, so be ready to keep count.

The pauses between flashes tell you what to do, much like Morse Code. Short pauses mean you should continue counting... this digit isn't done yet.

Longer pauses mean the digit is completed and you're moving on to the next one.

All trouble codes are composed of two digits, like 12 or 55, so you will always have an even number of digits once the flash code process is over.

Repeating the process 2-3 times is highly recommended if you're not a flash code veteran... codes such as 12 often become... "3" if the pauses aren't recognized.

Talk shortly,
Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

a. with switch On, i notice +12 v on pin 86 of fuel pump relay , there is also +12 v on pin 30 with or without key in the On position.. I dont recall monitoring any voltages on pin 85 and pin 87 of the fuel pump relay

 

b. no output from the asd relay pin 87. I may have to go back and check this tomorrow and get back with you .. it is late here california time and the vehicle is some distance away from my location

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Thanks. It sounds like you have the needed power supplies, so it may simply be a problem with signal generation. The blue/ yellow wires should show momentary grounding when the key is rolled on or when the engine is cranked. This is the control circuit for your two relays.

If you don't see any sort of activity on the blue/ yellow circuits and you see no CHECK ENGINE lamp illumination at key on (or with the code-read process), the PCM might not be active. Let me know and we'll look into it.

I'll be at work tomorrow, but check my mail often. Write when you've got news!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Ok thanks very much, I will get back with you tomorrow as soon as i am able to re verified and recheck the physical data

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Sounds good, Sam!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Hello Ed

ED

 

G ood morning sir

 

This morning i did just as you said last night

 

With the key in the ON position, there is +12 v on asd relay pin 85 2 blue yellow wires. there is also +12 v on fuel pump relay pin 85 blue yellow wire.

 

with the key in the ON position the CHECK ENGINE lamp illuminate for about 5 seconds and go out..

 

I ran the key to position 2 but still will not start

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Ooops.... I forgot something. Since the blue-yellow wire (the double one) controls both the fuel pump and ASD, leaving one of the two relays installed will cause this circuit to be powered as well. You will be reading the backfeed from the other relay when one is left installed.

 

Take 'em both out and check again. NOW there should be two voltage sources present.

 

Sorry!

 

Did you have any luck with the flash codes?

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

a.. i remroved connector from both relays as instructed, with key in ON position, 0 volts at asd blue yellow 2 wires,, also 0 volts at fuel pump blue yellow wire

 

re install only the asd relay, there is +12 v at the 2 blue yellow wire

disconnect asd relay and reinstall the fuel pump relay , there is + 12 v at the fuel pump

blue yellow wire

 

b ...i did not have any luck with flash codes ..i am not a vetran at this.... is there any other way to resolve this code issue ..... if there is not then i will have to spent more time to understand this flash code issue

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

No power present at any of the other terminals? I think pins 30 and 86 of the relay should both be hot with the key on.

 

The flash code thing can actually be initiated by rolling the key to ON three times or more within five seconds, so don't by shy about cycling the key. Once you can get it flashing, it will make more sense to you.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

a. with asd relay installed and fuel pump relay disconnected from circuit,there is +12 v at asd 2 blue and yellow, + 12 v at pin 30 and +12 v at pin 86 of same relay

 

b. i will spend some time with the flash codes as you have instructed and get back with you later this afternoon

 

thanks again until i get back with you

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

It sounds like your powers are OK. Good luck with the flash codes, Sam!

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Ed, hello again

 

I run the key 3 times within 5 sec then left it in the ON position

the check engine lamp goes out

 

 

 

when the ce light comes back on i count 1 2 3 flashes then pause

then 1 2 3 4 flashes then pause

then 1 2 flashes then pause

then XXXXXXXXXXX then went off completely dark

 

all of the pause intervals are of the same time interval....

 

also to repeat my earlier findings the asd relay 2wire blue yellow has +12 v, pin 30 has +12 v, pin86 has +12 v with key in ON position

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
I'm guessing a bit here, Sam... but it looks like you may have codes 34, 11 and 55 stored. I'm running with 55 because it's the last code shown in any code-read process even though you show 56 (11 flashes) which seems unlikely.

Ignore the code 34 for now because if accurate... it just describes speed control issues or the lack of speed control circuits (consistent with vans without cruise).

Code 11 (the two flashes) could mean that you're lacking a crankshaft position sensor signal, which will sure mess up spark production. Let's check it out.

The crank sensor is located inconveniently on the top-rear of the transmission bellhousing, at about the 2 o'clock position of the trans if you were to look at it from the driver's side fender. It's hidden pretty well below the exhaust crossover and is a 3-wire sensor bolted into place by a single 10mm fastener.

Locate the wiring pigtail that goes to the crank sensor and then check wire colors. The grey/ black wire is your signal circuit and the first thing to check.

Backprobe the wire by inserting a paper clip (or similar object) through the weatherpack seal at the harness end connector... the wire end. You can also pierce the wire to get a reading, but it must be repaired afterward to keep water from messing with the sensitive signal.

This circuit is normally 5v when not grounded, which is what the crank sensor does to produce a signal. As the sensor picks up on the windows on the transmission flexplate, it will alternately ground the 5v pull-up signal to turn it to 0v and then return to 5v as the ground is released. That's what you'll be looking for.

Because it's impossible to see this signal change in real time on a digital voltmeter when cranking the engine, you'll need to "bump" the engine slightly while watching the meter for change on the circuit. Expect to see 5v...0v...5v...0v... etc. The matrix for this circuit must be close to those values because 1v...4v...1v...4v won't cut it. The PCM is looking for full size square waves produced by a healthy crank sensor.

This area isn't easy to work in and I apologize for sending you there... but we have no choice. Check it out and let me know what you find. I'm not going to be around the rest of the night (loooooooooooong day) so fill me in tomorrow if you would.

Lack of good switching on the grey/ black wire almost certainly means a bad sensor in this case. Be sure to let me know what you find before heading out to buy a new one, tho!

I have to send this as an answer, but it doesn't mean you should click the accept button just yet. I'm doing this only because of site rules, but I'd prefer that we solve the problem before the clicking part!

Talk in the morning,
Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

This is taking much longer to resolve this issue due to the fact that i have to go back and forth to run these tests on the minivan, therefore i am authorising you to keep this ticket open for a while longer and i will deposit another $13.. let me know how to do that..

 

Well, it looks like the crank sensor on this minivan is somewhat different... There is a 8 pin connector with 8 wires that is located in the same area as you have described above bolted in place by a single 5/16 mm fastner.. none of these wires are grey/black

 

Below this connector some distant apart there are 2 seperate sensor type module with threads on them that are screwed directly into the transmission. each one of these sensor type thing has 3 wires .. one has blue, grey and black/yellow color wires... the other one has black/red,grey/white and green color wires

 

I don't know the function of each.. I dont see any other plug or connector going into the transmission...The same cable from which these wires came from are routed to the starter and behind the engine to the other side

 

 

sam frazer

 

 

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Hi Sam.

You found the transmission solenoid pack... not the crank sensor. You'll have to look way farther back on the trans bellhousing (next to the engine) to find the crank sensor. I believe it's the only thing in the area that bolts up with a 10mm bolt and has the three wire connector unless there's a vehicle speed sensor down farther on the assembly. This is what you're looking for...

 

graphic

 

This view is impossible for you to obtain, but would be basically from the brake pedal under the dash looking forward. The crank sensor connector is the black round rubberized thing with no clasp to hold it together.

 

It's not a handy place to work, but welcome to my world... =/

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Thanks for your response .. I spend some time yesturday trying to find the sensor. I found it late last night. My battery had gone dead so i had to get it recharged..

 

I had to disconnect the sensor from the transmission and splice thru the grey/black middle conductor wire to make good connection.. After reinstalling the sensor and

run the test as sugested there is no signal on that grey/black wire

 

With key off and my meter connected between -side of battery and sensor grey/black lead i read 30 millivolt.. with key in ON , the meter read 35 millivolts, try to start meter remain 35 millivolt

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
I think you found it, Sam! It appears you have a problem with either the crank sensor or the crank sensor sense circuit. We'll find out which one shortly here.

The readings should certainly change to a higher voltage when you crank the engine. Since you know it doesn't, the next step is to disconnect the crank sensor and check the same wire in an open circuit environment with the key on. You should see something very close to 5.0 volts if the circuit is in good shape. If it's less than 4.9v, we've got other problems.

The way this circuit works is the PCM sends out a very weak 5v signal on the grey/ black wire, one that's designed to be shorted to ground. When shorted, voltage will drop to 0v, when open it stays at 5v... producing a square wave. We need to find out if this pull-up voltage is present with the sensor disconnected.

The orange wire should show something between 8v and 9v (8.8v typical) when tested the same way. This feed is what powers the crank sensor, with the last wire (black/ light blue) being a ground source. Expect to see about 25 ohms or less to battery negative with your meter set on the 200 ohm scale.

Let me know what you find!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Thanks for your quick response.. As instructed i discinnected the sensor from the chassi ground.. with switch off , and meter connected between chassi ground and gery/black wire there is 33 millivolts ..with key in ON there is no notiacble change.

 

With swith off, there is no voltage to the orange wire. with.... switch ON there is 8.9 volts on the orange. wire

 

It just looks like the pcm is not giving us any output with key ON position? is that right

 

 

sam frazer

 

 

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Ooof! It's a signal problem alright.

Set your meter to 20K ohms and check the grey/ black wire for short to ground... the same as battery negative. In a perfect world, you should see zero continuity, which will read as infinite resistance on your meter if the circuit isn't shorted somewhere (which it probably is). Infinite resistance looks the same as if you have neither test lead connected to anything.

The orange wire looks great! I figure we have a shorted 5v signal circuit somewhere between the connector and the PCM which should be pretty easy to find or just re-wire.

See if you can find any sort of continuity (short) to ground on the signal circuit. I'll be nearby....

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

As instructed with my meter connected between the grey/black wire of the sensor and chassi ground - side of battery, i measured 0.00 ohhs on the 20 kohms scale.. The only time i was able to get some resistance reading on the meter was when i loosen that connector going to the pcm module

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Just so we're on the same page, zero (0.00) ohms means you have a perfect circuit between the two test leads... a dead short.

Disconnecting the 60-way connector changed that to an open circuit? One with infinite resistance?

If that's true, maybe you have an electrical short to ground in the PCM wiring within a short distance of the controller... and the act of working with the 60-way connector corrects it. Examine the section of harness where it makes a turn and goes around the battery because it's a common source of wiring rubs on the battery case on these units. The readings you're getting don't necessarily support the idea, but it's a good place to look.

Try wiggling the harness while you check continuity between the crank sensor grey wire and ground to see if it changes. Then do a few disconnects at the PCM just to be sure that it positively becomes an open circuit just when you remove the connector.

Set your meter to 200 ohms since it's showing a healthy short to ground somewhere now. You'll have more sensitivity on that scale as you wiggle test, so maybe it would be more useful in spotting the short.

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

As instructed wiggleing the wire between sensor did not give me any change in the meter reading at the 20 kohms scale....Disconect the large connector from pcm module resulted in an open circuit

As instructed i change the meter scale to 200 ohms..with meter leads shorted togather i read 00.4 ohms.. I then connected meter between grey/black of sensor and chassi ground -side of battery and read 00.8 ohms.. wiggle the wies again did not produce any noticable change to the reading

 

sam frazer

 

 

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Sam.... I've been in this business a long, long time.... and this is the first time I've seen the 5v pull-up signal shorted within the controller itself. Does it make you feel special?

You're gonna need a different controller it appears. New, used, rebuilt... no matter, they will all plug in and run with no special programming at all. With any luck, the original Mopar part number will still be in readable condition on the tag stuck to the main body of the unit which might make identifying a replacement easier. It seems like the Mopar reman PCM from this general model and year was under $200 (with exchange), but if you have a little time you might consider scanning the internet for rebuilders or even checking out a Pull-n-Save type of self service wrecking yard if you have one in the area. They'll typically part with a PCM for $50 or less (with exchange of course). These controllers are quite dependable, so I wouldn't worry too much about installing a used one. If it runs for a full hour after installation, you should be good.

Thanks for all the hard work!
A shorted pull-up! =/

Ed
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3119
Experience: 30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
Dodgerench and 13 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

thanks very much for your time ... we have a local pick a part here in the orange county area so i will either get a used one from them or try the internet..

 

I will keep you updated .. It will be the first part of this coming week before i can get this done

Is there any thing that you can think of that we may overlook? I will get back with you with soon

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
I really can't imagine anything we haven't covered, Sam. With the total lack of a 5v signal... and seeing that the circuit is shorted to ground only through the PCM... it's definitely a problem that will keep the engine from starting. I can't rule out other issues completely but the chances of seeing something else from a single stalling/ no-start event is pretty slight. Go with the new PCM!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I am trying to find pcm module .. I will get back with you as soon as i am able to find a module install it and see if that resolve the problem..

 

thanks

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
That's fine. Something tells me it shouldn't be too tough to find one unless you have a special emission market van... something like CA, MA, NY, etc. If that's the case, any module for the 3.3 engine size and in that model year or newer (up to 95) will work fine.

It seems like I had a 94 module that Parts gave me a while back... a reman unit that had never been installed but they were gonna pitch it for some accounting reason. Weird how that stuff happens!

Good luck!
Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I found a pcm module at pick a part yard here in orange county.. As a matter of fact it came off a 93 same year as mine. I disconnected battery cables and install this used pem module..I reinstall battery cables and the sensor..My meter is now connected between the grey/black wire and ground.....

 

With the key in ON there is no noticable voltage on the meter, when i switch On or when i try to start..

 

well i cannot verify if this used pcm is good so its hard to determine my next move

 

sam frazer

 

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Something tells me that I missed something... You couldn't possibly have luck that bad.

 

Since you had a good 8v signal I assumed our powers and grounds were good. That may have been a bad assumption. Let's check a few things at the 60 way connector now. You'll find the numbering scheme cast into the plastic mold on the back (wire) side of the connector once the wire shield is removed. It's WAY handier than trying to make sense of the diagram for locations!

 

graphic

 

Let's start with the two power sources.

Pin 3 (red/ white wire) is your B+ (direct battery) feed. It should be hot at all times.

Pin 9 (dark blue) is the ignition on signal, the wakeup call to the controller.

 

Pins 11 and 12 (black/ tan) are your power grounds. They should have 10 ohms of resistance or less to battery negative.

 

Pin 6 (violet/ white) is the 5v output feed to your MAP and TPS sensors. If this circuit is shorted to ground, we'll wind up with no CE light and the PCM will act as if it's dead. Check between Pin 6 and battery negative for any continuity on something like the 2K ohm scale. It should be an open circuit with the 60-way disconnected because its return circuit is Pin 4 (sensor ground) and is disconnected at the same time.

 

Pin 7 (orange) is the 8v feed you tested already, so I don't expect to see anything wrong here. Check it anyway, testing between Pin 7 and battery negative with the ohm setting. You should have an open circuit.

 

Now test between Pin 6 and Pin 4 (sensor ground, black/ light blue). Expect to see some continuity... something like 1000 ohms or so. Anything less than 500 ohms might be trouble due to a bad (shorted) TPS or MAP.

 

And test between Pin 7 (8v feed) and Pin 4. I'd expect this to be an open circuit on at least the 2K ohm scale... perhaps even higher. Check it on 20K just for grins to see if we might have a shorted cam or crank sensor. Have the crank sensor connected for this test.

 

Back in a bit...

Ed



Edited by Dodgerench on 1/18/2010 at 8:48 PM EST
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

Here are the test results... the sensor was connected for these results

 

disconnect connector from pcm module

 

on pin 3 +12 v dc constant

 

on pin 9 +12v when key is On, key off ov

 

With meter on 2kohms scale and meter connected between pin 11 and -side of battery =.003.. same reading from pin 12 to -side of battery

 

with meter on 2kohms scale and meter connected between pin 6 and -side of battery i read an open circuit "1"

 

also pin 7 to the negative side of battery = open circuit "1"

 

Test between pin 4 and pin 6 = 3.2 kohms on the 20 k scale

 

Test between pin 4 and pin 7 = open circuit on 2kohms scale

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sam f razer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
That sounds perfect, Sam!
Does the grey/ black wire show grounding when connected to the PCM on the new one just like the last?

Check the violet/ white wire with the key on at either the TPS or MAP sensors. TPS is located right on the throttle body and is easier to reach. It's the 3-wire unit bolted directly to the open end of the throttle shaft. MAP is on the back (hidden) side of the intake upper plenum, about midway. It's also a 3-wire sensor and has shown occasional problems with grounding the 5v signal if you find the TPS to be a bit short on power. Disconnect and try again.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

good morning..... The continuty from grey/black sensor wire to -side of battery with this new pcm module is same as the old one.. i measured 00.0 on 20k ohm scale

 

With switch On, i measured 5.03 vdc on the trottle tps.voilet.white wire to -side of battery.. I disconnected the 3 wire plug from the tps sensor inorder to get good connection on that violet/white wire

 

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX the 5v like what you saw (and the 8v) are good signs that the PCM is awake and happy.

 

Did you just buy the van by any chance? I'm beginning to wonder if someone has done some creative wiring of some sort with the 5v crank sensor signal circuit.

 

Let's check the grey/ black wire from the crank sensor connector back to Pin 24 of the 60-way for continuity. Use your 200 ohm scale for this one, expecting to see 5 ohms or less if good and wired to the proper location. Make sure the wire at Pin 24 is the right color as well.

 

If it checks OK, test between Pin 24 and every other terminal on the 60-way. We might have the crank signal wire shorted within the engine harness to another circuit that's pulling the circuit down at key-on somehow... and it's likely one of these circuits that go to the 60-way or you wouldn't see the short lifted when the connector is removed.

 

I've sure seen stranger things!

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

it was raining here in the oc area so i had to wait until it stop raining to run these tests.

 

I purchase this minivan 3 years ago..This is the first time i have had this major problem with it.. I purchase it from a lady.....The papers she gave me led me to believe that i was the second owner, however i could be wrong

 

I had reinstall the sensor to the minivan on saturday but connected a wire temporarily to the sensor grey/black wire for test purposes

 

The sensor grey/black wire is not the same as the grey/black wire on pin 24 of the 60 pin connceter.. The color wire on pin 24 is grey/black but there is no resistance or continuity to sensor grey black wire..

 

with meter on 200 ohms scale i measured .00.5 from grey/black wire on sensor to pin4 blue/black wire on the 60 pin connecter

 

no reading between pin 24 and the other pins on 60 pin connecter

no reading between pin4 and the other pins on the 60 pin connecter

 

sam frazer

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

it was raining here in the oc area so i had to wait until it stop raining to run these tests.

 

I purchase this minivan 3 years ago..This is the first time i have had this major problem with it.. I purchase it from a lady.....The papers she gave me led me to believe that i was the second owner, however i could be wrong

 

I had reinstall the sensor to the minivan on saturday but connected a wire temporarily to the sensor grey/black wire for test purposes

 

The sensor grey/black wire is not the same as the grey/black wire on pin 24 of the 60 pin connceter.. The color wire on pin 24 is grey/black but there is no resistance or continuity to sensor grey black wire..

 

with meter on 200 ohms scale i measured .00.5 from grey/black wire on sensor to pin4 blue/black wire on the 60 pin connecter

 

no reading between pin 24 and the other pins on 60 pin connecter

no reading between pin4 and the other pins on the 60 pin connecter

 

sam frazer



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Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX think the big part of my confusion might be solved at least! Apparently the wire colors have degraded enough at the crank connector connector that you may be testing the sensor ground (black/ light blue) thinking it's the crank sensor signal wire. Your continuity tests definitely support a theory that either someone swapped some wires around on you or we're just testing the wrong circuit.

 

Here's what the connector should look like...

 

graphic

 

Recheck your wire locations and check to see if you might find a 5v signal on one of the three wires at the crank sensor connector. They should read 8v, 5v and ground.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I have been looking for this 5v at the sensor for quite some time and for sure the it was there on the grey/black wire.. I just misread it..

I disconnected the sensor from the minivan.. I also disconnect the sensor at the 3 wire

connector .. Using the picture that you sent me this morning as a guide with the key ON i measured 9 v to orange wire at the 3wire connector, i also measured 5v at the grey/black at the 3 wire connector , the other wire black/blue is going to pin 4 of the 60 pin connector, this wire goes to ground

 

This is the first time i made any measurement to the grey /black wire on female side of the 3 pin connector. It was always understood that if there were voltages... on one side of the connector it would show up on the other side of the connector provided the male /female connector was ok. I always make my measurements male or the sensor side of 3 pin connector and thats the reason why i misread it,..

 

Now after verifying that everything was good up to the 3 wire female connector, i then reconnect the sensor and thats where the problem exixts..I measured the 8v supply on the male--sensor side of that 3 wire connector. There is also ground on the sensor side of that 3 wire connector, but when run the key to ON the grey/black wire on the male-- sensor side of the 3 wire connector will only vary a few millivolts to about 15 millivolts.. It will not go near 4 or 5 volts level.. I tried it several times just to make sure i did not missed it, and its not there.. I dont know if my meter is not sensative enough to sense it.. From what i see when the key is switched ON that 5v will not change by more than a few millivolyts...The sensor looks like the suspect but its only a guess

 

sam frazer,

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

We have heen looking for the 5v signal at the sensor and to my surprise the 5v was right there where it was supose to be..i had not checked the grey/black wire on the female side of the 3 wire connector

 

I disconnected the sensor from the minivan.. I also disconnect the sensor at the 3 wire

connector .. Using the picture that you sent me this morning as a guide with the key ON i measured 9 v to orange wire at the 3wire connector, i also measured 5v at the grey/black at the 3 wire connector , the other wire black/blue is going to pin 4 of the 60 pin connector, this wire goes to ground

 

This is the first time i made any measurement to the grey /black wire on female side of the 3 pin connector. It was always understood that if there were voltages... on one side of the connector it would show up on the other side of the connector provided the male /female connector was ok. I always make my measurements male or the sensor side of 3 pin connector and thats the reason why i misread it,..

 

Now after verifying that everything was good up to the 3 wire female connector, i then reconnect the sensor and thats where the problem exixts..I measured the 8v supply on the male--sensor side of that 3 wire connector. There is also ground on the sensor side of that 3 wire connector, but when run the key to ON the grey/black wire on the male-- sensor side of the 3 wire connector will only vary a few millivolts to about 15 millivolts.. It will not go near 4 or 5 volts level.. I tried it several times just to make sure i did not missed it, and its not there.. I dont know if my meter is not sensative enough to sense it.. From what i see when the key is switched ON that 5v will not change by more than a few millivolyts...The sensor looks like the suspect but its only a guess

 

sam frazer,

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Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Hi Sam, sorry I missed you last night.

The sensor might be doing what it's supposed to but it depends on engine position. Its job is to alternately ground the 5v (like you see) and release the ground depending what the tip of the sensor sees against the transmission's flexplate tone wheel.

Try bumping the engine briefly with the starter to watch for a change to 5v. If it doesn't seem to show anything but what amounts to 0v, remove the sensor for an easy test.

With the sensor removed from the trans, connect it and measure your 5v circuit to see what it's giving you. Then pass a screwdriver tip (or anything steel) past the tip of the sensor while watching the meter for a change. If this doesn't cause any sort of change, you've got a bad sensor at that point.

When installing (or reinstalling) a crank or cam sensor on these engines, you need to space the sensor about .035" from the tone wheel for proper operating clearance. This is done using a paper spacer that your local Dodge dealer should have on hand and costs a ridiculous $8 or so. It's nothing more than green colored cardboard with a sticky back to hold it in place on the sensor until installed.... at which time the tone wheel/ flexplate will just knock it off once running again. Two layers of matchbook cover and some Elmer's will do about the same thing in a pinch.

If you do wind up needing a new crank sensor, pick up a factory unit if at all possible. I had an aftermarket unit at work not too long ago that would break up at speeds over 3000 RPM. The crank sensor was new, but wasn't factory... an OEM unit fixed it right up. I see problems with aftermarket sensors online almost every day on the iATN (international automotive technician network) site.

It sounds like we might be burnin gas today!
Good luck, Sam!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I got your response.. Its been raining here in the OC area of california.. I dont know where you are but yesturday the flood gates open up and it seems like it would not stop raining.. I could not get much done because the vehicle is on the outside.

 

I was however able to run the test you sugested... I only got 12 to 14 mv on the male side of the grey/black wire of the 3 wire connector when i used the starter to bump I tried it in park and in netural several times it would not get above 15 mv.....

 

As soon as the rain stops i will be able to complete the test....I will get back with you asap

 

sam frazer

 

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I got your response.. Its been raining here in the OC area of california.. I dont know where you are but yesturday the flood gates open up and it seems like it would not stop raining.. I could not get much done because the vehicle is on the outside.

 

I was however able to run the test you sugested... I only got 12 to 14 mv on the male side of the grey/black wire of the 3 wire connector when i used the starter to bump I tried it in park and in netural several times it would not get above 15 mv.....

 

As soon as the rain stops i will be able to complete the test....I will get back with you asap

 

sam frazer

 

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

I'm in the Denver area and the skies are off-n-on clear today. It's just as well because we don't get rain this time of year... it's more like something you have to shovel.

 

That's all good. I'm not going anywhere and unless the van floats off... neither are you. We work on things as time permits here on JA.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

The rain stops here in the OC area of california.. I dont know if you work on the weekend but i was able to complete the necessary tests yeaturday and today.

 

I just could not get any voltage above 20 mv dc on the grey/black wire on the male side of the 3 wire connecter wheather the the sensor was connected to the tranmission or not

 

I therefore located a new one at my local autozone (oem) with a 1 year guarantee.. I installed it and on my second try the minivan started up.. It ran for about 15-20 seconds then it shut off... I tried to start again but it will not start..I thaught it was flooded so i checked each spark plug and spark plugs are ok.. They have fuel on them enough for this thing to fire but they are not flooded...

 

I disconnected spark plug #1 fron spark plug and held it close to chassi ground then try to crank... I am getting a weak spark.. I then took the battery out and have my local autozone put 1 hour charge on it but my spark at #1 is still weak..

 

Thats it for now .. I want to go back and recheck and make sure i did not missed any

thing

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Dang... so close!

I'm surprised you could get it running or that you have any spark at all with no real voltage at the signal circuit, Sam. It's beginning to make me wonder if you might have a basic problem with power or ground supply to the PCM.

If possible, rig up a load test device for checking power and ground with the 60-way disconnected. My preference is to use a headlamp or fog lamp bulb because they draw a hefty 4 amps or so and the light output is a very good indicator for overall health of the circuit you're testing. If it blinds you... checks OK.

Connect one side of the bulb to battery negative, then touch the other wire to Pin 3 (battery direct feed) and Pin 9 (ignition switch feed).

Then swap the connection you made to battery negative to battery positive for testing the ground circuits, which are Pins 11 and 12 (both colored black/ tan).

Weak spark also could mean poor output from the autoshutdown (ASD) relay, so let's try load testing the dark green/ black wire at the coil pack in the same way. The only difference will be that you have to have the relay energized, which will happen for only a brief moment (1 second) at key-on. You may need a helper for that one.

By the way, ASD isn't powered up if you happen to be in flash test mode. If you see the CE light flashing as you turn the key on, it's not gonna happen. It's looking for a crank signal before it will exit that mode, or you could just do a quick battery disconnect since we're not sure if we're getting a crank signal.

Since you haven't been able to locate a short or open circuit in the grey/ black wire, I'm wondering if your meter might be playing tricks on you. Locate the cam sensor which is plunked into the top of the timing cover just to the rear of the passenger side engine mount. Disconnect it and check the tan/ yellow wire for its signal, which should also be 5.0 volts.

The cam sensor pigtail has a habit of wandering out into the belt area and getting cut by the way. Examine it closely for any signs of abrasion or other damage.

Glad to hear you're drying out! Is "OC" Oregon-California?

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

It so happened that i had a loose lamp that i had here for years ... It came in handy.

 

As you instructed, with pcm connector disconnected the lamp lit up when connected connected between -side of battery and p3.. I connected pcm connecter. with switch ON the lamp lit up when connected between -side of battery and p9

 

Switch ON lamp lit up when connected between +battery and p11....lamp also lit up when connected between +battery and p12

 

I had a friend switch to the ON position while i monitored the signal at the coil Pack. Well with lamp connected fron -side of battery to green/black wire it worked exactly the way you explained. for a short moment the lamp lit up then went out

 

I could not measure from coil pack wire to p11 and p12 because it started to rain again..

 

I disconnected the wire from the cam sensor. with key ON i measured from -side of battery to tan/yellow and got 5v dc.....Also measured 9vdc on the orange wire on that same 3 wire connector.. the 3rd wire is ground

I reconnected the cam sensor and rechecked the tan yellow wire with switch ON it now measure about 2.5 vdc..The installation on the orange wire looks pretty bad. I will have to repair it later on but for now i have it secured where it is not affecting the other 2 wires next to it..I check all the wires in that area and everything looks good

 

T^owards the end just before calling it a day i tried to start it.. IT started up on the 3rd try, then it run for about 30 seconds and shut off.... I tried it again, it started up again run fro 20 seconds then shut off again.....It started up and shutoff 4 seperate times..

 

 

sam frazer

 

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Thanks, Sam. That pretty much settles it... there's some sort of harness issue (or terminal problem at the 60-way) that's causing your problem. We need to find out where the 5v signal from the PCM to the crank sensor is going. It might involve cutting a wire to measure it closer to the controller.

Since we haven't been able to locate a short to ground or to any other circuit for the 5v feed, we'll need to find out if it's actually leaving the PCM intact (and being shorted) or it never leaves the PCM. Cutting the wire within a foot or so of the 60-way will settle the issue of outside influences.

Locate the grey-black wire in a convenient spot to cut/ repair it and give it a whack. Retest. If you see 5v now, it means the harness has a short and we can just run another wire out to it.

No 5v means the 60-way has terminal connection issues... either a loose fit to the PCM or a break which is unlikely since you've already confirmed continuity to the controller. It's not something I like to do, but separating one end of the circuit from the other will often tell us where the problem lies.

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Good day, I cut grey/black wire pin 24 close to 60 pin connector as instructed.. With key ON and meter connected between the 60 pin connector side and -side of the battery i measured 5vdc .. I measured a bout 15 millivolts on the harness side of the cut grey/black . wire.

 

I reconnect the cut wire and measured 15 mv to -side of battery

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

That looks like your problem, Sam.... you've got a short in the harness somewhere. If you don't feel like peeling the whole thing apart, just run a new wire from the PCM to the crank sensor connector to bypass the wire that's giving us trouble. The new wire needs to be weather-sealed at both splice points using a shrink tube over the solder joint to keep water out. Sensitive circuits like this don't need any weather helper lol!

 

I'm not sure where you'll find the shrink tube I'm talking about, but your local Dodge/ Chrysler/ Jeep dealer will have some even if Ace Hardware or a Big Box hardware store doesn't. You'll need about 4" of shrink tube (total) to do both repairs.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

The skies here in the OC opens up again and i have not being able to get this job completed.

I found some shrink wrap at our local electronic parts store. I have decided to run a new wire .. So far i cut the grey/black wire at the sensor and run the new wire from pin24 of the 60 pin connector to the sensor..

 

I tried to start it but battery went down again due to several tests that were performed on sunday..I took the battery back to autozone and had it recharged but so far today the weather has the upper hand .. I will let you know results as soon as wheather permits me to run remaining tests

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
That's fine, Sam! I can't expect a guy to work in a scuba suit for Pete's sake!
My feeling is that this is gonna go pretty quick once you get a chance out under the hood. We've covered things pretty well so I expect you to be burnin' gas very soon!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

How are you, Well we are drying out again, rain stops yesturday.. They said it will be raining againnext week .

 

I made the repairs you recommended per your last instructions. I cut that gery/black wire at the 60 pin connector .. I also cut the grey/black wire at the female side of 3 wire

sensor connector .. I then ran a new wire from the 60 pin connector down to the 3 wire

female sensor connector.

 

One thing i notice, with the key ON i got 0volts at pin 24 of the 60 pin connector with the new wire connected,, but when i disconnecte d the new wire pin24 of the 60 pin connector measures 5v again.

This does not look right ..I should have 5v dc with the new wire connected with key ON and its not there.. is it the sensor that is doing that?

 

 

Well the problem remains, after several tries it start up then shut off again.

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
It's normal for the 5v feed to alternately read 5v or 0v depending on crank sensor position, Sam. If it never reads 5v no matter what as the engine is rotated, I'd expect the problem to be (yet another) bad crank sensor or a very loose connection at the Pin 24 terminal in your 60-way.

Strike that. It's gotta be the sensor because disconnecting the wire out at the sensor is the same thing as having a properly-working crank sensor. Its job is to ground and NOT ground the 5v... so if connection to the sensor causes a perpetual 0v condition, it's a bad sensor.

Make sure the 5v stays intact when connected at the crank sensor connector, but with the sensor disconnected. That brings your feed all the way to the crank signal terminal of the sensor connector and anything that happens after that is being done by the crank sensor itself.

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

How are you .. I disconnected the sensor from the minivan again and test it outside as you instructed earlier.. Dont know why it was not switching back before but i clean things up and made it tight. Now i can see the switching from +- 5v at pin 24 of the 60 pin conn when i try to start.

I reconnect it to the transmission and now works as you described earlier

.

It start up 1 time and shut off again....I am not getting any spark or very little spark.. I remove spark plug wire #1 and hold it close to chassi ground with very little spark

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Weak spark isn't usually a cam or crank sensor problem. If the signal is good enough to produce spark at all, you're usually good in that department.

 

I'd be interested to see if your green/ black wire at the coil pack shows the same voltage as battery when the engine runs or you're trying to start it. It should be pretty close!

 

If in doubt, try running a jumper wire from battery positive all the way to the green/ black wire at your coil pack... and see if that makes the difference.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

I got 10v at the green/black wire at coil pack when trying to start but it will not start Dont know if it flooded since i've tried to start so many times

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

That sounds pretty close for system voltage while cranking the engine. If it compares within a half-volt to what you see right at the battery, it should be OK.

 

So the other side of weak spark might be a weak ground at the PCM... Pins 11 and 12 I think it was. If you were to pierce either one of those wires to get a reading straight from the ground circuit, you should see little to no voltage present if the ground is good. If not, you'll see some voltage accumulate. If you see more than 1v on the ground circuit, it's giving you problems that are bad enough that it can't properly ground the coil pack to produce spark... and possibly a few other things.

 

You're right about the possibility of being flooded. Feel free to use wide open throttle when cranking if you feel there's a good chance of the spark plugs floating a bit. This will shut the injection off and increase airflow through the engine to clear it.

 

Check those ground out under actual operating (cranking) conditions if possible and let me know what you find.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I pierce into those 2 ground wires and connected my volt meter between the ground wires at the pcm and - side of battery. I measured approximately 13 millivolts with key ON..... I try to start with no noticable change..

 

I will pull those spark plugs again tomorrow to see if they are wet..

 

One thing we have not check from the out set is the timing.. How would i go about checking TDC on #1 .and on all the other valves..how can i tell if it jump timing? I am interested in rotating the crankshaft and try to see if the timing is right.....might have to pull valve cover but thats the only thing left to check..

with your instructions i will be able to complete this task

 

 

sam frazer

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I pierce into those 2 ground wires and connected my volt meter between the ground wires at the pcm and - side of battery. I measured approximately 13 millivolts with key ON..... I try to start with no noticable change..

 

I will pull those spark plugs again tomorrow to see if they are wet..

 

One thing we have not check from the out set is the timing.. How would i go about checking TDC on #1 .and on all the other valves..how can i tell if it jump timing? I am interested in rotating the crankshaft and try to see if the timing is right.....might have to pull valve cover but thats the only thing left to check..

with your instructions i will be able to complete this task

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

'Morning, Sam.

I'll see what I can find, but something tells me removal of the timing cover will be needed because there aren't any external TDC markings on the crankshaft balancer or anything.

 

The 3.3/ 3.8 timing chains are super-reliable on these units, sometimes going a half million miles with nothing more than a little clatter... but the flexplates aren't always so lucky. It's not a common thing on the pre-96 models to have a cracked flexplate, but if you're suspecting a timing problem, that might be where it sits.

 

Crankshaft timing is taken from cutouts on the flexplate as it whizzes past the crank sensor as you already know. If the flexplate were to fracture, it would happen right around the bolt attachment area which allows the entire outer portion of the flexplate to shift slightly at first to the retard direction. Most will continue running for quite a while with some having issues with a <clunk> noise from the flexplate area as the engine is started and shut off, but it's not guaranteed... some are completely quiet as they fracture, shift and re-stick. Those quiet units are usually the ones that keep driving, albeit with reduced performance because they don't have the constant wear-and-tear associated with loose pieces banging on one another.

 

Do you recall a noisy starter engagement or a clunk as the engine is shut down?

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

good wednesday morning.. I took some time to review your last communication with regards XXXXX XXXXX .. since you saying pre 1996 are pretty durable i will leave it at that and wont go there.. I just had a hunch that it might be timing because we had not physically checked it....O by the way i went down to my library to look at the instructions for timing chain cover removal and believe you me its quite a job to remove this thing, so for now i am not going there

 

You ask about starter noise.. Yes there were some starter noise about a month.. The starter would not start at times.. I tapped on it couple of times and it did start, so about a month ago i changed it and that problem went away.

 

You ask about clunk when the engine is winding down..You know it may have happened in the past but nothing noticable that i have heard or remembered.

 

Well i am going back to double check, grounding, and some of the things that we covered to see if i missed something.. The voltage over at the coil pack was a little low. I will run that wire that you sugested a few days ago to see if that make any difference.

I will also invest in some new spark plug and spark plug wires.

 

I will get back with you after i have completed this re checking to let you know if anything changes

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Hi Sam.

Another thing I hadn't considered is the coil pack itself. While you do have three separate coils inside the unit (each fires two cylinders), the common thread between them is that they all share the same power feed... which is the green/ black wire, the ASD. I've only seen one instance of this common feed breaking within a coil, but if something happens once it can sure happen again.

 

Break out the ohm meter again, set it to 200 ohms and check between the ASD terminal at the coil pack and each of the other three terminals. Expect to see something between 0.6 ohm and 1.0 ohm if OK.

 

You could even do this test right at the PCM, which will also include the actual connections and wiring between there and the coil, which might tell us more about the entire circuit. Test between Pin 57 (poorly described as injector sense in the pinout chart) and Pins 17, 18 and 19 which are the control circuits for the individual coils. You'll see slightly more resistance with the extra wire length, but expect to see less than 5 ohms for sure.

 

If OK, try a few quick hits of the starter while listening for that loud clunk I described. The starter should be OK now, so if you hear something that sounds "loose", it may well be the flexplate.

 

See ya in a bit,

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Something is loose inside, I had an assistant try to start while i listen.. I dont hear any clunk after trying it several times i hear this funny noise ,,, something like loose metal.,, its kind of hard to describe but lets say its metal noise

 

The other tests you sugested earlier today are ok

 

Based on the noise that i heard it looks like a wise thing to see if i can get to the timing chain. cover.

 

I have seen general instruction at the library how to remove the time chain cover but it looks different from my mini van..

 

Do you know or have any instructions how to do it.` when i am in front looking down at the engine , the engine is to the left and transmission is to the right... sensor is to the right of the engine.. any instruction you have will help

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
I'm not sure that you want to go in there, Sam. Is that where you hear the noise? In the timing cover area, not the flywheel end of the engine?
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

graphic

Here's the teardown procedure in case you get the urge...

Keep in mind that this engine is an interference design, meaning the possibility of valve-to-piston contact is there if the engine is mistimed or turned without the timing chain connected. No big deal, but it's something you need to know before diving in.

 

Installation goes like this...

 

graphic

 

 

Ed

 



Edited by Dodgerench on 2/3/2010 at 11:28 PM EST
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Thanks very much for the instructions... I am going to lo way my options

 

and find out how i want to proceed .. . I may not have the time to do this work.

 

I am very surprised that we have to go thru all of this just to verify timing

 

I will get back with you

 

 

thanks very much

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
If you happen to have a compression gauge (and a still-hot battery), checking compression is a sort of good way to confirm engine timing. You're always going to jump time to the retarded (slower) side, so compression will suffer if it happens. Expect to see something below 150 psi on any cylinder sampled if the timing chain has actuallys slipped.

Problems at the flexplate won't show up on a compression test because it's only ignition timing that's affected. The engine still pumps air at the same rate as when it was built.

Expect to see 150 psi at the least with good engine timing. Cylinder wash-down from continued cranking might affect this a bit, so don't be shy about shooting a small amount of oil into any cylinder you're testing. I'm talking about 10 drops or so... not enough to substantially affect cylinder volume and by its effect... compression ratio. Add only enough to wet the cylinder walls and that's it.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Good friday morning, I was able to check 4 of those 6 cylenders and the test results appear to be telling us that the engine is performing well

 

The cylenders in front facing the radiater from right to left measure as follows

 

On first conpression stroke i measure 95 psi then build up compression to about 155 after 5 or 6 compression strokes

 

next clender 90 psi on first stroke then build up to150 psi after 6 compression strokes

next cylender 90 psi on first stroke then build up to about 160 after 6 compression strokes

next cylender on the bacl side 85 psi on first compression stroke then build up to 145 after 5 compression strokes..

 

 

I could not install the gage in the remaining cylenders ... they are hard to reach..

 

While i was doing the compression work i could not help but to notice that some of the bolts on the back side of the intake manifold appers to have something leaking between the head of the bolts and the intake manifold..I tried to tightened thembut they are on there pretty thight.. I will be home tomorrow saturday so i am going to take the intake manifold off and see if there is any leaks there.

 

One other thing do you think there may be a bad connection in the RUN position on the ignition switch? is there a way to check that

 

Another thaught, since it startup several times only to shutoff do you think that there might be a blockage in the cathaletic converter?

 

 

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

I wouldn't worry too much about the intake leak for now. Let's get it running first..

 

We did load testing at the PCM didn't we? Sorry, it's been a while and I've slept a few times since we started lol! If we did load testing with a fog or headlamp bulb on the powers and grounds at the PCM 60-way, we tested the ignition switch output. Pin 9 (?), the ignition on source is all you need to wake the controller up and make everything work. Well... that and the other power and 2 grounds. If they checked OK, the switch is also OK.

 

A completely blocked exhaust can sure kill an engine. It'll start and run a short time, get rough and quit, sometimes becoming a complete no-start afterward since you can't get exhaust out in order to get fresh air-fuel charge IN. Spark won't be affected, but who's to say that we have only one problem... ?

 

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

How are you, well it rain here again yesturday so i did not get nothing done.. It dried out a little just before the big game so i spent some time working on the minivan

 

It would not startup for me today at all, it came very close to starting up but would not start.. I thaught it might be cold weather conditions why it did not start..

 

I disconnected that flap that holds the cat converter to the engine temporerily to see if it would start up and run but i could not get it to start this time. It only back fire when the cat converter was opened temporerily..

 

Tomorrow weather permits i will be going over some of the things that we've already covered.

 

One question i have , how do i check valve clearence? can it be done with this type engine

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Valve clearance is basically zero with hydraulic lash adjusters, Sam. It doesn't mean that the valves might NOT be pumped up, causing loss of compression... but that's the clue.

If you can check compression and find it to be 150 or better, you're OK on valve lash. Severe loss of squeeze might indicate pumped up lifters, but it's not a common thing on the 3.3- 3.8 engine. To the contrary, I expect some valve clatter once it does fire up because they tend to lose a little adjustment when it's been a while since good oil pressure was seen. It won't affect engine starting, tho.

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Good day, I went back to basic today and started rechecking a few items.. I dont know how iT starT up before but at this point it appears that i am not getting fuel..

 

 

I Know that when the key is in ON and when the key is in START i should have some voltage on the output of the fuel pump relay.... If i am correct then this appears to be the problem.now.

 

I monitored the output of the fuel pump relay..When the key goes from OFF to ON the output of fuel pump relay pin87 goes to 12v for about 2 or 3 secs. then goes back to 0 v....When i ran the to the START position the output of the fuel pump relay remain at 0v +- a few millivolts.

 

Mean while the voltages on pin 86 and pin 85 are present with key ON

pin 30 has 12v all the time.

 

It looks like fuel pump relay is not staying ON long enough to get get the necessary fuel pressure to start

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Hiya Sam!

You're right that the fuel pump relay should be energized during the time when the engine is cranking, but the PCM has to see a good crank and cam signal to hold the relay in the on position. This same relay control also serves the ASD relay, so you probably have no ASD output at the same time.

 

But if you do get output on the fuel pump and ASD relays at key-on, the circuits are doing what they're supposed to. I think we're still chasing a lack of signal or out-of-sync situation.

 

If you get a chance, tap into the grey/ black wire on your 20v DC setting and lightly bump the engine around to watch for voltage switching.

 

If you do see switching, crank the engine continuously to watch the average reading on your meter, which will probably be something between 2 to 3 volts.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I monitored the output of the fuel pump and the asd with key ON.. I did it 4 times just to make sure on each relay are doing the same thing..With Key ON they both measure 12v for about 2 to 3 secs..

 

As you instructed i connected the volt meter at grey/black wire on 20v scale and slightly bump the engine....

 

The results are some what mix.....the first couple of bumps i got 0.5v then couple more bumps then it jump up to 4.0v,, bump again couple of times 1to 1.5 v,,,couple more bumps and noted .3 to 1vdc

 

So it is switching but its all over the place.

 

Let me know what you think

 

 

sam frazer

 

When i ran it continiously the meter read about .3 to .6 vdc

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

The PCM isn't going to like those numbers... it looks for something very, very close to the 0v-5v switching the crank sensor should produce.

 

I may have asked you this before (can't remember)... is your crank sensor a factory unit? I see problems all the time with aftermarket cam and crank sensors even when they're brand new. If it's not a Mopar unit, consider picking a new crank sensor up at the local Dodge Garage (or Jeep/ Chrysler). I really can't imagine why you would have erratic signals like this unless the sensor was having trouble switching like it should.

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I have been trying to locate the factory mopar unit that you recommend but no such luck as yet. The few chrystler dealership that remain in the OC area of california all tell me that they have to order it and it will take a few days prepaid.... I have not ordered one as yet but will on or before this friday..

 

A week ago my local autozone had sold me a crank sensor, after installing it the minivan started up a few times but as of late it will not start at all.. Autozone gave me a 1 year waurantee on that crank sensor so i will be returning it asap.

 

I will update you as soon as i can find the recommended part

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Sounds good, Sam!
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

I have been trying to locate the factory mopar unit that you recommend but no such luck as yet. The few chrystler dealership that remain in the OC area of california all tell me that they have to order it and it will take a few days prepaid.... I have not ordered one as yet but will on or before this friday..

 

A week ago my local autozone had sold me a crank sensor, after installing it the minivan started up a few times but as of late it will not start at all.. Autozone gave me a 1 year waurantee on that crank sensor so i will be returning it asap.

 

I will update you as soon as i can find the recommended part

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.

Swapping the aftermarket sensor for another seems like a good idea... and a no-cost option. Good luck!

 

Ed

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

Thanks for your hard work, The minivan is now running ok... As you had recommended, i took out the autozone crank sensor from the minivan and returned it because of its eratic output levels..

I then purchase a mopar sensor from chrystler dealership here in town..

 

Every time the key went form off to ON the grey/ black wire switched from 0 to 5vdc then when i ran the starter it switches back to 0 vdc..

 

however it did not start.up... The only other issue that exixts was the cam sensor... I went back to the dealership and bought a cam sensor and install it .and it started up the first time i tried it.

 

So with the cam and crank sensor installed every thing is ok now .. I am up and running....Thanks to you and your crew for all your hard work.. I will recommend you to friends and collegues..

 

O by the way, Please go ahead and debit my account that you have on file an extra $25 for all the time you spent with me in these past 3 weeks

 

 

 

Thanks again until next time

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
That's great news, Sam... and your offer of a bonus is most generous! We won't be able to debit your account unless you click the bonus button... which might be buried several posts back in our thread. I'll send this as an answer, which might open something up on your end. There's no need to accept again. :o)

Many thanks and...
Cheers!!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ED

 

how do i get to the bonus button

 

could not find it on this page

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Hi Sam!
I'm afraid I don't know. You might be able to find it by going back to the post where you accepted, but it's something that confuses a number of people. No worries if you can't find it.... much appreciated!

Ed
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ok

 

I will scrolll backwards and look for it .. If i cannot find it, then i will wait for next time

 

 

sam frazer

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 4 years ago.
Thanks, Sam. What a guy!

Ed

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