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Curtis B.
Curtis B., Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 989
Experience:  Technican turned service manager with multiple lines of equipment and rental units.
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Cat d5n parking brake will not release, have to jump solenoid

Customer Question

Cat d5n parking brake will not release, have to jump solenoid on starter to start, once running parking brake will not release
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Hello, Parking brake must have a fully charged battery and working alternator to release.If ether is weak, the brake will come back on.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Most machines have a separate fuse for the parking brake. This can also affect the operation of the brake if it is corroded.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Your switch could be failing as well. Since you are jump starting, this could be related. The neutral start circuit passes through the park brake switch.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Just replaced parking brakke switch and new alternator as old alternator had zero out put. Also 2 new batteries and I have 24.4 volts at back of alternator when idling

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Did you have 24 volts to the brake fuse and the parking brake solenoid?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Where are these points to check? Where is the solenoid? Which wire on solenoid? Is fuse marked brake? I have an employee working on machine a few hundred miles from me

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The solenoid is on the brake valve.The fuse is in the fuse panel marked for the brake.I must have the full machine serial number to find detailed information
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Does the solenoid have 2 wires green and tan also codes f3696 f6396 r2700

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Those numbers are the mileage in forward and reverse. I will need the full serial number to know for certain about the wire numbers.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Akd serial # ***** u need the numbers after AKD? I will have to find them as the cat store just wanted the first 3

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
First three is a start but, if a change has been made I may give you incorrect information.I will see what I can find.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Parking brake is Pink and White. This is one of the two valves located on the front of the steering and brake valve body. See schematic below, hopefully it is correct since this machine has 3 different versions of schematics.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
NOTE; this model does not use a separate brake fuse. The park brake solenoid is powered through the ECM from pin #1 of the connector on the ecm.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
White wire is a return feed to the ECM with the other return circuits.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
(###) ###-####and 113 16804 113 29913 030
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

030 81902

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
0096.03 is the fuel gauge.0168 - Electrical System: FMI 04 Voltage below normal or shorted low. CID 0299 - Transmission Direction Lever Position Sensor: FMI 13 Out of calibration. CID 0819 - Display Data Link:FMI 02 Data erratic, intermittent, or incorrect Codes begin with 030 are from monitor, 036 is from engine and 113 is from transmission. No codes for brake, just low voltage. Calibration code will not cause any problem.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
If you are not seeing any electrical faults with the brake solenoids, you may have trash in the solenoid valve causing the problem.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

It's not clicking actuating like it used to...when u set the brake before you could hear an engagement sound in the rear and since it won't start normally I thnk we have an electrical prob

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Where on the machine woould I find these valves? Under floor? Rear panel?

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
That is true, a solenoid will not prevent starting.The solenoids are under the floor plate to the left front side of the transmission case.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Here is a simple schematic that may cover your machine. For the detailed schematic you must purchase it from your dealer.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Where should I start? And how? Key on non run condition?

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Check power to switch then out to the start relay (306 wire noted on schematic). Start relay is inside the fuse panel box.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Here is the fuse panel wiring.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I will update u tomorrow thanks

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Ok, this is a difficult wiring system. Many options are not shown so numbers do not match on every thing.That is the main reason to have the full schematic.The key switch should power send power to the green 306 wire in start position and then it will go to the relay to energize the 304 white wire for the starter solenoid. The numbers jump around so, use the wire numbers shown on the wires to help trace the circuit.I will be back here tomorrow night if you need more help.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Can you send me schematic from brake switch to starter solenoid?
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The white wire marked 304 on the start relay goes directly to the starter solenoid.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Are you available today?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Akd01509
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I have some new codes. 036 296 036 444 030 819 I jumped the relay so the 444 is probably because of me?

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
That code may have been created by you but, it does point to a very good testing guide I did not see last night. I will attach it below. Here is the information about the codes you posted. The 819 code was listed before. The 296 code is possible if you blew the transmission fuse.CID 0296 FMI 09 Unable to communicate with Transmission ECM Conditions Which Generate This Code:The Electronic Control Module (ECM) detects one of the following conditions:Communication with the transmission cannot be established within three seconds after ECM powerup.After communication with the transmission has been established, communication stops for one second.The ECM detects all of the following conditions:If the transmission ECM is being flashed, the transmission ECM is not in sleep mode.Battery voltage is greater than 19 VDC for five seconds.The engine is not cranking.System Response:The ECM will log the diagnostic code. All transmission features that rely on the data link are disabled.Transmission features that rely on the data link are disabled.CID 0444 FMI 05 Start Relay open circuit Conditions Which Generate This Code:The Electronic Control Module (ECM) detects an open circuit in the circuit.System Response:The code is logged.The engine will not crank.CID 0444 FMI 06 Start Relay short to groundConditions Which Generate This Code:The Electronic Control Module (ECM) detects a short to ground in the circuit.System Response:The code is logged.The engine will not crank. Perform the following diagnostic procedure: Start Relay Circuit - Test
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Let me know what you find. I will be glad to help as much as I can.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I can start the machine going across the starter relay in the fuse box however the brake is still locked
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Did you check the start circuit through the park brake switch?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Bus bar coming into relay has power two wires coming into relay are dead and if I go from bus bar to white wire on other relay post with a momentary switch with alligator clips machine fires right up but won't move also u have the serial number now and I can tell you the schematic u sent is different than my machine
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The circuit is different for this serial number. I guess the other image of the park brake switch did not match.I will attach a new image below
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Here is a better image of the powertrain wiring.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I have a green and brown wire going into the start relay and they are dead in start position the orange wire on back of key switch is hot and on pin 12 on brake I have 7 volts and same on pin 11 ....also u helped me a year ago on this machine I just noticed ....your bonus is up to $100 now by the way
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Bonus? Is the site suggesting that? (news to me!)Do you have the wire numbers on the pins you are describing? Which switch are you referring?I will check the green and brown wire to see what I can find.Is this the same problem as a year ago?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The other image actually showed where power comes into park switch and out and the image. Above does not tell u anything about the park circuit operation
Also if those codes are logged will they have to be erased in order for machine to work? The cat dealer said the codes have to be cleared in order for machine to work and then they wanted my cc number
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Not same problem I will give you a tip of one hundred ...I am sure I can tip right? None of my wires are numbered on pin 8 and 9 on park brake switch I do have 21 volts and various voltages on other pins also can you tell me what size Allen wren
Nah it takes to get Ecm off as I have tried metric and sae
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
No codes must be cleared for this machine. That only applies on the new Tier 4 engine emission faults.The green and brown wire run to the engine ecm. Green wire should be + and brown wire should be - feeds from the ECM.Here is the wiring for the ecm
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
How much voltage is the green wire on the relay supposed to have and in what position? Key on or key start?
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
4mm or 3/16. Sometimes corrosion will change the size for you. All of start circuit should be 24 volts. The 2 brake solenoids will be also but, the steering and brake groups (the 4 solenoids that are inline and variable voltage. Never put 24 volt to these 4 or they will be damaged.)
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Green wire should have 24 volts just with the key on? If so we do not have that as the green wire is dead
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
No, that is the start relay, it will only have power when the key switch is in the start position.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It has no power when you turn to start either this is the green wire on the relay I am speaking of
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Start relay in the fuse box. (item 15)(###) ###-####bus bar on one side, white wire (304) on other side with green wire (306) and brown wire (K972)
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Geen wire and brown wire are from ENGINE ECM.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
This could be from a failed wire to the park brake switch since the engine does not start and the park brake does not release.I would check continuity between the park brake switch and the power train ecm.Mainly the G939, F780 and 419 wires.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yes that is what I am talking about and when I unplug the green brown wire from relay and check the green wire coming from the Ecm in the start position with a good ground on my test light I have nothing
How do I send u pics of the harness I am speaking of?
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The paper clip in the toolbar is the upload button. Just choose the file from your pc and upload it. It will attach to the next message. (if your page is like mine)
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
So check from which pin to which pin please for continuity? Also where am I supposed to have voltage on the park switch? I only have 21 volts on pin 8 and 9 and lower voltages on other pins or no voltage
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
No paper clip geeez it's always something can I email it to u?***@******.*** is my email and the ecm is on the side of the block right?
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Pin 9 is from the fuse for the transmission ecm. Check the fuse for poor connection, you should have 24 volts. Pin 8 goes to the park brake solenoid to dump pressure and keep brakes applied in park. When you flip the switch, the power then moves to pin 7 and powers the float magnet in the blade joystick (Blue wire marked E990).Pin 4 is from PT ECM pin 19 to normally open side of the park brake switch. (This should be a "floating" ground, meaning it does not connect to the chassis ground. You can only test for continuity.) Check continuity between these to points.Pin 3 is to the PT ECM pin 13 for the normally closed side of the park brake switch. Pin 11 is to pin 16 or 15 as these are both sensor return wires. (Part of the "floating" ground system)
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Pin 1 is pink and had 5 volts pin 2 is red and had .016 volts pin 3 is yellow and has .016 volts pin 4 is brown and has 3.2 volts pin 5 is white with blue tracer w 5.4 volts pin 6 white 5.3 volts pin 7 purple 0 volts pin 8 gray 22 volts pin 9 22 volts pin 10 black 2.61 volts pin 11 orange 7 volts pin 12 green 7volts
The 22 volts above went to 24 when machine running
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Send me a link using Dropbox or Flicker, that is much easier. Do not post personal information on these pages, it is open to all the public to see.I was trying to get a link for dropbox but, it does not want to work for some reason.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Why do I have voltage on in 11 on brake switch?
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Are you describing the wires on the switch? They are different for the manufacturer of the switch, only use the wires on the CAT harness to match to the schematic. (BTW the colors are for legends only, the two letters describe the wire color.)Are you on the park brake switch connector in the left console? It should only have the six wires I described above.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
You could be picking up voltage from another sensor due to a lost connection to the ECM. That is why it is better to check continuity.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Remember, floating grounds that are return wires are connected to several other sources too.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It has the same number of wires coming from machine harness into the switch and out to switch itself
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Well, this schematic must be wrong too. Can you get me the wire numbers? And the switch part number too?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Can I put 24 volts to the brake solenoid and can you please send me a pic of where it is located on the machine and circle it for me as the machine is in a creek bottom and we have a tropical storm that is going to flood the creek tomorrow and I need to move the machine 20 yards quick and can work on in two days after flood stops
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Switch is(###) ###-####part number and that was on the old switch also
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
To move the machine, start it and raise the blade and shut it off. The remove the center cover of the final drive and use a 5/8 bolt to remove the outer shaft on each side. Be sure to block the machine from moving when you do this, the machine will not have any brakes to stop it from rolling away. ( You may need to move the machine slightly to get any binding off the axle and then it will slide right out.) With both outer axles out, you can tow the machine around to move it out of the creek. Just remember, it will not have any brakes or turning ability. You must force it around where you want it to go with the other machine(s).
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I have no other machine
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Can you find a schematic with that switch part #? Please
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The parking brake solenoid is designed to DUMP pressure off when it activated. (Park brake on-set)When switch is off (drive) no current is sent to brake. The brakes are spring applied and hydraulically released.Since you are not seeing fault codes for the brake, you may have a pressure problem. Have you checked pressure to the brake solenoids? Do you have tooling to check pressures?I will look for that switch too.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The last powertrain wiring diagram shows that switch number. See the lower left side.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Did you check the wire numbers of the harness to see if any match the drawing?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
My guy in the field swears none of the machine harness wires are numbered this is one of the problems in that I am 300 miles away from machine and have to work in between and I think I am going to have to drive down to machine
Could I put 24 volts on the brake solenoid? Why is the green wire dead on the start solenoid? I think you answered this above and I need to make a list of your answers and go step by step
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The wires were once numbered, the marks can get rubbed off or cleaner can cut them off. You can put 24 volts to the two solenoid on the front of the steering brake valve BUT, both of these are DUMP valves. They dump pressure off and sets the brakes when energized. (Springs apply brake, pressure will release brakes.) The reason the green wire is not seeing voltage could be a broken wire from the engine ECM or the engine ecm is not being signaled from the powertrain ecm that the machine is in neutral.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
The powertrain ECM will energize the Steering Brake solenoids to release the brakes once it sees the parking brake switch is off. Just a note, the brake pedal has a switch that controls the other solenoid (of the two front brake solenoids). I have not seen this switch and hold the brakes locked. This is the solenoid call the Service Brake Dump Solenoid.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
So, the parking brake switch is the center of all these functions. If you can get a dealer to connect ET to the machine, they can test the operation of these items and see which is working and which are not.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Using the 4C-8195 clicker box can show some of the transmission functions but, it will not help with the engine functions. ET program is the only way to see what the engine is doing.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Can I apply 24 volts to green wire on starter relay and see if that works?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Can u send me a pic of the location of the brake solenoid a please
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
I would not, you will back feed voltage to the ecm. The schematic for this serial number does not show the start circuit in the park brake.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Here is a view looking down on the solenoids from the top. (this is under the floor plate)Solenoid Valves for Steering and Braking on fingertip-control machines and electronic clutch brake machines(1) Solenoid Valve (Parking Brake)(2) Solenoid Valve (Right Steering Brake)(3) Solenoid Valve (Right Steering Clutch)(4) Solenoid Valve (Secondary Brake)(5) Solenoid Valve (Left Steering Brake)(6) Solenoid Valve (Left Steering Clutch)
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
I think the layout is wrong for the steering solenoids. Normally, it is from the left side of the machine to the right in the same way as the machine is left and right. #2 would be left steering brake and 3 would be left steering clutch. 5 and 6 would be right side.I use the schematic as reference and match colors and numbers when I can read them. (Eye site is not as good as it used to be.)Below is an image of the valve looking down from the right side of the platform.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
what do you think about unplugging the solenoids? Also the ecm schematic above shows pin 67 for the wire going to the relay correct? I need to check for continuity between pin 67 and the plug up at the relay correct?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I am a FTP machine should I be checking the neutral switch also?
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
Yes, brown wire goes to pin 67. Green wire goes to pin 10. Check these for continuity to the start relay connector.FTP?Do you mean this is FTC, the parking brake switch is the neutral start switch. It must send the correct signal to the PT ECM and then the PT ECM can signal the engine it is good to start via the data link between the two ECMs.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yes sorry FTC shout I have 24 volts on pin 10 coming out of ecm? What if I do not have 24 volts on pin # ***** then what?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I know if I have the machine in fwd or reverse it will not start also
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Should I have 24 volts on pin 10 .... Not "shout" typo sorry
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
I would believe it is 24 volts and the brown wire is a floating ground. (This is done to add security systems)If it is not sending voltage out, it may be because the park brake switch is not in neutral. If the PT ECM does not signal the engine ECM, then the engine will not crank. Now, you did have a calibration code for the direction shift control. Does the dash show direction when you shift?I am guessing about a lot of this because I use ET to see what is not working when I have a start problem. I haven't needed to check much further than the item ET pointed to during testing.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

It does show the direction on the dash. So you are saying that if cat comes out they can diagnose this quickly? The problem is the local dealer said it would be a week before they could get out. Do indepent people have the diagnostic tools?

Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
If the technician has experience on the N model, it should go fairly quick. Fixing the problem could take longer. I am concerned you don't have wire fault codes related to more of these switches and solenoids. An active code would show a current problem. These codes will have the words SERV CODE showing when the number scrolls past. The codes you have listed are fairly common to see and not have a real problem. Some independent guys have the tooling and ET licenses but, their cost will be close to the dealer as all of this cost lots of money. ET must be renewed each year or it will go dead. Older version cannot read newer engines and this has pinched off the pirated copies a few other had. Truck versions can only see the J1939 engine codes and CAT will not put all the engine related systems in that protocol. They leave them on the CAT DATA LINK (CDL) protocol so they cannot see everything.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
I doubt you have an ECM failure but, it is possible. I would believe you have a wire failure but, without a code, it is hard to pinpoint the problem.
Expert:  catmastertech replied 1 year ago.
ET will at least show the operation of the switches and if the ECM is sending out a current to the solenoids. Maybe the dealer can find someone to just check it out to see what is working or not and let you replace the parts. I have done this for some people but, about have the time you find more problems than they can handle or more calibrations will be needed anyway.

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