Maybe I can help.
Which fuse box was replaced? Inside or under hood?
How did this happen?
Can you give me your engine size please?
under hood fuse box was replaced
how did it happen: Just happened out of the blue
engine size- 6 cylinder
a year ago car completely shut down problem traced then to an ignition switch problem and electrical expert fixed it He was working on car- suggested fuse box problem but then he had a car accident this week and is in a coma My great mechanic replace under hood fuse box
chysler dealer in area has no clue after 5 hours of working on car
car has 275,000 miles runs great gets 23 mpg on open road
I am looking up the wiring diagram for you
jp I want you to help I have to go to dinner and will be back in 2 hours Please evaluate problem and give me your best advice My mechanic is great and says to the best of their knowledge there are no experts left in the phila area who know how to solve these type problems, except the guy in a coma sadly
I will check back Please don't desert me Would be willing to pay a bit more money if your solution is verifiable and works
Just so you know, if brake switch under dash is disconnected brake light stays on
also my mechanic tried the switch in the steering column but it was not the problem
what is happening to the cluster?
Does the third rear brake light work?
i will do my best no worries
cluster is completely out no nothing all gauges
no brake lights work
sometimes briefly brake lights function properly ( after fuze box was replaced) but then malfunctions and brake lights stay on. I have to disconnect battery overnight
was hoping car would last to 500,000 miles This does not look good HA!
Give some time here. I will try to offer some other things to check.
to go further I want you to remove the brake light switch connector. I will send you pics
I am back Thanks
Tomorrow my van will be returned to my Mechanic If you can tell me all the things to try, I will ask him to do so.
But be aware that my mechanic disconnected the brake light switch under the dashboard by the brake pedal I guess but the brake light did not go out
Tell me what to do
Ok thank you.
That is what I wanted to know.
Fuse #24 under the hood. Does it recive power? here is the diagram.
I will repost shortly
Do you know if your technician replaced both pieces of the fuse center known as the intelligent power module?
The front control module is a printed circuit board based module with a on-board micro-processor. The front control module interfaces with other electronic modules in the vehicle via the Programmable Communications Interface (PCI) data bus (J1850). In order to obtain conclusive testing the Programmable Communications Interface (PCI) data bus network and all of the electronic modules that provide inputs to, or receive outputs from the front control module must be checked. All PCI (J1850) communication faults must be resolved prior to further diagnosing any front control module related issues.
The front control module was designed to be diagnosed with an appropriate diagnostic scan tool, such as the DRB III®. The most reliable, efficient, and accurate means to diagnose the front control module requires the use of a DRB III® scan tool and the proper Body Diagnostic Procedures manual.
Before any testing of the front control module is attempted, the battery should be fully charged and all wire harness and ground connections inspected around the affected areas on the vehicle.
As messages are sent over the PCI bus circuit, the front control module reads these messages and controls power to some of the vehicles electrical systems by completing the circuit to ground (low side driver) or completing the circuit to 12 volt power (high side driver). The following functions are controlled by the Front Control Module:
The following inputs are Received/Monitored by the Front Control Module:
NOTE: If the vehicle is not equipped with Name Brand Speakers (Infinity, etc.) or Headlamp Washers the DRB III® must be used to Disable the appropriate relays in the Intelligent Power Module Assembly.
The input from your brake switch is sent to the processor in the power module. In turn the power module sends power out threw a high side driver(transistor) to your brake lights. If the switch is unpluged and the lights still light the power module is shorted to voltage or transistor is melted to on mode keeping your lights on. There is also several inputs to your instrument cluster as well from the power module.
I would like to know if fuse #24 has power with the key on.
JP I will discuss with my technician I will ask him to check fuse#24 Where is fuse#24?
Is there anyway my mechanic technician can speak directly with you or is that not allowed here
Yes. Fuse #24 is under the hood fuse box. It shows a 20 amp rating and will be one of the red small H fuse type. THis is to diagnose further into the cluster issue. I feel you will need a "front control module" to fix the brake light issue. The cluster may be related to the module.
The Intelligent Power Module (IPM) is a combination of the Power Distribution Center (PDC) and the Front Control Module (FCM). The IPM is located in the engine compartment, next to the battery on this model(BATTERY THERMAL GUARD). The power distribution center mates directly with the Front Control Module (FCM) to form the Intelligent Power Module Fuse and Relay Center. The power distribution center (PDC) is a printed circuit board based module that contains fuses and relays, while the front control module contains the electronics controlling the intelligent power module and other functions. This intelligent power module connects directly to the battery positive via a four pin connector. The ground connection is via two other connectors. The intelligent power module provides the primary means of voltage distribution and protection for the entire vehicle.
The molded plastic intelligent power module housing includes a base and cover. The intelligent power module cover is easily opened or removed for service access by squeezing the two marked cover latches and has a fuse and relay layout map integral to the inside surface of the cover. This intelligent power module housing base and cover are secured in place by an intelligent power module mounting bracket. This mounting bracket is designed to allow the intelligent power module to rotate counter-clockwise once the locking tab is disengaged. The intelligent power module mounting bracket is secured in place by bolts threaded into the left front wheel house.
Replaceable components of the intelligent power module assembly are broken down into the following components: the Power Distribution Center (PDC) (without fuses or relays), the intelligent power module cover, the Front Control Module (FCM), the intelligent power module mounting bracket, intelligent power module bracket retaining clips and the Intelligent Power Module Assembly which includes the power distribution center, the cover and FCM. Refer to the Front Control Module in the Electronic Control Module section of this service manual for information on the front control module.
Please let me know what he finds with the fuse power. I will be checking the site threw out the day.
JP I will let you know later about the fuse power
Two questions If the fuse gets power what will that mean?
If the fuse does not get power what does that then mean?
My mechanic is concerned about buying a front control module and then finding out it is not the problem
Two questions If the fuse gets power what will that mean?
That would be good
If the fuse does not get power what does that then mean?
THis would be we need to investigate .
Mechanic tested all fuses with power on and all fuses were okay. Mechanic wants to know if he can call you.
Or if your prefer I can give you my mechanics telephone number and you can call him.
This system will not allow number combinations they block them.
So. I need the tech to flip over the power module and under fuse #24 with key on does 12v come from both sides.
Next this wire at the pin shown and color pin 17 white and tan strip wire.
does it have 12v with key on?
Here is the connector for pin
We can try a different location to test if you like?
JP Sorry for delay We had a 12 hour power outage here in Phila area where we live
We will get back to you after we try your suggestions BUT
We are not sure of Fuse Numbers The fuse box does not have numbers, just identification of different areas of car.
Could you send a diagram of fuse box showing fuse numbers so we can find # XXXXX Last time we check all fuses for power
Also, do not understand " Next this wire at the pin shown and color pin 17 white and tan strip wire does it have 12 v with key on" What does this mean ?
Ok thank you no worries.
The past post has diagrams in them I am providing the duplicate hear. Pin 17 in the diagram has a color code or wire color to it that it is white with a tan tracer.
Undo there IPM f fuse box under the hood so you can flip it over and you will find a black plug with 20 pins in it. Pin 17 is close to the end row. Connect your meters red lead there and the black to ground and turn on the key.
If you 12v and the brake lights are on let me know.
I will check in from time to time. I have work Monday- Friday.
Let me know if you need more detail. I would love to know what you get.
The system forbids phone #s
What is you Technicians work address and name
Very good I will look up the business phone. I am in Fl same time zone. Ask him when you can to see when he takes a break during the day Monday.
Let me know when you can call him on Monday and he will take the time to talk with you
His partner is Mike I will tell both of them
What do your initials JP stand for
I will give him your recent correspondence
I will tell Luigi and Mike that John from Florida will be calling Monday about Art's Chrysler van with a brake/light cluster problem
Luigi will be available to come to the phone when you call
JP John :Please call Luigi after 1PM Also, they work until 6-6:30 pm each night
How did your technician work out?
JP Luigi I think got to it late today He said he was going to be working on some "junction box?" under the dash - something that had corroded that you had wanted him to check out. Is that correct? I presume all the voltage stuff was checked out to your satisfaction
I will check with him in the morning
At my last conversation with Luigi he had not pulled in your van as of yet. Monday 5pm.
I am not sure what was the result of any tests. The diagnostic bus connector under the dash may have something to do with your cluster issue. I am not sure he really understands electrical in his words.
Let me know how else I can help.
JP As of today Luigi has not looked at the car again He promises to do so. We had 4-6 inches of snow yesterday so they backed up a bit I have used them for 10 years- very reliable and honest.
I will keep you informed and will advise where you can continue to help Luigi did say he will get you on the phone as he is further evaluating stuff.
I agree. Lets just see where it goes.
JP I saw Luigi this morning He says he will get to my car this afternoon SOOOO I gues you will hear from him today Let me know
JP If Luigi cannot resolve my problem by the end of the weekend, I will need to find someone here who can work with you to fix the car Do you know of anyone in the Phila area who can be trusted and who is an electrical expert on chrysler vehicles?
let me see who I can find.
Is Luigi not able t do the test?
He is just unsure what he is looking at?
It will most likely have to be Monday when most of the instructors are back at work.
I will have to stop any further outside contact with help on this site with your issue on your car. I have been flagged and do not want to lose my privileges here on the site. I am sorry. I can only offer information to help with a answer only here through this forum.
JP Luigi may today or tomorrow switch a Front Control Module from another chrsler van to my van, just to see if that is the source of the problem Is this a safe thing to do and is there some other programming that needs to be done to do this? What do you think?
Luigi said he had check voltages and they were not the 12 v you had suggested would show upif the car functioned properly
Let me know please and also try to find someone up here I can go to to work with you.
he can swap the FCM. I am hoping this is your issue.
JP We swapped the FCM this afternoon, turned on the ignition and nothing! So I presume that is not the problem.
Any further thoughts?
Nothing as in No brake lights or the same lights stay on?
I would like to know when he removed the FCM did the brake lights go out?
that would be a great help
Have him unplug this connector on the fuse box that the FCM is apart of and tell me if the brake lights go out.
For the past 24 hours the brake lights have not been on. They functioned properly before we swapped and after. Right now the car is parked in front of my house and the brake lights are not on. They function properly, at the moment.
The only thing at the moment that does not function is the cluster, which is totally disabled; no temp, tach, speedometer, gas gage, gear indicator etc.
I will see what happens during the next few days.
At the moment the cluster is completely out.
I am confused. The brake lights worked and don't work? I thought you said you have to remove the battery terminal over night?
I will look into the cluster for power.
Do the lights turn on in the cluster from the switch?
Sorry Before the fuse box was replaced the brake lights were on all the time and I removed the battery cable. After the fuse box was replaced the brake lights were on occassionally; sometimes for a day and then they would function properly. At all times the cluster has not functioned; no lights, no gages nothing.
So right now it would appear that the brake lights work normally ( for now) and the cluster is non-functioning. Two weeks ago when we first chatted, the cluster would start functioning for 10-15 minutes, but then go off but that was two weeks ago.
For what it is worth, after the fuse box was replaced, the brake lights would work normally for a while, but only after the battery cable was disconnected overnight.
Let me know
I will let you know each day if the brake lights continue to function properly.
Could the computer have re-set itself somehow?
I am going through the wiring diagram again.
I will repost
Can you check to see if the hazards flash on th cluster ?
Also the air bag light when you first turn the key on.
JP There are no lights on the cluster at all when the ignition is turned on.
Brakes continueto function properly so far.
Emergency flasher works properly but no turn signal lights in car function at all ( cluster has no lights) Emergency flasher- nothing in car indicates they are on
No airbag indicater lights function
For past two years LED lights in cluster have gone out, so at night I could not see anything.
A year ago, all power to car failed no nothing Car towed to the electrical guy who set up a bypass wire from ignition to somewhere with a wire to the fuse box, and car then worked He is the guy who was in the accident.
Currently brake lights work all cluster console lights and cluster gages do not work
in the post above and in this one you will find two wiring diagrams for the cluster.
Need to pull the cluster and check for power and grounds.
power brown wire red stripe
ground has two 1. black wire light blue stripe 2. black wire light green
Ok that is good for me.
Can we have him add power to the pin 6 at the back of the cluster connector. Please have Luigi have a 5 amp fused wire to provide the voltage at pin 6.
Let me now what happens.
JP Please explain what you mean. The cluster is disconnected. Should Luigi do this with the cluster disconnected? Sorry I do not understand your terminology
JP Luigi will use a 5 amp in line fuse and run power to pin#6. , connect the Cluster and see what happens We will do it this weekend We will let you know
How did you make out ??
JP Luigi won't be looking at it until tomorrow
I am buying a 5 amp in line fuse
Will let you know
Ok thank you
You can buy a "H" style fuse holder from auto zone ect.
let me know how you make out
JP ALMOST PERFECT Cluster now functions BUT speedometer and Tach do not work
With no power, all gages are below zero, (Gas and temp just slightly below zero) BUT the speedometer and Tach are way below zero. When power is turned on the Speedometer and Tach move up slightly but are way below zero and do not function at all. All other gages are ok.
Luigi ran a wire from pin 6 through a 5 amp fuse and then to the fuse box for power
Let me know what ya think.
Speedometer is not essential but it should work if possible.
I will be replacing all LEDs so I have light again at night.
Luigi has your phone number and with your permission I can call once all is resolved( if possible)
I am glade to hear that your cluster is still functional. Now there is most likely nothing wrong with the speedo or tach. Here is what you need to do. Remove the cluster, hold it in your hands and turn it upside down. Wait for the gages to point at 6:00 and turn the cluster so the needles continue to rotate counter clockwise until the needles hit there pointer stop. Some one had the cluster out and allowed the needles to rotate past their stops. I know it sound crazy but if you do what I say they will work again.
I can not make telephone conversation as this violates the rules of this site. I was not aware of this. I never had any one ask to do what you asked make a phone call. I was flagged for this by the administrator of the site. They have monitoring software to pick up on certain phrasing and words. With that said we can continue this way.
You are getting it Fixed!!
No lights work on the cluster??
No all lights work BUT over the course of the past 2 years the LEDs have gone out so at night I cannot see the cluster. Luigi pulled an LED and I am going to buy 8 of them to replace. Right now, the lights work on the cluster but thye background has not lit up in months Hope I am describing this
All gages work except the speed and tach
Ok so do you have cluster back lighting?
Does the transmission indicator light up?
Typically the LED light emitting diodes do not go bad.
Here is a diagram of the pin that receives power to the cluster for back lighting.
JP I pulled cluster rotated as you suggested and speedo and tach now work
I have no cluster backlighting In the course of the past 3 years the back lighting has gone out by section, one section at a time, and now there is no back lighting so I presume the LEDs went out over this period of time Car has 285,000 miles on it I presume changing the LEDs will solve the problem? Right
Well I see. The replacement of the leds may work you will have to try.
It looks as if you are all fixed up!
What else can I help you with?
JP Thanks for everything I will speak with Luigi I believe he knows how to get in touch with yo
I will get back to you
very good thank you
Ok Art thank you
When you are ready just click the accept button
Thanks again jp
GOOD NEWS BAD NEWS
GOOD NEWS: In dry weather there are no brake light or cluster functioning problems.
BAD NEWS: In wet snowy rainy weather, the cluster does not function.
Sometimes, when I put my foot on the brake, then the cluster functions for a while.
The only thing I can conclude is that there is a short somewhere which under wet conditions causes the above problems.
What do you think? Art
A short will blow a fuse or burn a wire or damage electronics in most cases. You have a bad connection and I believe you are losing communication to the cluster. Do any of the lights work when the gages are out?
JP Only the backlighting works All other light indications, gages do not function at all.
This "loss of communication" to the cluster you suggest ONLY HAPPENS WHEN IT IS RAINING/SNOWING. Otherwise when things dry out all is ok.
JP GOOD NEWS YOU ARE SOOOO SMART
I checked all fuses and the 5 amp fuse I put behind pin #6 at the cluster was blown, so I cghanged it and all things work now ( the cluster, brake lights, directional signals and flashers)
Luigi suggests I get a hose this weekend and spray water at various locations in the engine area to see if I can isolate where the short circuit occurs when it rains. Do you have any other thoughts?
Hard to say. THere is a terminal junction port that all the communication wires terminate. I believe you have a corroded connector in that location.
The bus termination block lives behind the brake pedal up against bulk head above the carpet line. If you look at the brake pedal and focus behind it you should see a black rectangular almost square box with wires only coming in from the back side. The cap end facing you has the termination connector in it. Carefully remove the cap and use electrical contact cleaner / lubricant on both halves. Reinstall the cap.
I had tried to get your tech to do this.
Ok Fuse is blown. Give a bit I will repost. I am looking at the wiring.
Can I change the cluster 5 amp fuse to a higher amount and if so how high? Art
The fuse needs to be a 20 amp red one. Can you tell me where the fuse holder is located?
Do not spray water into electrical components or in the engine compartment....
jp We put a 5 amp fuse just behind the cluster in the wire that runs to pin 6, per your advise. The other end of the wire feeds through the firewall to the fuse box under the hood and is attached to one of the fuses there.
Art You need to have the fuse located at the fuse box 6inch max from the power source. It is backwards. It is a fire hazard.
JP Long story here. After we ran power to the cluster, all seemed to be fine. However , after a heavy rain, the cluster stopped functioning ( the brake lights seemed to work fine) and the fuse we put in ( 5 amps) had blown, which I replaced.
I noticed that the drains from the grill below the windshield wipers ( both sides that drain through tubes) were not attached and water was dripping into the engine compartment by the fire wall- both sides. So i reattached with duct tape and after alot of water and then a mild rain, all systems seemed to work fine.
Last night it rained heavily from about 2 a.m. til now and this morning the battery was dead. When I jumped the car, it started, the cluster works fine BUT the brakes lights are now on all the time.
,I presume the car shorted somewhere due to moisture last night, the brake light went on and killed the battery. Upon jumping the car the cluster works fine.
So I presume there is still a short somewhere that causes the brake lights to go on ( sometimes) when there is alot of moisture in the air. ALSO, I just noticed that the fan motor ( heater fan) remains on very low speed when there is no fan power switch on, and even when the car is turned off altogether.
So JP I seem to have quite an electrical problem. The cluster works fine and when the air is dry all is fine but with a lot of moisture in the air there is a problem.
What do ya think?
JP The rain has stopped and I drove for 1 1/2 hours. The fan malfunction has disappeared and now the brake light operates properly.
Clearly there is a moisture related issue here which disappears when things dry out
give me some time to look at some other possibilities.
IS the AC manual or auto? Manual has only red and blue no numbers on it
JP The AC is manual and has not worked for 4 (four) years; something to do with the unit/part that is in the dashboard area on the passengers side. We tried everything to plug a leak in the a/c system but nothing worked Luigi said he has to get to it by taking the dashboard out Make any sense?
Anyway it is a manual system
The evaporator is leaking. You will need to remove the entire dashboard.
The blower circuit returns to the front control module. All your issues point to that location.
Art you really need someone who knows your van to work on it.
JP I don't understand why I now have the problem in wet weather but not dry weather. If the a/c is never on how can the evaporator be leaking.? Please expalin
Luigi can replace the evaporator but I am not sure that will solve all the other problems.
Maybe I should drive my car to Florida and let you fix it It has 285,000 miles on it It would be quite an adventure