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sprinkles08
sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Chrysler
Satisfied Customers: 16666
Experience:  ASE Master & Advanced level certified, Chrysler Master Certified, Trans and Hybrid Specialist
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2002 town and country. Replaced PCM and fuel injectors. New

Customer Question

2002 town and country. Replaced PCM and fuel injectors. New lines fuel injector 4 ...all lines check with light bulb...still code 0204...also get rancid smelling white smoke from exhaust...did have gas smell...that's gone now that have put in new PCM...plus excessive water from exhaust...any ideas
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Chrysler
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Hello and welcome to JustAnswer!

Your number 4 injector driver circuit is shorted to ground. That's what is setting the fault code, and it's causing the injector to spray fuel at it's full capability constantly, so that's why it runs bad and has the smoke and excessive condensation from the exhaust.

I wouldn't recommend running it again until it's repaired because it could damage the drivers in the replacement PCM.

There are a couple places where wiring damage is known to cause this. It could be melted wiring in the harness where it goes up under the exhaust crossover pipe, but it's more common to find damage on the injector harness.

Take a look in the ignition coil area and you will see a rectangular electrical connector. One side of the connector will be on the main engine harness, the other side will be part of a harness that goes under the intake to the injectors, MAP sensor, etc. On the injector harness side of the connector gently pull off any tape or slit loom covering the harness and you should find wiring damage. What usually happens is the insulation shrinks or melts from the heat and it will allow wires to short to each other or to ground.

You can replace the harness or you could remove it and repair it, which would take a little longer but be much cheaper.

If you don't see any damage in this area then it's going to be in the main harness somewhere between that connector and the PCM. You could either continue to try to find and repair the problem area or you could hardwire the circuit from the connector to the PCM and cut the old wire at both ends to remove it from the circuit.


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Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Sir,
Thanks for your quick reply. I have already jumpered the following things:
1. From just inside the main connector of the fuel rail harness (brown/white, and brown/tan wires) within just an inch or so of the modular connector itself, using 14 gauge wires, black and red.
2. From inside the power distribution (fuse block) underside directly in the #10 pin for the brown/white wire, with 14 gauge
3. From within an inch of the PCM modular connector #1, at the #16 wire (brown/tan) 16guage.
Each splice was a baring of the wire, then a full wrap, and solder in place, and then reinsulate over.

Once these were done, the 4 ends were connected. BUT I DID NOT eliminate the original wires, which run -essentially- parallel to the new ones. Might this be my remaining problem?

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
That's great, you're almost there.

Running the new driver wire from the PCM to the injector will take care of the problem, but the old wire needs to be cut at both ends. With the new wire in place you know you have a good circuit in between, but with the old wire still in place it's still shorting the circuit to ground since it's still connected at both ends. Go ahead and cut the original wire at both the injector and PCM, start it up and you should find that is clears up and runs normal again pretty quickly. It might take a couple minutes to run good again with all that fuel that's been poured into the cylinder, but you should find fairly immediate results and the code should go away.

If the code does return immediately then the injector driver in the replacement PCM may have been damaged by the short to ground, but I'm assuming you have some sort of warranty on the PCM that you could fall back on if that's the case.
sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Chrysler
Satisfied Customers: 16666
Experience: ASE Master & Advanced level certified, Chrysler Master Certified, Trans and Hybrid Specialist
sprinkles08 and 3 other Chrysler Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Sir,
I'll gladly give you a great rating, for all your help so far... Bt I must ask very very specifically:
1. Will the differences in gauge from 14 to 16 affect anything in performance or computer response?
2. Have I gotten close enough to termination points that it -is okay- to cut FACTORY WIRES.? Once I do, there's no going back, you know.

3. Also, before I DO cut them, please know that I had ohm tested all the runs for the driver wires, and the power leads, and they had tested for continuity excellently every every time. A mechanic friend of mine who is excellent told me that although I may have had VOLTAGE, I might not have had amperage enough to drive the injector, because the -one wire-might check okay, but not actually be FIRING. is this the case, and AM I SAFE TO NOW CUT THE WIRES, inside of the loop I've now created by making the bypass?

AND THANK YOU!!!!!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
The difference in wire gauge isn't going to be a problem at all. The bulk wire we have at my dealer is 14 gauge and it's used for almost all wiring repairs that I do. It will just be a little heavier than original and won't have an effect on operation.

Yep, go ahead and cut the wires! You can leave enough room to reconnect wires in the future if you want, just cut a couple inches from the connectors.

The injectors get voltage from the ASD relay on the common wire that goes to all of them. They are fired by a ground signal on the other wire in the connector, the one that goes to the PCM. What has happened is this wire shorted to ground in the harness and is causing the number 4 injector to fire at it's full capability any time the ASD relay is powered up.



You're welcome!


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I cut the wires and it didn't change it at all...still reacts the same and still get the same reading...what next?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Do you have a test light?


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
What kind of test light? Can I use a simple 10v bulb with leads? That I have
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Yes, a simple 12v bulb and jumper wires will work fine.

Attach one wire from battery positive and the other end to the bulb. Take the second wire and go from the bulb, the other end will be used for testing.

Insert a paperclip into the back side of the PCM connector at the injector driver you hard wired, push it in until you know it makes contact with the terminal.

Touch the end of the second jumper wire to the paperclip. Does the bulb light up?



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Should the car be off, on, or engine running to perform this test?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Just leave the key off for now.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
No it doesn't light up, however, usually the PCM doesn't have power when the engine isn't running, nor does it have power or appear to, in the full on / engine off position. (should the PCM have 12v in these positions?). The test light works from the positive battery terminal grounded to any other steel in the engine compartment, so I am assuming the PCM is not energized right now.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
We were checking the circuit for a short to ground.

Now leave the light setup in place and start the engine, see if the light quickly and faintly flashes.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Im sorry I can't do that right at this moment because the the interim I dismantled enough to get to the fuel rail to wire new 16 gauge directly to the no. 4 plug so there is no interruption between the PCM, the power distribution module and fuel injector no. 4 specifically. ( you may recall that my original jumpers were right by the 10 pin for the fuel rail harness) so now I am going directly to the source.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Ok, let's go ahead and finish running that wire and see where we're at then. Most of the wiring problems are found in the injector harness itself so this wire may take care of it.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay,
Here's the latest stays update:
I have now wired 16 gauge replacement wires directly to the #4 injector plug, and they are interwoven and soldered in place to within less than an inch of the actual modular plug itself.
Then, the red and black replacement wires have been secured alongside the loom for the fuel rail harness to nearly the main 10pin plug set. The old brown/white, and brown/tan for #4 have been completely bypassed entirely.
The new red and black set is brought ALL THE WAY OUT to where they can connect directly to a new lead from the PCM #16 terminal, for the ground interrupter, or driver wire, and the power lead from under the power distribution center.
I also LEFT IN PLACE the additional new power wire which had been installed as the original jumper, which services all the OTHER injectors anyway. (clearly, IT WORKS, because the car runs!!!)

So, after all that, I started the car once more... Only to have the SAME CONDITION!!!!
Bth the car, making puffs of ever increasing white smoke.... To the code reader telling me the #4 fuel injector circuit is open.

I AM AT WITS END! I do not know what more I can do. I have created an entirely new driver circuit for the injector, but it is not functioning as it should.
Additionally, when I run the bulb lines from the battery terminal, through to the driver Wire for the injector... With the car OFF, I can clearly HEAR the click click click of the injector. SO MY WIRING IS WORKING!!!!
So ......WTF?

Please help. What on earth coud it be?
Could it be a bad code reader? Could it be something more strange?
And WHY OH WHY does the car generate Soooooooo much water from the resonator? I the resonator in this van also the converter? There don't seem to be two units., just the one.
And the resonator appears to have a tiny hole at its forward facing base, which allows liquid to drain out. It should have Isis hole, right?

Thanks.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
The catalytic converter is at the flange where the exhaust pipe bolts to the rear exhaust manifold.

The hole in the resonator is called a weep hole and it's job is to allow condensation to drain.

Let's go back and see what the driver is doing with the engine running now. Leave the end of one lead on battery positive and then to the bulb, the other wire from the bulb to the number 4 injector wire at the PCM. Start it up and see what the light does.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay,
Here's what happened...with a tiny little qualifier...
1. During the previous process, I removed the paper lip from having been fully JAMMED into the #16 contact, because as I already had a wire spliced in to the #16 DRIVER LEAD only an inch from the modular plug itself. So...

With the splice wire still connected to the injector circuit, I touched the light lead to it. With the car off, it makes the injector click click click each time I touch it. If I keep it connected, it keeps the injector open, and allows too much fuel to just leak into the chamber, I think, because I smell a strong smell of gasoline after each time I do that.

But starting the van with it contacted does NOT LIGHT THE LIGHT IN ANY WAY. NOT A BLINK, NOT A FLASH... nothing.

So.... Now what do we do?

Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Unplug one of the injectors or the coil pack.

Take the bulb jumper wire from battery positive over to ground, take the second end to the ASD feed wire and see if the bulb lights up.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Have to pick up my son....be back in a few minutes....what is ASD?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
The ASD relay and circuit are what powers the coil pack and fuel injectors. This is the brown/white wire.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay,
I'm a little confused. I'm sorry.
The coil pack is the ignition coil pack? To which the spark plugs are connected? And to which the harness has a modular plug in the lower back?

And the brown white wire... Comes from underneath the power distribution center, And goes directly to several other connection points, but most importantly, ties into the wiring harness for the fuel rail.
I have already bypassed it with a new bypass wire entirely. Going from physically RIGHT NEXT TO the metal blade underneath the power distribution center, in that cavity, where the wire is crimped into the blade holder, uninterrupted to the fuel rail harness, and also independently TO NUMBER FOUR. so, technically, THREE wires transverse, not just two.
The two mains are the replacements of brown/white (power distribution center, or hot) and brown/tan (fuel injector drivers/ground, to the PCM)

So please clarify the ASD relay circuit. I'm so sorry to sound so stupid this far into it all..
Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
The ASD relay powers the coil pack and fuel injectors on the brown/white wire. I want to make sure this wire isnt' powered up with the key off. You've still got a wiring issue and it sounds like we're still going to need to pull the injector harness out as I wanted to in the beginning.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
6:27pm:
I'm ot sure where this message will appear in the string, so forgive me.
Here's the latest development.
Because i have the driver and ground leads for injector 4 coming right out to the front, I can connect, or disconnect injector 4 at will.

SO...

I disconnected injector 4entirely from the system, and started the car.

But here's the strange thing:
When I did this, the car performed exactly the same as it had all along.
MEANING, that the car ran "Lopey", ; missing one of six firings, but otherwise smooth and quiet.
BUT...
There is now NO WAY IN HELL that gasoline is being introduced into chamber 4... So why do I continue to have white smokey exhaust? And why can I not get injector 4 to be RECOGNIZED by the system when I DO connect it in?

The white rancid smoke concerns me GREATLY, because I'm now worried it might be coolant, but it does NOT AT ALL look, feel, or smell like coolant usually does when it comes from the exhaust. It's usually sweet, and smells at least SOMETHING like coolant. OR... IF IT COMES OUT AT ALL FROM THE DRAINAGE HOLE FROM THE RESONATOR, it would in some way resemble coolant, but the ONLY thing coming form the resonator drain hole is nearly clear WATER, with the faintest hint of being fouled from gasoline residue which had been in there previously.
No coolant, and no real GASOLINE dripping down..

What is going on with this car???

Thanks!, , Okay,
I'm a little confused. I'm sorry.
The coil pack is the ignition coil pack? To which the spark plugs are connected? And to which the harness has a modular plug in the lower back?

And the brown white wire... Comes from underneath the power distribution center, And goes directly to several other connection points, but most importantly, ties into the wiring harness for the fuel rail.
I have already bypassed it with a new bypass wire entirely. Going from physically RIGHT NEXT TO the metal blade underneath the power distribution center, in that cavity, where the wire is crimped into the blade holder, uninterrupted to the fuel rail harness, and also independently TO NUMBER FOUR. so, technically, THREE wires transverse, not just two.
The two mains are the replacements of brown/white (power distribution center, or hot) and brown/tan (fuel injector drivers/ground, to the PCM)

So please clarify the ASD relay circuit. I'm so sorry to sound so stupid this far into it all..
Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
It runs the same with the injector unplugged because the engine is still running on five cylinders.

You still have the smoke because the cylinder is wet and the exhaust system, manifold and catalytic converter are full of unburnt fuel from repeatedly running the engine with this injector stuck open.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Thats fair to say. Okay.
So now....
Here are several questions more. And you are doing a great job, and I truly appreciate it, really...

1. The rancid smell of exhaust, which is richly white, as the car warms up, is ---definitely gas, yes? And not coolant, right?!?!?
2. A long as I am intermittently running the car for no more than about 10 minutes in the garage, and not in DRIVE on the street, am I in any danger of burning up the catalytic converter?
3. Can this intermittent on/off program eventually clean out the white smoke efct and run smoothly? And cleanly again?

4: what on earth can finally make the car recognize the fully independent circuit that is injector 4???? It appears to be the only thing that will make the engine run evenly again, and begin to combust all the badness. What can we do that we have not already done?

Thank you so much my mechanical stranger!

-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
If it was burning coolant then it should be a sweet smell. With the white smoke along with the injector code I'm sure it's fuel burning.

Yes, there is danger of melting the catalytic converter with the engine running for any amount of time. It's filling the converter with unburnt fuel which is shortening it's life, the more it runs the more damage it will do.

With the injector unplugged the smoke will eventually clear up as all the fuel is burnt out of the places it has accumulated.

We've still got wiring shorted in the injector harness I believe, or possibly in the PCM. The fact that the injector was clicking when you were applying the test light tells us that something is still shorted somehow.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay; great information so far.
#%€£¥+$@ about the catalytic converter potentially burning out. F@CK!

Now, about the wires...
I must emphatically remind you:
#4 is entirely independently wired. It gets BOTH WIRES from OUTSIDE OF THE HARNESS!!!!!!!! both wires go directly to their sources.. Uninterrupted.

I'm thinking that although I spliced the PCM jumper an inch or so away from the PCM multi-pin monster plug, I should TRY LIKE THE DEVIL to get the paperclip, or some other connective metal IN TO THE PIN LOCATION, ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE MONSTER PLUG, (or essentially on the outboard side of what is otherwise the internal PIN NUMBER 16, inside the monster plug) this way, I can know for certain that there is literally NO INTERRUPTION to the PCM for complete signal of power for the driver circuit.
What do you think? Is it mighty likely -in all your years of service- that there is a short just an INCH away from the monster plug into the PCM?????
If it is.... I'm happy to struggle my ass off to get something in there. Unfortunately, I can't take it out and work on it on a bench. I have to work on it way in there, with no give or slack... But l'll DO IT, if that it really where the problem might be.

Also... Could it be that those F-ers in California sent me PCM THAT IS JUST AS BAD AS THE ONE I HAD???

:-)

Thanks,
-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.

The problem is the PCM could have been damaged by the short in the wiring harness. The wiring may be repaired but the replacement PCM could be bad now.

Either way, there's no way that applying power (through the test light bulb) could have made the injector click unless there was a short to ground in the circuit elsewhere. Something has the circuit shorted to ground at some point. You've cut the original driver wire at the PCM and injector both?

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Several things have happened since we last talked. Although I was reluctant before to jam a paperclip in before to no 16 I eventually did and found that my driver jumper - only an inch away from the pin itself - was indeed dead.
The paperclip, however, now jammed into the pin is even with the car off alive, and sending a signal through to the fuel rail harness, but oddly to something/somewhere other than no. 4. My quest right this minute is to find out just where it is going.
My firm belief is that once I find the outboard signal of that no 16 pin somewhere in the fuel rail harness that is the place I'll want to connect up my no. 4 circuit up to.
Correct me if that is not the best intuition.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Let's take this one step at a time.

At the PCM you have the number 4 injector wire coming out.

You've spliced a new wire to that wire.

Did you cut the original wire after the solder joint so it's no longer connected at the PCM?


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi,
Forgive me; we're just returning from dinner.
So, to answer your first question, at the PCM, where I had spliced in, I did NOT cut the brown/tan, at pin #16', as I instead terminated its other end at the fuel rail harness. So...effectively...the fuel rail harness does not know it exists.
BUT... this particular issue is now moot... Because I FOUND/discovered... That my splice was itself ineffective... Because while it -only an inch or so from the actual physical PIN #16-- was dead.... The paperclip jammed INTO THE PIN CAVITY, WAS LIVE!!!!

But...(there's always some complicating "but") I have found that PIN NUMBER 16 feeds through to fire injector number 5!!!! Which is SUPPOED TO BE FIRED BY PIN 15!!!! Which is brown/violet!!!

So I might have some kind of crossed wires! So I dismantled the plenum ONE MORE TIME....and SPECIFICALLY tested the light bulb trick, and it was setting off INJECTOR NUMBER 5!

And when I disconnected the #5 injector at its own plug...the firing clickety click stopped!

So.... Now I'm going to TAKE OUT THE FUEL RAIL HARNESS ONE (last?) time...to trace it out painstakingly, to MAKE SURE that pin #16 shoots its signal TO INJECTOR 4!!!!!!

Am I on the fit track here?

Oh, and by the way... Just in case I'm stupid:
Firewall side is 1,3,5 (cylinders, spark plugs, and injectors)

And radiator side is 2,4,6 RIGHT? Because the wiring schematic says that #4... According to the assigned colors...is indeed radiator side, and center. 2on the left and 6 on the right. (just checking my stupidity meter...just in case)

Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
I had a feeling the splice had an issue because you had a driver leaving the PCM but going no further.

You absolutely had to cut the number 4 driver wire at both ends for it to be taken out of the circuit after hard wiring. If it wasn't cut at the PCM then the short was still present, which is why we had the same results after I told you to cut it at both ends this morning.

Yes, take out the injector harness and open it up and see what's going on in there. I believe you will find that wires are either bare and shorted together or melted together.


Yes, the firewall facing bank is the odd cylinders, radiator side is the even cylinders.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay.
W probably won't have more to talk about until tomorrow morning, because it will be a bit of doing to get the harness out, and troubleshooted, and cleaned up and reinstalled but I seriously think IT IS THE HOLY GRAIL HERE.
I'll await your simple reply tonight... Which will then await my fully explanatory reply tomorrow after the harness is repaired. I'm excited that it might ACTUALLY WORK!!!

Thanks!
Have a great night!!!

-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
We'll hopefully have it running good again tomorrow, assuming the new PCM is still ok.

Have a great night yourself!


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
We have literally ib passed everything and have connected fuel injector 4 directly to the PCM by connecting the new lead wire directly to the paper clip jammed into the pin. When we do a dry firing test with the battery/bulb trick the injector clicks, when the engine is on and running we still have a fault code and the injector doesn't sound a hardy clicking when listening with a stethoscope. I am not sure what to do any more....help? What do you think?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Please do not open duplicate questions.


We needed to cut the original injector wire at the PCM, which I said to do first thing yesterday but you hadn't done it as of late last night. Have you cut the original wire yet?

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi,
I cut the original PCM wire, just below the splice (which is about an inch and a half from the actual PIN #16.) I CUT THE WIRE. It no longer goes to anything, AND is also cut at the other end, just beyond the 10pin connector at the fuel rail harness as well. It is---essentially--- just along for the ride. So...really (really?) it cannot create any sort of ground fault or interference, can it?

Now...
I also have A DEDICATED 16-gauge lead from the injector #4 all the way out to where it can connect directly to the spliced #16 pin, from the PCM.

Even with all this, though... The code P0204 still occurs.

I'm just not sure what to do next. I don't think there is anything left I haven't done.

But here's something to note:
When the car is running, if I do a light bulb test from the power lead for the fuel rail harness, (where the splice is) to the bulb, then to ground, it lights brightly.
BUT, when I run the bulb from the DRIVER wire spice location, through the bulb, and back to ground, I would expect that it would pulse on and off, as the injector pulses on and off. But it just glows fainnnnntly. And does not pulse.
Also, as I listen to my injectors with my auto mechanic's stethoscope, I hear #6 and #2 injectors going plinkety, plinkety plinkety....in a CLEARLY metallic pintle-hitting-orifice seat sound.
But my BRAND NEW #4 has this light plink sound. I'm not REALLY REALLY sure it is activating vigorously. It might be limping... But not CLINK CLINK CLINK FIRING.
I have already switched the injectors several times, with several switches being BRAND NEW injectors.

What have I done wrong? What have I wired wrong? It must be something.
Must be.

Thanks,
-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Set up the bulb and jumper wires from the battery positive post.

Unplug the number 4 injector, unplug the coil pack so the engine can't start.

Take the end of the second jumper wire from the bulb and go to the injector driver terminal in the connector and see what the light does.

Then turn the key on, see what the light does.

The crank the starter, see what the light does.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay. That's quite a set of stuff to do, but I'll tackle it and get back to you.

Other than the fact that I used 14 gauge wire for the substitute power wire, from the Power distribution block, and back to the fuel rail harness(instead of the factory 16 gauge wire) will this OR solder, or differing LENGTHS of wire affect the computer's interpretation of acceptable parameters for performance? Becaus the factory wires are -x- inches long, and are of all 16 gauge...
Will that screw things up enough to matter? And if so, won't it really affect all the injectors? Or not?

I'll do the tests and take notes. And get back to you as soon as possible.
Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
The length and size of the wire won't be a factor, poor solder joints could be.

You're welcome!



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Good answer.
My solder joints are inline interwoven (imagine a double helix) , then fluxed and then soldered through and through. Then excess flux wiped clean, to prevent acid deterioration over time. (so that won't be an issue)

As to length and gauge of wire, thanks.

I'm off to perform the tests you asked for..
More in a bit.

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Ok.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay.
Here's a complicated set of answers to the tests.
Set up as follows: Jumper from battery terminal to driver pin cavity in injector number four, (with injector plug removed, and all others still plugged in, and harness connected, but plenum removed.)

1. With engine off, and key off: no light-up at all.
2. With engine off, but key in ON position: no light up at all.
3. With engine cranking to try to start: no light up at all.

With same tests tried on other injector plugs:

No reaction in tests one and two, BUT IN TEST 3: the light pulses a low pulsing glow!!!

When I checked the feed side of the Same plug, (injector 4) there is DEFINITELY POWER COMING, in the engine cranking position.

So the only fault left is my driver wire. BUT EVEN WHEN I TRY TESTING THE DRIVER RIGHT AT THE PAPER CLIP, I GET NOTHING.
IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY that my brand new jumper is faulty... So where is my circuit fault????

I'll try anything you suggest!

Thanks
-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
If you don't get anything at the paperclip backprobing into the connector then the driver in the PCM has failed because of the wiring short that you had earlier. The tests we just did show that we've repaired the wiring problem, but putting the new PCM in with the wiring shorted damaged it too. Don't mention having a wiring problem to the company, and have this PCM warrantied.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
So you're saying I'll have to return it and demand a replacement?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Yes, the short in the wiring has damaged this PCM and it will need to be replaced.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Just great.
I'm concerned that they may not honor their warranty, because even as I received the rebuilt unit, it had stickers all over it, but they had been scored on the edges as though someone had already been inside it anyway.
They'll likely think ---I----did it, and voided their warranty!!!
And on top of it, the unit hasn't even been properly used, but is bad! Crap!

Well... I'll call them tomorrow morning, firs things and see what happens.
But you're SURE NOW, from these last tests we've done, that my wiring is just fine, and it's not the wiring, but the PCM?

If so... I'll say THANK YOU, and stay tuned for tomorrow's developments!

Thanks. I'll write to you as a follow up as soon as there IS a follow up!

-pjs

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
We know for sure that the injector has ASD voltage and the driver circuit is no longer shorted to ground. Assuming your solder joints are good then we've ruled out a wiring problem.

If you don't have a driver right at the PCM connector and the short is gone then the driver has failed and the PCM will need to be replaced again.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Ok. Well reconnect tomorrow .
Goodnight and thanks once again.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
You're welcome!


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi!
Well... I have great news, and some not as great news...
Here we go:
1. The new SECOND PCM Is here, and installed, and it works great. The car runs like a champ. Smooth as silk, and quiet. All injectors firing as they should. No doubt about it. And -SEEMINGLY- no gasoline streaming down into the works. My wiring redo worked outset great; despite the insistence from the PCM rebuilding company owner that " you simply cannot rebuild harnesses...you need to go b a replacement one".

2. As the car warms up, my white smoke issue comes back, and never goes away. Now, I MUST TELL YOU that I have turned the car on and off and on and off about 15 times, to try to purge the system from gas that might have been in the catalytic converter, Orin the resonator, etc. etc.

3. The car never generates water coming out of the weep hole anymore. And it never generates more than moist warmth coming out of the tailpipe. BUT IT IS STILL MAKING WHITE SMOKE.
and here's something else:

4. When I was examining things before, I would regularly pull the spark plugs here and there, to find that 2 and 6 were usually DRY as a bone, but 4 was often somewhere between soaked, and just simply wet looking way down in there.

5. Well now that the car has had a chance to run as long as ahalf hour in idle in the garage, and was still making white smoke generously when all warmed up... I got to thinking: what if everything is working fine, but my gasoline dumping adventure rinsed out chamber number 4 so f**king good, that I simply don't have ANY COMPRESSION in it Any longer, and so I'M NOT THOROUGHLY COMBUSTING ALL THE GAS????!!!!

So... I pulled 4 and 6 spark plugs. And sure enough.... 4 is wet and sludgy down in the hole, but 6 is dry and dusty.

Do I have a compression/low combustion issue?

Will it get better over time as I actually drive? Or not?

Is it even SAFE TO DRIVE in this condition?

Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.

I'm surprised they warrantied the PCM knowing there was a wiring issue when it was installed.

 

If it's running ok and not setting the injector code any more then go ahead and drive it. It might take 10-15 minutes of driving at highway speeds to get everything dried out and the smoke to clear up.

 

 

 

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Wow!
Wow!
You mean I might be headed in the fit direction AFTERALL?!?!?!?

So...you're NOT concerned that my #4 chamber looks greasy wet oily inside, even though the others look dry and essentially oil-less?

I ---did----take it for about a one mile drive on my street,can't it DROVE really well. But I was concerned about the gas thing.
But you seem to believe it might be okay... Right?

Otherwise... No codes whatsoever. And the engine runs quite strongly.

I will go by your advice. EVERY blog seems to suggest motor oil or coolant coming through but I'd like to believe it is Not that.

Is my low compression theory faulty?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.

If you had low compression then you'd notice number 4 missing. If it's running smooth you should be fine.

 

It's still going to be wet from all the fuel that was poured on it. If the smoke doesn't clear up after a test drive then we've got more problems, but at this point I'm not worried about it. If it was fine before and the injector code is no longer setting then I'm confident it will clear up when the engine and exhaust are held up to operating temperature for a while.

 

 

 

 

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi there,
Before this occurred, the car ran very nicely indeed. I have run the car in the garage... On and off...yesterday...for up to half an hour.
Each time, what happens is the same: it goes from cooling down some, and being restarted at a slightly cooled off temperature, running smoothly and smoke free...to warming up entirely, and then generating a consistent flow of whiteness.
Unstopping rancid white smoke.
But here is some hopefully telling information:
-it has almost NO water coming from the resonator weep hole anymore. None.
-it has nothing but moist air coming from the tailpipe (whereas before actual WATER came out)
-there is NO HINT of actual gasoline in any of the exhaust odor
-the exhaust, although white and rancid, passes this odd test: if I take an ordinary white generic unscented paper towel, and fold it to four layers, and literally HOLD IT OVER THE TAILPIPE, so as to cause the exhaust to be coffee-filtered by the paper towel... Upon removal, the towel has no moisture whatsoever; no oily residue, whatsoever; no radiator fluid residue, whatsoever, and NO lingering smell. Of any kind.
So I'm kinda sorta guessing you'll say the white smoke is a chemical off-burn of the catalytic converter, and nothing more.

Correct?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.

The smoke isn't going to go away for hours if you just allow it to idle in the garage. You have to drive it to get everything to operating temperature and keep it there long enough for everything to burn off.

 

 

 

 

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Great thanks..I'll let you know how it works out.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Ok.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Wow...
What a day it's been!
-the car eventually started..ran...cleared out the funky exhaust smell... And was seemingly fine. (although it's been leaking oil like a stainer)

So now... There's some new twist. It began only a half hour ago.
My wife drove the car all afternoon. With no problems... Until:

She went to restart it at a local shopping center, and it was a hard start. Starved for gasoline. Turning over and over and over... Eventually catching a little gas still there, and then running entirely normally.

She shut the car off, and went into a store, and called me.

I came over, and looked under the hood, and found nothing.

I started the car and got the exact same reaction. Car starts VERY HARD. STARVED FOR GAS... but then runs fine. We switched cars, and I drove her car home all the way. About 5 miles.

When I got back into my safety zone of the garage-repair-spot, I turned the car off and immediately tried to restart it. It hesitated a tiny bit, but restarted. Then, the second time, I waited longer. Tougher start. Third time longer still.... And really rough start. It's clearly starved for gas, but WHAT SPECIFICALLY is suddenly not working??? A fuse? The fuel pump? The fuel relay? The fuel pressure sensor?

And lastly... With the car fully warmed up, and examining the tail pipe... The exhaust is damn hot! Shouldn't it be relatively warm, not HOT??!!

Sheesh!!

Thanks,
-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
That sounds like it could be fuel pressure bleedoff, either back through the pump or through one or more injectors.

Had you replaced all injectors or just one or two?

Where they new, used, reman?


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I replaced 4 and 6 only. They were brand new. But the car was running fine. It started and ran and performed flawlessly in every yard; every mile. There was never any sign of trouble in starting, idling, or running, that indicated (to my prying ears) that there was any kind of imbalance issue with fuel delivery, or that the over or under compensation of old versus new was going to be a performance issue, or breakdown factor.

I await your response...

-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Try cooling the intake and fuel rail area with a garden hose, then cycle the key from off to on three times, pausing in the on position for a few seconds. See if it starts any easier.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay...
First off... Since the car has been sitting in the garage for a little while now, it's cooled down enormously...
Next, though, is my SERIOUS reluctance to introduce WATER...COOL WATER...into anywhere in the engine compartment, when the car is anything more than cool from an overnight cool down, or just started for a minute or so after that.

I worry about sensitive electronic and electric components, as well as cracking certain engine parts, because of the hot to instantly cold change, or the potential for accidentally introducing water into areas the engine surely does not LIKE water.

Are you quite certain it's safe to do this?
Can I use cool AIR instead?


Thanks,
-pjs
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
Air isn't going to help.

Your other option is to either remove the fuel rail and look for injector leakage with it pressurized or try replacing the fuel pump.



Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I'm grabbing some dinner before I tackle this problem. I'll get back to you later. Thank you.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 2 years ago.
You're welcome.


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi,
After we came home last night, I tried the car, and although it started with a little hesitancy, it eventually DID, and it ran completely normally.

This morning, I went out, started the car from a complete overnight rest and cool down, and it started almost normally. A moment of gasping for gas. Then started fine.
So, I tested for codes in the on, and running positions, and got ZERO codes.

So then I turned the car off and on for about fifteen minutes, with ever increasing intervals of off time. Each time the car started nearly normally. So I ----thought---maybe it was just bad gas.

But then I gave it about 30 minutes time off... And now it will not start to save my life. It turns over and over and over, but won't catch. It's as though there is absolutely no gas.

What now?

Aren't there some series of lesser electrical TESTS to know if it's a relay or fuse?

Thanks!

-pjs

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