How JustAnswer Works:

  • Ask an Expert
    Experts are full of valuable knowledge and are ready to help with any question. Credentials confirmed by a Fortune 500 verification firm.
  • Get a Professional Answer
    Via email, text message, or notification as you wait on our site.
    Ask follow up questions if you need to.
  • 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
    Rate the answer you receive.

Ask RIP Your Own Question

RIP
RIP, Lead Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 5591
Experience:  ASE Certified Master Technician, L1 Adv Level, Ca Smog License, Chrysler Aftermarket Training.
1100518
Type Your Dodge Question Here...
RIP is online now
A new question is answered every 9 seconds

2001 dodge caravan. no trouble codes. will not run.

Customer Question

2001 dodge caravan. no trouble codes. will not run. new fuel pump and filter. plenty of pressure where it goes into manifold.starts and dies immeditatly. just started on way home from work. pulled one spark plug and grounded, getting good fire. thought it might be injectors, but why would all go bad at once. maybe signal to injectors. how do I check these if you think this is the problem
Submitted: 6 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Hi, welcome to jA.

  • How many miles are on this Caravan?
  • Are there any warning lamps on the dash, while your cranking the engine?

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
90000 miles i guess all warning lights are light when it is cranked.
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX you have a typical Immobilizer failure...see the description below...do you have another key you can try or have made - it's by far the most common problem.

 

Sentry Key Immobilizer System
The Sentry Key Immobilizer System (SKIS) is available as a factory-installed option on this vehicle. It is designed to provide passive protection against unauthorized vehicle use by disabling the engine, after two (2) seconds of running, whenever an invalid key is used to start the vehicle. The SKIS is active whenever the ignition is ON and does not require any customer intervention. The primary components of the system are the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module (SKIM) , Sentry Key (ignition key w/ a transponder molded into the head), indicator light, Body Control Module (BCM), and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) . The SKIM is mounted to the steering column with the molded, integral antenna mounted on the light halo surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The indicator light, is located in the message center.

The SKIS includes keys from the factory which are pre-programmed. Each SKIM will recognize a maximum of eight Sentry Keys. If the customer would like to own additional keys other than those provided with the vehicle, they can be purchased from any authorized dealer. These keys must be programmed to the SKIM on the vehicle in order for the system to recognize them as valid keys. This can be done by the dealer with a DRB III scan tool or by a customer if this feature is available in their market and they have two (2) valid keys already available to them. Refer to the Service Procedures portion of this system for additional details. The SKIS performs a self-test each time the ignition switch is turned to the ON position and will store Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) if a system malfunction is detected. The SKIS can be diagnosed and any stored DTC's can be retrieved using a DRB III scan tool as described in the appropriate Body Diagnostic Procedures.

graphic

TRANSPONDER KEY
The Sentry Key Immobilizer System (SKIS) uses a transponder chip that is integral to each ignition key to communicate with the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module (SKIM). Ignition keys are supplied with the vehicle when it is shipped from the factory. The transponder chip is undermolded within the head of the key. This undermold is hidden beneath an overmolded rubber cap.

Each Sentry Key has a unique transponder identification code permanently programmed into it by the manufacturer. Likewise, the SKIM has a unique "Secret Key" code programmed into it by the manufacturer as well. When a Sentry Key is programmed into the memory of the SKIM, the SKIM stores the transponder identification code from the Sentry Key, and the Sentry Key learns the "Secret Key" code from the SKIM. Once the Sentry Key learns the "Secret Key" code of the SKIM, it is also permanently programmed into the transponder's memory. Therefore, blank keys for the SKIS must be programmed by the SKIM in addition to being cut to match the mechanical coding of the ignition lock cylinder. Refer to Electrical, Vehicle Theft Security, Transponder Key, Standard Procedure - Transponder Programming.

The Sentry Key's transponder is within the range of the SKIM's transceiver antenna ring when it is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder. When the ignition switch is turned to the ON position, the SKIM communicates with the Sentry Key via a Radio Frequency (RF) signal. The SKIM determines if a valid key is present based on the information it receives from the Sentry Key. If a valid key is detected, that fact is communicated to the PCM via the PCI bus and the vehicle is allowed to continue running. If an invalid key is received by the PCM or no status at all is communicated, the vehicle will stall after two (2) seconds of running. The indicator light will be flashing at this point. The Sentry Key's transponder can not be repaired. If it is faulty or damaged, it must be replaced.

Common communication problems:

  • Two transponder keys too close together.
  • Speed Pass too close to transponder key. Solid indicator that there is a system failure.
  • Loss of PCM communication.
  • Failed antenna circuit.

VTSS/SKIS INDICATOR LAMP
The Sentry Key Immobilizer System (SKIS) uses an indicator light to convey information on the status of the system to the customer. This light is shared with the Vehicle Theft Security System (VTSS). The light is located in the Message Center. The indicator light is controlled by the Body Control Module (BCM) based upon messages it receives from the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module (SKIM) on the PCI bus.

The BCM performs a four second bulb check, regardless of SKIM messages. After the bulb check, the lamp is controlled according to SKIM messages. Then, the SKIM sends messages to the BCM to operate the light based upon the results of the SKIS self tests. The light may be actuated in two possible ways, flashing or on solid. If the light comes ON and stays ON solid after a power-up test, this indicates that the SKIM has detected a system malfunction. If the SKIM detects an invalid key when the ignition switch is moved to the ON position, it sends a message on the PCI bus to the BCM, to flash the light. The SKIM can also send a message to flash the light and generate a single audible chime at the same time. These two events occurring simultaneously indicate that the SKIS has been placed into the "Customer Learn" mode. Refer to Electrical, Vehicle Theft Security, Transponder Key, Standard Procedure - Transponder Programming for more information on the "Customer Learn" mode. If the light comes ON and stays ON after the power-up test, diagnosis of the SKIS should be performed using a DRB III scan tool and the appropriate Body Diagnostic Procedures. The light is not a serviceable component.

 

 

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Reply to RIP's Post: tell me is this possible. this car was driven home at about 10 miles per hour after it started acting up.it would only do about 10mph. now it won,t start at all
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

No that doesn't make any sense, normally this is the first sign of acting up..the firing over for 2 seconds and stalling. During the time it acted up, did any warning lamps come on the dash or did the odometer read "no bus?"

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
this isn,t my vehicle. i am trying to help a retired friend fix his car. he doesn,t remember any lights comming on when this happened. he said when he first got it home it would run at about 10 miles per hour. now it won,t start at all. i was over there and the mileage was showing up on the odometer
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Let's try this...i'm sure it's an injector pulse problem...but let's verify it's fuel related. Spray some carburator cleaner into the engine's intake, do this by first removig the air duct and spraying the cleaner in there..try not to use starting fluid it's too volitile for this test. Be sure to replace the duct before cranking the engine...crank it and see if it runs longer until the cleaner runs out...this will tell us it is definitly a fuel problem. Let me know the results and we'll go from there. Meanwhile, do you have another ignition key to use?

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
we actually used gas yesterday and it did seem to help. there is another key. we will try it when his wife gets here
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Try the key and let me know, I'd hate for it to be this simple and run you in circles trying to test it...it really does sound like an immobilizer problem and at this milage there aren;t any other common failures with the fuel system. On the other hand the ignition coil, the CKP and CMP sensors go out, and in some cases the engine computer...but almost all of those cause a loss of ignition spark - which you have already tested. In you case I think the immobilzer is not allowing the injection pulse..i'll on and off the site throughout the day from 2:00pm PST, so if you leave a post I will promise to get back in a timely manner after that time.

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
if i leave a post, do i need to leave it for rip?or should i just keep this sight open?
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

You can just come back to it anytime and the post will still be open to respond to as we've been doing thus far...I check my emails regularly so it shouldn't be more than an hour in between getting an answer. If it does start with the other key than let me know as well....hope it does :)

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
tried the other key and still the same result
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Alright...

  • Do you have access to a Noid Lamp - for injector pulse testing?
  • What type of scanner are you using, does it also show data?

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
i have autoxray and it does show data
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Does it show if the CAM and CRANK sensor are "in sync," while cranking the engine. Usually the display will show -- CAM (YES) / CRANK (YES)...or if there is a fault it will read CAM (NO)/CRANK (YES), or any combination with a no or out of sync error. I'd like to know if this may possibly be a CAM or CRANK sensor error...if it doesn;t show this data, we'll move on. Just so you know that the problem is now difficult to diagnose without the factory level scan tool becuase even if there still is an immobilizer problem we can't access any of the data without the correct scanner...but let's see what we can check/test and come to a educated conclusion.

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
it only shows ignition timing 9 degree advance
what is noid lamp
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Noid lamp is a small bulb assembly that plugs right into the fuel injector connector, can't be more than $20 at most auto part stores...it will tell us if the injector pulse is happening at the injector connector...but what we need to do to verify this is keep the engine running on carb cleaner, while monitoring the noid lamp for at least 5 seconds after it is running...since it fires on it's own for the first couple of seconds. The immobilizer system directly cuts off the fuel injector pulse inside the computer. Before getting a Noid lamp and some carb cleaner I'd like you to disconenct the CAM sensor and see if the engine may run...this will turn on the check engine lamp immediatly and you'll need to clear the code. Can you tell me what engine size you have?

Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
3.3
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Cam you disconect the CMP sensor wiring connector. Illustration below. Than try to start it you may need to crank for about 10 seconds so the computer can recognize the CMP signal is not there. CMP sensor is used by the computer to synchronize fuel injectors...a bad signal could result in stalling after starting, without setting a check engine lamp code. When the CMP signal is missing the computer runs on default values. Let me know the results.

~Rip

The camshaft position sensor is mounted in the front of the timing case cover.

 

 

graphic
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
i am not at the location of the van. he does not have internet. if i disconnect the cmp will the car maybe start and if it does what does this tell me i would have a fifteen minute drive to the van
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

It tells us that the CMP sensor is most likely bad (about 90% chance if the engine runs with it disconnected)...if it doesn't i'd like you to get a can of carb cleaner and use those straws that come with it to spray cleaner in the intake while someone cranks it over...spray in short bursts it doesn't take much to keep it running. Place a Noid Lamp on one of the injectors while your keeping it running...if the lamp stops blinking but your keeping the van running on the carb cleaner we know it's not getting a computer injection signal. The van will run rough and check engine lamp will come on during this test.

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
I'll try this and get back with you
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

No problem, let me know the results when you can.

~Rip

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
i went over to the van and checked the keys. the key he has been using has no chip in it. It is just a metal key. I tried disconnecting the CMP the van would not start at all.
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Alright...so this van does NOT have the immobilizer system...that means it must be that it's not getting injector pulse...you can buy a Noid lamp and test like I described, but sounds like it may have a bad computer. Below is a location of the computer...to test it you need access to a factory level scan tool...they do fail on these, but for injector pulse it much more rare.

graphic

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
just one more question. i was told the fuel pressure was ok, i didn't check it, what should the pressure be at the motor
Expert:  RIP replied 6 years ago.

Definitly should check the pressure if you actually haven't put it on a guage..it should be about 58 psi.

~Rip

RIP, Lead Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 5591
Experience: ASE Certified Master Technician, L1 Adv Level, Ca Smog License, Chrysler Aftermarket Training.
RIP and 9 other Dodge Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
catalytic converter plugged

JustAnswer in the News:

 
 
 
Ask-a-doc Web sites: If you've got a quick question, you can try to get an answer from sites that say they have various specialists on hand to give quick answers... Justanswer.com.
JustAnswer.com...has seen a spike since October in legal questions from readers about layoffs, unemployment and severance.
Web sites like justanswer.com/legal
...leave nothing to chance.
Traffic on JustAnswer rose 14 percent...and had nearly 400,000 page views in 30 days...inquiries related to stress, high blood pressure, drinking and heart pain jumped 33 percent.
Tory Johnson, GMA Workplace Contributor, discusses work-from-home jobs, such as JustAnswer in which verified Experts answer people’s questions.
I will tell you that...the things you have to go through to be an Expert are quite rigorous.
 
 
 

What Customers are Saying:

 
 
 
  • I AM VERY GLAD THAT I TOOK A CHANCE ON YOUR PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS. I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN REPLACING THE FUEL PUMP. MY TRUCK RUNS LIKE A CLOCK. IT RUNS LIKE THE DAY I BOUGHT IT. NO LUNGING FORWARD, THE TURBO REACTS THE SECOND I STOMP ON THE GAS, AND IT HAS A LOT MORE POWER AND EVEN SOUNDS BETTER TO ME. IT SAVED ABOUT $500.00 BY DOING THE WORK MYSELF. I GIVE YOU ALL THE CREDIT FOR YOUR DIAGNOSING THE PROBLEM, JUST FROM THE SYMPTONS I GAVE YOU OVER THE e MAIL. I WILL USE YOUR WEB SITE AGAIN AND REFER MY FRIENDS. THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE HELP. TOM WHITTAKER USA
< Last | Next >
  • I AM VERY GLAD THAT I TOOK A CHANCE ON YOUR PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS. I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN REPLACING THE FUEL PUMP. MY TRUCK RUNS LIKE A CLOCK. IT RUNS LIKE THE DAY I BOUGHT IT. NO LUNGING FORWARD, THE TURBO REACTS THE SECOND I STOMP ON THE GAS, AND IT HAS A LOT MORE POWER AND EVEN SOUNDS BETTER TO ME. IT SAVED ABOUT $500.00 BY DOING THE WORK MYSELF. I GIVE YOU ALL THE CREDIT FOR YOUR DIAGNOSING THE PROBLEM, JUST FROM THE SYMPTONS I GAVE YOU OVER THE e MAIL. I WILL USE YOUR WEB SITE AGAIN AND REFER MY FRIENDS. THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE HELP. TOM WHITTAKER USA
  • Just a quick line to tell you how pleased I am to have my brakes working properly after all this time. Your answer was what I needed. I would certainly recommend you highly. God bless! Rev. Jerry Baysinger Holts Summit, Mo
  • I recently asked a question about my 2005 dodge ram, and I just wanted to let my Expert know that he hit the nail squarely on the head with his answer. I wanted to thank him again. Greg Pittsburgh, PA
  • Just a quick line to tell you how pleased I am to have my brakes working properly after all this time. Your answer was what I needed. I would certainly recommend you highly. God bless! Jerry Holts Summit, MO
  • I was skeptical at first but thought I'd give it a try. I was pleasantly surprised. Your site actually is a quality service that I would recommend to others in a heartbeat. Stan Sayre, PA
  • Wonderful service, prompt, efficient, and accurate. Couldn't have asked for more. I cannot thank you enough for your help. Mary C. Freshfield, Liverpool, UK
  • This expert is wonderful. They truly know what they are talking about, and they actually care about you. They really helped put my nerves at ease. Thank you so much!!!! Alex Los Angeles, CA
 
 
 

Meet The Experts:

 
 
 
  • Jerry

    Master Mechanic

    Satisfied Customers:

    1227
    ASE Master tech, 30 years exp. troubleshooter, driveability tech
< Last | Next >
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/SU/supermechanic/2013-8-23_03546_500.64x64.jpg Jerry's Avatar

    Jerry

    Master Mechanic

    Satisfied Customers:

    1227
    ASE Master tech, 30 years exp. troubleshooter, driveability tech
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/MO/MoparCertified/2012-6-7_4142_mechanic.64x64.jpg Mopar Certified's Avatar

    Mopar Certified

    Dodge Technician

    Satisfied Customers:

    5813
    24 Year Chrysler/Dodge Certified Specialist
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jeep10000/2008-9-18_222938_192601.jpg Chris's Avatar

    Chris

    Shop Foreman

    Satisfied Customers:

    4041
    ASE and Chrysler Certified Master Tech
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/ke4ich/2009-08-12_212931_DSC02211.JPG moparfl's Avatar

    moparfl

    ASE Certified Technician

    Satisfied Customers:

    3285
    ASE Master Tech Gold level Chrysler Status 30 years dealership exp
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/DO/dodgerench/2012-8-1_1142_IMG3173.64x64.JPG Dodgerench's Avatar

    Dodgerench

    ASE Certified Technician

    Satisfied Customers:

    2480
    30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/RO/rodcuda/2011-7-25_224114_Donhoff1.64x64.JPG Neal's Avatar

    Neal

    Dodge Mechanic

    Satisfied Customers:

    1870
    30 years experience in Dodge Chrysler and Plymouth
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/tsmodie/2009-6-10_144056_tim.jpg Tim Mohr's Avatar

    Tim Mohr

    ASE MASTER TECH

    Satisfied Customers:

    1664
    30 YRS EXPERIENCE, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, GAS AND DEISEL