How JustAnswer Works:

  • Ask an Expert
    Experts are full of valuable knowledge and are ready to help with any question. Credentials confirmed by a Fortune 500 verification firm.
  • Get a Professional Answer
    Via email, text message, or notification as you wait on our site.
    Ask follow up questions if you need to.
  • 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
    Rate the answer you receive.

Ask Dodgerench Your Own Question

Dodgerench
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3120
Experience:  30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
4486286
Type Your Dodge Question Here...
Dodgerench is online now
A new question is answered every 9 seconds

93 DODGE DAKOTA: 2WD, 5.2L V8..MUFFLER..OFF.

Customer Question

RECENTLY BOUGHT A 93 DODGE DAKOTA, 2WD, 5.2L V8. RAN FINE UNTIL I INSTALLED NEW MUFFLER. NOW IT STARTS AND RUNS FOR ABOUT 3 MINUTES THE SHUTS OFF. SOMETIMES IT RESTARTS AND RUNS ABOUT A MINUTE THEN SHUTS OFF AGAIN. OFTEN WILL NOT RESTART. THEREIS NO SPARK AT PLUG AT THIS TIME. MY FIRST ATTEMPT AT A FIX WAS A NEW FUEL PUMP AND FILTER. ALSO BEEN CHECKING FOR LOOSE WIRING AROUND DISTRIBUTOR AND E.C.M. AND O2 SENSOR
Submitted: 5 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Hi DAKOTA, welcome to Just Answer!.

 

Check a couple things for me when the engine dies and won't restart..

 

Does the CHECK ENGINE lamp come on when you roll the key on? Check it first (before stalling) to be sure it works, then compare this to what you see later. It should do a 2-3 second "bulb test" at each key cycle.

 

Pull the fuel pump and ASD relays underhood and turn the key on. Test to see how many voltage sources you see under the relays (should be two). Turn the key off, see if you lose the voltage source if it's only one that you see. This will tell us which circuit (switched or B+) is disappearing. The B+ will remain whether the key is cycled or not.

 

Avoid disconnecting the battery or letting it go dead for now... we may have to check for codes in the near future.

 

Talk in a bit,

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
THANKS ED, I AM AT WORK RIGHT NOW AND NOT ABLE TO DO THESE TESTS.
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Funny... so am I!

That's all good, write when you have news.

 

Talk later!

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
HI ED, CustomerHERE DID SOME FURTHER TESTING FIRST CHECK DOES COME ON PULLED THE FUEL PUMP AND ASD RELAYS WITH KEY OFF AND FOUND ONE VOLTAGE SOURCE AT EACH RELAY WITH KEY ON FOUND TWO SOURCES UNDER ASD RELAY AND TWO AND 1/2 SOURCES UNDER FUEL PUMP RELAY. THE 1/2 SOURCE DIMMLEY LIT TEST LIGHT. NEW WRINKLE AS I DECIDED TO GO AHEAD AND START ENGINE AGAIN ANYWAYS THE ENGINE QUIT 4 TIMES AFTER 3 TO 4 MINUTES OF RUNNING BUT RESTARTED EACH TIME AFTER AND IT RAN FOR 1/2 HOUR AT WHICH TIME I SHUT IT OFF AND IT STARTED BACK UP TWICE AFTER THAT WITH NO PROBLEM.
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Thanks. The 1/2 source you found was what you'll see if you don't pull both relays at the same time... power backfeeds on the control circuit between relays because only one driver is used at the PCM. Did you leave one relay in?

 

Sorry, I'm just leaving work now and won't be back online for close to 30 minutes.

Back in a few!

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
HI ED, YES I WAS CHECKING ONE RELAY AT A TIME AND JUST AS YOU SAID I PULLED BOTH RELAYS OUT AND THE OTHER POWER SOURCE WAS NOT THERE .UPON FURTHER TESTING TODAY THESE ARE MY RESULTS. I WOULD CHECK RELAYS WHEN THE ENGINE SHUT OFF, POWER WOULD STILL BE LOCATED AT SAME LOCATIONS UNDER RELAYS. THE ENGINE WOULD REFIRE EACH TIME . THIS OCCURED SEVERAL TIMES UNTIL THE RECENT TIME WHEN IT SHUT OFF I CHECKED THE RELAYS AND NO POWER FOUND UNDER ASD RELAY AT BOTH LOCATIONS. UPON CYCLING THE KEY SWITCH POWER RETURNED TO THE ASD RELAY IN BOTH LOCATIONS THE ENGINE NOW WILL NOT FIRE. I HAVE PUT INLINE SPARK CHECKER AND HAVE NO SPARK. WILL START TRUCK IN THE MORNING AFTER IT COOLS. THANKS Customer
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.
Good work!
I think you proved there to be a basic power supply problem with the harness, something that's not all that uncommon on the Dakotas from this time period. Here's what I'd like you to do...

Locate the section of harness that runs along the same side fenderwell as your PDC fuse block. Take the PDC loose so that you can get better access to the loom and then split it apart about 6" to the rear of the PDC, looking for the red/ white B+ power feed that has a splice in that area. Here's the rough location...

graphic

The A14 splice is your direct battery feed to the two relays, the source that doesn't change if the key is cycled. Closer to the firewall, the 1-A21 splice (blue wires) is your switched power, the one that comes and goes with the key. You'd probably better check both, because neither splice are protected very well and tend to rot out over time.

The A14 is the more common problem and it connects to four locations...

The "D" fuse in your PDC, the PCM and both the ASD and fuel pump relays. Since it's a splice, you won't always have all circuits affected at the same time and I'm betting the leg that runs to the PCM is the worst one of the bunch. You caught the relay bank acting up, which is a positive sign something's goofy with the harness.

Good luck DD and let me know what you find!
Thanks,
Ed
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3120
Experience: 30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
Dodgerench and other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
HI ED, FOUND THE CONNECTIONS AND RESPLICED THEM BOTH. STILL HAVE PROBLEMS . WHAT DO YOU RECOMEND. I ALSO CLICKED ACCEPT BUTTON AND HOPED YOU GOT PAID. IF I NEED TO PUT IN ADDITION FUNDS LET ME KNOW. I ALSO REALIZE HOW DIFFICULT THIS IS TRYING TO DIAGNOSE A PROBLEM LIKE THIS .
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Shoot.

When you lost one of the feeds to the relays, I figured we had it licked! I'll put together some electrical checks to be done at the PCM 60-way connector later today and shoot 'em off to you.

 

Did you find any corrosion on those splices DD?

 

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
THEY WERE A LITTLE GREEN , BUT NOT CRUMBLING APART. BUT SINCE YOU HAVE ME LOOKING IN THIS DIRECTION I,VE SEEN OTHER WIRING THATS BEEN SPLICED AND RETAPED. THIS ISN'T GOING TO BE EASY I'M AFRAID. DO YOU TRAVEL? LOL
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Boy, sometimes I wish I could! It's one way to get out of the house I suppose lol!

 

Hang in there. Do we have a little time? I'm at work now but it looks like things will slow down after noon or so.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
THERE IS NO BIG HURRY. THIS IS NOT A PRIMARY VEHICLE AT THIS POINT. I'M AT WORK TO AND WILL COME AND GO .
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Sounds good.

Thanks!

 

Ed

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.
Hi DD. <br />There's something goofy with the site or something so I can't post the info I wanted to, but I just noticed that we hadn't checked for trouble codes yet. We can do it using the old "flash method", something not unlike Morse Code.

Roll the key from off to on three times, leaving it ON. Watch the CHECK ENGINE lamp as it does a longer than normal bulb test and then goes out. Get ready to start counting...

The flashes you will see are spaced by short and long pauses which tell you what to do.

Short pauses mean you should keep counting, where longer ones mean this digit is done and you're movin on to the next one.   All codes are binary, having two digits like 12 and 55. So if you count correctly, there should be an even number of digits and nothing left over.

Be careful with the early codes, as code 12 often becomes... "3".   I recommend repeating the test a few times to get the hang of things because a small miscount makes a huge difference in meaning.

I'll try again shortly to see if I can get the info I'd intended to send posted.

Talk shortly,
Ed
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
HEY ED, I HAD CHECKED THE CODES THIS METHOD BEFORE. UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS AFTER I HAD INSTALLED A NEW FUEL PUMP AND HAD THE BATTERY DISCONNECTED. IT ONLY SHOWED A CODE FOR LOSS OF POWER TO MEMORY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND END OF CODES. BUT I WILL TRY AGAIN , PROBLEM IS , I DISCONNECTED THE BATTERY WHILE RESPLICEING THOSE WIRES. SORRY.
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

That's right, you WOULD lose memory when that happened! But anything serious should re-set pretty quick after a few start attempts if it's a cam or crank sensor-kind-of-thing. There's no downside to checking for codes at any time, so don't be shy.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
HEY ED, JUST CHECKING BACK, I DON'T SEE MY PREVIOUS REPLY . I MIGHT NOT HAVE HIT THE REPLY BUTTON. SO JUST IN CASE I SAID I WOULD GLADLY RE CHECK THE CODES TONITE WHEN I GET HOME. YOU PROBABLY HAVE NOTICED MY COMPUTER SKILLS ARE WORSE THAN MY MECHANIC SKILLS !!
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.
LOL! I think we both know just enough about computers to be dangerous... which brings me (finally) to sending you some info for doing some pinout testing. We'll be working pretty much exclusively with the 60-way PCM connector unless something turns up goofy along the way.

graphic

There's a handy numbering guide cast into the connector mold on the back (wire) side of the unit... much easier to follow than the diagram connector.

Let's start with the power supplies to the controller.. there are only two. If at all possible, see what you can do to round up a headlamp or fog lamp bulb to jumper between these
feeds and ground to properly load test the circuit capacity. Your problem seems to be dependent upon having the engine running for a bit, which will load test the circuits in their own way. Pushing close to 4 amps through these wires, the brightness of the bulb will tell you in no uncertain terms whether things are in good shape or not. I'd give each circuit several minutes of test time to let things heat up and break down if they're gonna do it.

Be careful to avoid spreading the PCM connector terminals... look through your drill assortment to find something that JUST fits or is a little bit loose and use it for your terminal probe.

Pin 3 (red/ white wire) is the offshoot of that A14 splice you fixed. This circuit should be hot at all times.

Pin 9 (dark blue) is the other splice and is your key-on voltage source... the wakeup call to the controller.

Next are grounds, tested the same way with the bulb... just connect the other wire to battery positive.

Pins 11 and 12 (black/ tan) are both power grounds, just as important as the positive power sources. I'm VERY interested to see if these circuits can carry 4 amps for a few minutes. The grounding point for this might be the small 5/16" sheet metal screw on a double eyelet at the left front fender area. If you find it to be a weak ground, I'll sure investigate further.

There may be more testing later, but let's start with this. The remaining circuits I'd be interested in are Pins 4, 6 and 7 but they'd something you'll have to monitor in real time as the engine stalls.

If I hadn't mentioned it earlier, try manipulating the 60-way with the engine idling to see if it makes a difference in the way the engine runs. I've seen a number of these controllers with broken boards that are quite cooperative in stalling if you stress 'em just a little bit.

I just re-read a previous post where you said one of the powers sources were gone under the relays, but returned after cycling the key. That might mean the problem lies with the ignition switch or something along the ignition switch feed to the splice underhood. Give that ignition feed (Pin 9) a good long load test and don't be shy about wiggling the harnesses underhood and under the dash.

DD... your patience is much appreciated!

Ed
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE TOO, I'LL DIGEST THIS TODAY AND TRY IT TONITE AFTER WORK. LAST NITE I RETRIEVED THESE CODES. 12 27 42 55.

AND I DID IT SEVERAL TIMES TO MAKE SURE I GOT THEM RIGHT.

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

Thanks. You got some doozies there...

 

Code 27 has something to do with an injector control circuit, but we won't know more without an actual scan. As self diagnostics got more specific, the flash codes remained the same, taking on more and more alternate meanings. This code could mean an open, short or no power supplied to any or all injectors on the engine. It might be an ASD feed indication, which brings us to the next code...

 

ASD. It's also non-specific, meaning it could involve either the control or output side of the ASD circuits. But it would easily explain why you have no-starts and stalls at times.

 

Do you remember back when the power source disappeared under the relays? Was it the switched side? We're still tentatively looking for a lost power source to (at least) the ASD relay, but it could be either the B+ or the ignition feed. Conentrate on that feed especially during the load tests, taking the wiggle test all the way into the cab if needed. The bulkhead connector is also a possibility along with the switch. This portion of the ignition feed is NOT fused directly as an output, so there's really nothing besides splices and connectors to get in the way of pumping the power back under the hood.

 

The same output gets fused to other circuits through Fuses 15 and 16 later, one of which powers the key-in buzzer. That would be an easy test to see if the switched feed died at the switch... if the buzzer normally works but doesn't when the truck dies, it's a problem from the switch or from the switch back toward the battery.

 

I just noticed the red/ white B+ feed passes through a black 10-way connector to the rear of the battery on its way to the PCM. You might check this connector for acid damage or whatever...

 

Ed

 

 

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
THE ONE TIME I LOST POWER TO THE ASD RELAY IT WAS AT BOTH POINTS. HAVEN'T CAUGHT IT AGAIN. LAST NITE AFTER RETRIEVING CODES I AGAIN STARTED TRUCK , RAN ABOUT 5 MIN. WHEN IT QUIT I WOULD PULL THOSE TWO RELAYS CHECK FOR POWER . THEY WOULD SHOW POWER AT BOTH SPOTS... IWOULD THEN TURN KEY OFF AND CYLE BACK ON AND START TRUCK. DID THIS ABOUT 4 TIMES. EACH TIME CHECK ING UNDER THE RELAYS. SAME RESULTS.I HAVE A SNAP-ON FUEL INJECTION GUAGE. WOULD THIS BE ANY BENEFIT TO HAVE IT HOOKED UP. IF SO WILL NEED DIRECTIONS TO DO SO.
Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

This is one occasion I'm not sure a pressure gauge would be useful! But if you decide to do it anyway, you'll find a threaded test port on the left side (driver's side) fuel rail that you screw the tester into. You'll probably need to find the right adapter, but other than that, it's plug-n-play.

 

Somehow, I can't imagine something that would take both power sources out at the same time. Would it be possible that your test light lost its ground on that one test? I ask, because the next phase of testing will be something other than the powers and grounds... moving on to the 5 and 8v circuits on the engine.

 

Those two codes you just got still worry me a bit... the common thread between the two might be the ASD relay itself, so let's swap another relay into that position to see if it makes any difference. Something like A/C compressor clutch works well for this.

 

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.

YES.IT WOULD BE EXTREMLY POSSIBLE SOMETHING LIKE WOULD OCCUR.IN MY HASTE.ESPECIALLY SINCE IT HASN'T RESURFACED AGAIN. I WILL TRY CHANGING THE ASD RELAY FOR THE AC CLUTCH RELAY. I DO KNOW I'VE PAID CLOSE ATTENTION TO PUTTING THE SAME RELAY IN SAME SPOT.

HEY ED FORGOT TO FINISH THIS LAST NITE DUE TO WORK INTERVENED, I HATE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS . ANY WAY DIDN'T GET TO ANYTHING YET.

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

No problem. We've got all summer!

 

Talk later DD!

Ed

Customer: replied 5 years ago.

HEY ED , BACK AGAIN. I SWITCHED OUT THE ASD RELAY WITH THE AC RELAY. DIDN'T HELP. I ALSO TESTED THOSE CIRCUITS THEY HELD A STRONG LIGHT FROM A QUARTZ HALOGIN FOG LAMP FOR 3 TO 4 MIN. EACH. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT THE "HANDY NUMBERING GUIDE CAST INTO THE CONNECTOR MOLD" YOU REFER TO, COULDN'T LOCATE THAT.I DO HOPE THAT WHAT YOU CALL A P.C.M IS THE SAME AS THE SINGLE MODULE ENGINE CONTROL.THAT HAYNES REFERS TO. IF NOT I TESTED THE WRONG PLUG, BUT LOOKED JUST LIKE THE PICTURE YOU SENT. BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW HOW HOT THAT LITTLE DRILL BIT GETS. LOST THE FIRST ONE AFTER A QUICK INSPECTION .LOL.

Expert:  Dodgerench replied 5 years ago.

The drill bit went flying did it? Ouch!

The numbering will be on the back (or wire) side of the connector but is at the start and end of the rows, leaving you to count the individual wires. Shine a light in there... you'll see 'em.

 

It sounds like your powers and grounds are good if they stayed bright for that long. I'll have to come back and review a few things we talked about in a while. I'm at work right now...

 

Talk in a bit,

Ed

JustAnswer in the News:

 
 
 
Ask-a-doc Web sites: If you've got a quick question, you can try to get an answer from sites that say they have various specialists on hand to give quick answers... Justanswer.com.
JustAnswer.com...has seen a spike since October in legal questions from readers about layoffs, unemployment and severance.
Web sites like justanswer.com/legal
...leave nothing to chance.
Traffic on JustAnswer rose 14 percent...and had nearly 400,000 page views in 30 days...inquiries related to stress, high blood pressure, drinking and heart pain jumped 33 percent.
Tory Johnson, GMA Workplace Contributor, discusses work-from-home jobs, such as JustAnswer in which verified Experts answer people’s questions.
I will tell you that...the things you have to go through to be an Expert are quite rigorous.
 
 
 

What Customers are Saying:

 
 
 
  • I AM VERY GLAD THAT I TOOK A CHANCE ON YOUR PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS. I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN REPLACING THE FUEL PUMP. MY TRUCK RUNS LIKE A CLOCK. IT RUNS LIKE THE DAY I BOUGHT IT. NO LUNGING FORWARD, THE TURBO REACTS THE SECOND I STOMP ON THE GAS, AND IT HAS A LOT MORE POWER AND EVEN SOUNDS BETTER TO ME. IT SAVED ABOUT $500.00 BY DOING THE WORK MYSELF. I GIVE YOU ALL THE CREDIT FOR YOUR DIAGNOSING THE PROBLEM, JUST FROM THE SYMPTONS I GAVE YOU OVER THE e MAIL. I WILL USE YOUR WEB SITE AGAIN AND REFER MY FRIENDS. THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE HELP. TOM WHITTAKER USA
< Last | Next >
  • I AM VERY GLAD THAT I TOOK A CHANCE ON YOUR PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS. I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN REPLACING THE FUEL PUMP. MY TRUCK RUNS LIKE A CLOCK. IT RUNS LIKE THE DAY I BOUGHT IT. NO LUNGING FORWARD, THE TURBO REACTS THE SECOND I STOMP ON THE GAS, AND IT HAS A LOT MORE POWER AND EVEN SOUNDS BETTER TO ME. IT SAVED ABOUT $500.00 BY DOING THE WORK MYSELF. I GIVE YOU ALL THE CREDIT FOR YOUR DIAGNOSING THE PROBLEM, JUST FROM THE SYMPTONS I GAVE YOU OVER THE e MAIL. I WILL USE YOUR WEB SITE AGAIN AND REFER MY FRIENDS. THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE HELP. TOM WHITTAKER USA
  • Just a quick line to tell you how pleased I am to have my brakes working properly after all this time. Your answer was what I needed. I would certainly recommend you highly. God bless! Rev. Jerry Baysinger Holts Summit, Mo
  • I recently asked a question about my 2005 dodge ram, and I just wanted to let my Expert know that he hit the nail squarely on the head with his answer. I wanted to thank him again. Greg Pittsburgh, PA
  • Just a quick line to tell you how pleased I am to have my brakes working properly after all this time. Your answer was what I needed. I would certainly recommend you highly. God bless! Jerry Holts Summit, MO
  • I was skeptical at first but thought I'd give it a try. I was pleasantly surprised. Your site actually is a quality service that I would recommend to others in a heartbeat. Stan Sayre, PA
  • Wonderful service, prompt, efficient, and accurate. Couldn't have asked for more. I cannot thank you enough for your help. Mary C. Freshfield, Liverpool, UK
  • This expert is wonderful. They truly know what they are talking about, and they actually care about you. They really helped put my nerves at ease. Thank you so much!!!! Alex Los Angeles, CA
 
 
 

Meet The Experts:

 
 
 
  • Jerry

    Master Mechanic

    Satisfied Customers:

    1227
    ASE Master tech, 30 years exp. troubleshooter, driveability tech
< Last | Next >
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/SU/supermechanic/2013-8-23_03546_500.64x64.jpg Jerry's Avatar

    Jerry

    Master Mechanic

    Satisfied Customers:

    1227
    ASE Master tech, 30 years exp. troubleshooter, driveability tech
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/MO/MoparCertified/2012-6-7_4142_mechanic.64x64.jpg Mopar Certified's Avatar

    Mopar Certified

    Dodge Technician

    Satisfied Customers:

    5813
    24 Year Chrysler/Dodge Certified Specialist
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jeep10000/2008-9-18_222938_192601.jpg Chris's Avatar

    Chris

    Shop Foreman

    Satisfied Customers:

    4041
    ASE and Chrysler Certified Master Tech
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/ke4ich/2009-08-12_212931_DSC02211.JPG moparfl's Avatar

    moparfl

    ASE Certified Technician

    Satisfied Customers:

    3285
    ASE Master Tech Gold level Chrysler Status 30 years dealership exp
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/DO/dodgerench/2012-8-1_1142_IMG3173.64x64.JPG Dodgerench's Avatar

    Dodgerench

    ASE Certified Technician

    Satisfied Customers:

    2480
    30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/RO/rodcuda/2011-7-25_224114_Donhoff1.64x64.JPG Neal's Avatar

    Neal

    Dodge Mechanic

    Satisfied Customers:

    1870
    30 years experience in Dodge Chrysler and Plymouth
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/tsmodie/2009-6-10_144056_tim.jpg Tim Mohr's Avatar

    Tim Mohr

    ASE MASTER TECH

    Satisfied Customers:

    1664
    30 YRS EXPERIENCE, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, GAS AND DEISEL