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HWeaver184
HWeaver184, Dodge Mechanic
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 220
Experience:  ASE certified all 9 fields, specialize in diesel, trans, drivability. With chrysler 4yrs
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We have a 2001 dodge ram 2500 4x4 cummins 5.9L Diesel Vin 6.

Customer Question

We have a 2001 dodge ram 2500 4x4 cummins 5.9L Diesel Vin 6. It stalls, coughs/sputters while driving, will start and stall, hard start (hot or cold). It has the transfer pump recall completed, where the new pump is installed in the fuel tank. We tried a used ECM, a new ECM that was reflashed by Dodge x2, and four new injection pumps have been installed. Fuel flow has been tested, 1.3L (45 oz) in the 25 second cycle. the computer does not produce any codes. We never lose power or ground to the fuel pump control module, ASD relay, or fuel system relay. The local dealers and diesel shops are stumped, do you have any suggestions?
Submitted: 5 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
it always runs really bad and smokes like crazy right? They have changed multiple pumps and everything else and never helps out? One thing i have run into that took me a solid week to find was a sheered off timing keyway. Whoever is looking at the truck needs to pull # XXXXX injector out and manually move the crankshaft up to top dead center by putting a rod down the injector tube to see when the rod reaches the highest point on the piston. Now look at the timing marks on the injection pump gear and see where its sitting at. Most likely it is going to be off one direction if this is it. Also if it is off one direction, i would pull the front cover and look at the crank key that keys the timing gear on the crank and see if the slot on the gear is not in the right position as if it rotated on the crank. Also pay attention to the injection pump key way . What you are describing is sounding like a timing problem and this part is where you will have that problem if the injection pump isnt bad.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

OK, I can give more info, the truck doesn't run bad once running, about 10-15 minutes into a drive it will start to buck and cough occasionally. It only smokes when it stalls. When it is cold, it will be hard to start, but once started, runs OK until it starts to buck. I t will buck a dozen times, then smarten up for 5 minutes, then it will stall whenever you try a hard acceleration, even in neutral. Then it can run fine for a bit, then start to stall. It will do a hard start, with black smoke on startup, 5-10 times in a row, then run fine, idle fine to get back to the shop. This wa my test drive yesterday with all the monitoring stuff on it. We had checked the timing key on the pump when we installed the first reman pump on it, but never the crank key. You state it "always runs bad" but this one will run poorly with one symptom, then run OK, then later have another symptom, then run OK again, and so on. It is never the same thing all the time. And watching the datastream (which seems to be quite limited) on our OTC Genesys scanner never shows anything, no codes are set, we did have a P1689, loss of communication b/t ecm and fuel inj. pump.

Let me know what other info could help you help me- thanks, Jack

Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.

the code you just put down is one of the 5 codes that set when the electronics fail in the injection pump. Are you getting injection pumps from the same place every time? Ive had as many as 4 pumps myself bad out of the box. A couple of them wouldnt even start the truck. The code can be caused from a wiring problem between the ecm and the pump module on the pump. The reason i said about the pumps is because the pump isnt whats failing its the box on the pump. Here is a schematic for the pump. Pay really close attention to the data link circuits, this is where the code is concentrated on.

 

This should be all the diagrams you will need

 

ENGINE CONTROL MODULE (DIESEL) - 50 WAY

CAVCIRCUITFUNCTION
1H104 18BR/ORIDLE VALIDATION SWITCH NO. 1
2K244 20YL/DBCUMMINS BUS (+)
3K6 18VT/WT5V SUPPLY
4K14 18BK/DBSENSOR GROUND
5F18 18LG/BKFUSED IGNITION SWITCH OUTPUT (RUN-START)
6G60 18GY/BKENGINE OIL PRESSURE SENSOR SIGNAL
7K21 18BK/RDINTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR SIGNAL
8G12 18GY/RDMANIFOLD AIR PRESSURE SENSOR SIGNAL
9--
10K7 18OR5V SUPPLY
11K104 18BK/LBSENSOR GROUND
12K246 20YL/DGCUMMINS BUS (-)
13K242 20WTDATA LINK (+) FUEL INJECTION PUMP
14K2 18TN/BKENGINE COOLANT TEMPERATURE SENSOR SIGNAL
15K135 18YL/WTTRANSFER PUMP SUPPLY
16H105 18LG/DBIDLE VALIDATION SWITCH NO. 2
17K124 18GYCAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
18K48 18DGFUEL INJECTION PUMP SYNC SIGNAL
19--
20--
21K1 18DG/RDWATER IN FUEL SENSOR SIGNAL
22V37 18RD/LGSPEED CONTROL SWITCH SIGNAL
23K240 20BKDATA LINK (-) FUEL INJECTOR PUMP
24V32 18YL/RDBRAKE SWITCH SENSE
25H102 18LB/BKACCELERATOR PEDAL POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
26G113 18ORPTO SWITCH SENSE
27--
28K22 18OR/DBACCELERATOR PEDAL POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
29S21 18YL/BKAIR INTAKE HEATER RELAY NO.1
30Z12 18BK/TNGROUND
31H101 18DB/WTACCELERATOR PEDAL POSITION SENSOR SUPPLY
32H103 18BK/YLACCELERATOR PEDAL POSITION SENSOR GROUND
33K45 18LB/RDFUEL SHUT-OFF SIGNAL
34K44 18VT/ORLOW IDLE SELECT
35K135 18YL/WTTRANSFER PUMP SUPPLY
36K131 18BR/WTFUEL INJECTOR PUMP RELAY CONTROL
37G85 18OR/BKWAIT-TO-START WARNING INDICATOR DRIVER
38D21 18PK/DBSCI TRANSMIT
39D20 18DGSCI RECEIVE
40D2 18WT/BKCCD BUS (-)
41D1 18VT/BRCCD BUS (+)
42K247 20DBCUMMINS BUS SHIELD
43G7 18WT/ORVEHICLE SPEED SENSOR SIGNAL
44K243 20OR/BRDATA LINK SHIELD FUEL INJECTOR PUMP
45K24 18GY/BKCRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR SIGNAL
46--
47S22 18OR/BKAIR INTAKE HEATER RELAY CONTROL NO. 2
48A14 18RD/WTFUSED B(+)
49Z12 18BK/TNGROUND
50A14 18RD/WTFUSED B(+)

 

 

 

FUEL INJECTION PUMP (DIESEL) - 9 WAY

CAVCIRCUITFUNCTION
1K240 20BKDATA LINK (-) FUEL INJECTION PUMP
2K242 20WTDATA LINK (+) FUEL INJECTION PUMP
3--
4K44 18VT/ORLOW IDLE SELECT
5K45 18LB/RDFUEL SHUT-OFF SIGNAL
6Z12 14BK/TNGROUND
7A40 14RD/LGFUEL PUMP RELAY OUTPUT
8K48 18DGFUEL INJECTION PUMP SYNC SIGNAL
9--

 

 

8154af4c

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Hi again- we installed a labscope on the APPS as per the last chrysler tech that worked on it, I could make the truck fail @ 1.7 VDC ascending or descending, it would sputter or fart and stall. I could make it falter, rev a little further past that point, and run fine, and drop the revs and come back down and make it fail again. So then we were 95% sure the APPS is bad- then we got one from customer's buddies' truck (same year except std instead of automatic) plugged the loaner in, truck ran absolutely PERFECT. So we ordered a new APPS from dealer (they had it in stock) bolted it on, truck would not even start. I looked, there is a prcoedure to learn the new sensor. (turn key on, no start, slowly press pedal to floor, slowly release) TRied that , no luck. Spoke to dealer. they said disconnect battteries for minimum 5 minutes (I did 15) and they have had to sometimes try 2-3 times to reprogram. I did the slow pedal push 5-6 times now, the truck will start and idle now, 9 times out of ten will rev when the throttle is jabbed quick, but once in a while will stall on a quick accel. Talked to Taylor Auto Tech line, he said there is an APP learn mode on the Chrysler DRB II to learn it, any suggestions?
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
Thats kind of odd that they say that about a learn mode for the app sensor. Ive put on atleast 30 of these sensors and all i did was key on engine off and slowly press accelerator to floor and let off quick after i disconnected battery and they all worked like a charm after the install. Now on the older 12 valve trucks, yes you did have to have a drb2 to set the minimum TPS voltage. Now on the 24 valve cummins engines there isnt any kind of relearn like that. The whole snaping the throttle for the app sensor is for the ECM calibration. Straight from chrystler. This same procedure has been used ever since they have come out.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

Hi again- there is no learn mode in the DRB, several techs advised me wrong as they were thinking of a different version than the vin 6 24v diesel. we tried another known good APPS sensor, no different, still the same problem, will start hard or not at all, will start fine and idle fine, then die when pedal touched, or rev up then repeatedly stall until throttle let off (kinda like an engine hitting its rev limiter) It is still not producing ANY codes at all, I accidentally left the APPS sensor unplugged, it threw a"sensor voltage too low" code, but it started and idled perfectly. The diesl shop is suggesting checking the Tone wheel for the crank sensor (which by rights should throw a code, but never has) and I am going to hook up the Labscope to the crank sensor (Which is newly installed) to see what kind of signal it is giving.

-what is your gut feeling on- replacing the entire engine wiring harness, and if I were to disconnect the fuel pump control module, ground pin 6, power pin 7, and see if it will start and idle (Napafix techs say it should do that) Absolutely everyone is throwing their hands up with this one, running out of ideas. Any insight you can provide would be appreciated. thx, Jack

Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.

Ive got a wild guess here. Ive seen this happen very very few times, but it has happened before. Take your ECM connectors off the side of the computer and see if there is any signs of water or diesel fuel in the connectors. Look at your injection pump harness too. Ive had a couple that had a fuel or oil leak and it weaped down the wires and into a connector and started making the trucks do some weird things. One truck in particular kind of sounded like it had a hickup or sputter just randomly, never did it at the same speed or engine rpm every time it did it. If you do have fuel or oil in any connectors, you can try to clean it out really good and drive it and see if it works or your going to have to butcher your harness to rerun new wires to affected circuits or for out some dough on a wiring harness. This is a very possible problem you could be having,

 

let me know what you find.\

 

Im still thinking though that there is a wire that is shorting to power or ground going to your injection pump thats killing the power to your pump intermittently. You wont see a code in 50% of the trucks that do actually have a wiring problem. These are my two ideas. I hope it can get you somewhere on a diagnosis.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Hi again, good to hear back from you- we had built an 8 channel "test light" box with LED's to monitor all the affected power and grounds- none of them have failed when the truck was acting up, they worked 100%. I am almost wondering if I should not pull the whole harness off, strip it open and inspect it all. To replace it, I have to pull the whole thing off anyways. This truck never has the same problem twice, it always changes, it wont start 5 times in a row, with coughing and stalling, and the next time it will start and idle perfect. The last time I parked it after towing back from diesel shop to our shop, I accidentally left the APPS unplugged- it started and idled perfectly to drive around- does this mean anything? thanks, Jack
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
Have you tried while the truck was running, pulling hard on all the connectors and harness to see if the truck runs differently? Another thought is.,,, check your map sensor on the head and see if you have and corroded up pins or even a pin pulled out on the connector. The map can cause some weird crap like this if it doesnt think its seeing boost or any other kind of pressure changes.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
There have been lots of wiggle and tug tests done on this unit, I will try again though, and will also check the MAP sensor pins, and let you know- thanks, Jack
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
Pay close attention to the wiring harness that goes under the injection pump. Im determined to think that there is seriously killing the signal for the electronics on the pump. Not necessarily the power or grounds, but a signal, like i had said about the map sensor. Something is telling this truck to change the pump timing electronically. All the symptoms are pointing to the same thing...................timing.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Do you know of anyway to monitor the Data signal between hte ECM and the injection pump? Does the Chrysler DRB monitor the data, and determine if there is a problem with data transmission?
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
Yea, thats pretty much where your cummins controller comes into play because since its not OBD2 compliant. Unfortunately thats the code that you had in there that you told me about. Its saying in "lamens terms" that one of your signals is dropping out. Thats why i included the wiring schematics. If all of the wiring checked out, then it was saying you have an injection pump problem electronically. Have you been getting injection pumps from the same place. Alot of rebuilders for these pumps seem to think the pump is physically bad and not get new brains for the pumps when they rebuild them so the pumps arent ever good out of the box because they keep using crappy boxes on them.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

Hi again- I am just going to get started on checking the input signals into the ECM- I went to drive it into our shop, it would not even start. I went and unplugged the APPS, and the truck fired up and idled perfectly, (but turned on the check engine light) plugged the APPS back in when running, and it drove fine for 3-4 miles, then died on a hard acceleration. It started back up, turned off the check engine light, and drove fine for another mile, but started to act up a little, stalling when the throttle was jabbed, would stall momentarily but keep running. When the check engine light is on, is it at a base timing, ie a "limp home" mode? maybe your timing theory is proven here, it runs OK at base timing?

also- this truck had one new pump here, then our diesel parts supplier installed the four pumps, which all acted the same- Yet all four of those pumps are now driving around on four different trucks with zero problems reported on any of them. Now the diesel shop has another truck doing the exact same thing as this truck- no one is able to repair it either. I'm hoping I can figure this one out.... thanks, Jack

Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.

Yea, its at default for idle. The best way to describe how the fuel system works is. You hit the throttle, you are telling the injection pump to change the veins inside to open the flow to give more fuel to the injectors. Kind of like how a hand valve works on an air valve. You give it a little crack on the valve, a little air comes out, open the valve all the way, you get full flow. So if the controller is messed up or the signal is getting interrupted, then the pump dont know to open up all the way. Here is the list of whats all needed for the injection system. Injection pump, app sensor, map sensor, intake air temp sensor, fuel heater, heater grid. I have been reading up on the sensors. After the experience i had today with a diesel, i found out that anything is possible. If you have a scanner, i would have it hooked up and if you can data record, record what the truck does while its running normal and when it starts going nuts. Pay close attention to running voltage(is it over supplying voltage maybe up to 16 V), look at your intake air temp and compair it to ambient air temprature because it should be fairly close. I would pay close attention to your crank sensor reading and your intake air temp readings. If you cant find anything that changed with these, i would seriously have the pump taken off and if you could, take the pump to someone else to see if they can check the brain on the pump. If that same shop is having problems with another truck they pump their pump on and its the same problem, chances it has to be with something they did. These trucks are too simple as far as operation to have this big of a problem. Im sorry, im not the type of person to give up on something. This is bugging the crap out of me. Expecially on these year model diesels. Ive even asked a couple other guys i work with and they are going with the same thing, the pump electronics. We even called Diesel Services(local very respected diesel store/rebuilders) and they even said that some shops that build these pumps, to turn a little more profit out that they skimp on the electronics and most of the time just test half the modules and put them back on another pump if they couldnt find a problem right away. This shop said that these modules should never be reused 90% of the time because this is the main failure of the problem. Im determined to figure this problem out. Im on vacation next week so ill run by my old shop foremans shop and pick his brain on it. He has worked on these diesels and still does for the past 30 years. I want to see what he says. He has ran into quite a few screw balls on these trucks and im sure he has heard of this problem.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Hi Again- your comment about the other (same model with same problem) not working- the thing is, they never put a pump on that other truck- because of their failure with our truck- they checked all the same basics as on this truck, nothing jumped out at them, they washed their hands of it for now and are waiting for us to solve this one. And also- all those pumps that were installed on ours- they are running around on four different trucks now, all are running fine. Part of the problem checking our datastream is that our OTC Genisys does not show that much for data- but to me the air temp seems high (that the ECM is seeing) but when I feel how warm the intake manifold feels, maybe it is not too far out of whack. one thing I did notice on a test drive after a few stalls with the scanner connected, and I was watching the data stream, was that after a stall, everything went to zeros- and the the coolant temp and intake air temp went to -197 degrees (thats minus!) like the scanner lost communication, yet the truck was still running. After restarting the truck, data came back. It did this once or twice- but not consistently- Im thinking it is an effect of the stall, not a cause, what do you think? I am now going to hook my labscope to every sensor on the engine, two at a time, using two channels per sensor, one to read the signal right at the sensor, and one to read the same signal at the computer to compare the two, this should verify the sensor as well as the wiring- sound good? Also the truck is an automatic- does any data from the transmission come into play anywhere? thanks,
Jack- P.S. -this is bugging me too, I want to solve it, just trying to stay cool and think about the problem and not get pissed off at the "unsolvableness" of it, the harder it gets the more I want to solve it- so I really appreciate your input and thoughts....
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
Your on the right track with the lab scope. With it showing in the negative is very odd because even if they had lost communication with the ECM when the cutting out started, it shouldnt be zero. For a problem that im hearing about for the first time that doesnt seem to change with a new pump, that is crazy to me that another truck has the same problem yours has. Pay close attention to your intake air temp readings with your lab scope. I dont think the sensors are directly the cause, but a side affect if you would say................ Like a ground is getting loose on the side of the engine computer. Look all around the computer. You will see 2 wires spliced into one ground terminal. Some trucks can have 3 to it. Check and see if this ground is bolted directly to the block. OR even make sure the ground is tight on the bolt. This is a major computer ground. It would be worth a shot to check it.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Good day- hopefully this is a last reply to you- so I started testing any sensor that supplies input to the ECM on this truck- hooking a labscope to the sensor outout wire, and using another channel to monitor the same wire at the ECM end. All sensors tested good, Coolant temp, IAT, MAP, Cam, Crank, APPS, could not find a fault anywhere, found MAP specs on the internet as my scan tool doesnt show volts or pressure for the MAP, and we were starting to think the only thing left could be the harness- new was(NNN) NNN-NNNN$ and no used ones anywhere. The boss said he still had the used ECM we had tried earlier, did I want to put it back on for one last shot in the Dark? I put it back on the truck, it ran perfect, I test drove with computer hanging by some wire, ran perfect, no faults. I then unbolted the new (Defective?) ECM and put the used one in its place, put the harness all back and drove it again- perfect. We were starting to think the truck was running right every time we disturbed the harness, it is all back in place and running perfect for two days now. Any thoughts? we never did find any "problems." We are glad it is running, but have no idea why- it is running now with a used ECM, reman VP44 injection pump, and new APPS sensor. We are starting to lean to the ECM being defective- the truck only quit occasionally before the new ECM was installed, after installation, it started the big starting, stalling, coughing etc issues. Let me know what you think- thanks, Jack
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
alesGood day- hopefully this is a last reply to you- so I started testing any sensor that supplies input to the ECM on this truck- hooking a labscope to the sensor outout wire, and using another channel to monitor the same wire at the ECM end. All sensors tested good, Coolant temp, IAT, MAP, Cam, Crank, APPS, could not find a fault anywhere, found MAP specs on the internet as my scan tool doesnt show volts or pressure for the MAP, and we were starting to think the only thing left could be the harness- new was(NNN) NNN-NNNN$ and no used ones anywhere. The boss said he still had the used ECM we had tried earlier, did I want to put it back on for one last shot in the Dark? I put it back on the truck, it ran perfect, I test drove with computer hanging by some wire, ran perfect, no faults. I then unbolted the new (Defective?) ECM and put the used one in its place, put the harness all back and drove it again- perfect. We were starting to think the truck was running right every time we disturbed the harness, it is all back in place and running perfect for two days now. Any thoughts? we never did find any "problems." We are glad it is running, but have no idea why- it is running now with a used ECM, reman VP44 injection pump, and new APPS sensor. We are starting to lean to the ECM being defective- the truck only quit occasionally before the new ECM was installed, after installation, it started the big starting, stalling, coughing etc issues. Let me know what you think- thanks, Jack
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
What the kicker is, is when all the parts were getting changed out, like your app sensor, vp44, and ecm, its hard to say if you had 2 problems and you thought you were fighting one problem. It seems like you had a problem with that ECM with the driver circuits for the pump, but had an app sensor going down(most common problem on these years). I cant see the wiring harness giving you that much fits since you were so thurough with your testing on the wires. If i was saying which part was the problem, i would say you got a defective computer out of the box. Afterall, its not like the parts get checked after they get built from factory. If that was the case, nobody would ever get a bad one. I, along with ALOT of other techs, have had quite a few bad computers. About 3 on cummins and about 7 on other gas engines through the dealer. Like i had previously said, i would say you were dealing with 2 problems and didnt realize it. Its very hard to grasp that one problem could cause this much grief, unless you have the same kind of luck that i have where it does happen. I would run with what you got right now. If it wasnt fixed with the kind of problem you were having, it should have showed up after a few warm ups, expecially after a few days of driving. Right now, im in shock how much problems this truck showed. I sit here and think about what this truck has done and what i know causes these problems(usually) and its just shocking to me. The guy i had told you that i was going to talk to had went down the list of what it could have been and my answers pretty much went "done.... already been changed....already been checked and changed.....changed.....checked again and changed again" He looked at me with that deer in the headlights look and said "you have got to be kidding me, if all of those parts have been changed, it should be fine, actually should be better than fine, it should run like a new truck!!"
HWeaver184, Dodge Mechanic
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 220
Experience: ASE certified all 9 fields, specialize in diesel, trans, drivability. With chrysler 4yrs
HWeaver184 and 9 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
So thanks very much for your assistance, at least you gave me some idea to steer me towards an answer- thanks, Jack
Expert:  HWeaver184 replied 5 years ago.
i hope the information was helpful. Sometimes it can be difficult to diagnose vehicles without being hands on with the vehicle. Sometimes information is the best thing that can be givin in some cases unfortunately. THanks for giving the site a shot

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HWeaver184
HWeaver184
Dodge Mechanic
220 Satisfied Customers
ASE certified all 9 fields, specialize in diesel, trans, drivability. With chrysler 4yrs