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ricardo hohl
ricardo hohl, Instructor
Category: Chrysler
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Experience:  ase master/factory certified/and automotive instructor
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96 CIRRUS: Cranks but wont start..Checked relays & fuses twice.

Customer Question

96 CIRRUS: Cranks but won't start. Couldn't hear the fuel pump when I hit the key. Checked relays & fuses twice. I pulled the fuel pump figuring it was bad. I tested it direct off the battery, and it works fine. The low fuel light in the dash & the gauge works, but no power to the pump at the connector. Where do I go from here?
Submitted: 5 years ago.
Category: Chrysler
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.

do you have any spark, and does the engine light go on?

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
I do have an engine light. I just went & did a spark test & there is no spark. With no power at the connector & no spark, does that mean I have a computer issue?
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
well not necesarily, lest see , can you give me engine size.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

It's the 2.5 ltr

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok do you have a test ligth?
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

Yep

 

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok first we need to locate the shut down relay and test it for power and ground let me send you location and diagnostic procedure. i need you to check the a and b powers on the relay key on engine off. just look at the picture and ch
Diagrams
Main Relay (Computer/Fuel System)
Notes
Automatic Shutdown Relay Connector

 

 

eck a and b., with the test ligth.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Ok, I used my negative jumper lug as a ground & got light from both A & B.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
okey now check asd sygnal control with the test ligth.conector C.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
I got nothing from C. I checked D and got nothing there either.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok i forgat to tell you it only works while cranking the engine check again with engine cranking.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

Still nothing.

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
okey can you reverse the test ligth and check for ground sygnal on that same pin.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

By that do you mean, place the ground contact on the pin & touch my neg lug with the probe end of my light?

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
yes all you doing is reverse polarity and instead of checking for power you are checking for ground.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Ok. Nothing on C.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok, can you get a wire and jump terminal A and D, and check if fuel pump turns on.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Jumped A & D, turned key to "RUN" position. No pump.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok, i am going to send you another relay view .can you check power and grounds key on.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
Fuel Pump Relay
Notes
Fig. 1 ASD And Fuel Pump Relay Terminals

 

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Hey Ricardo, I have Power & ground on 30 & 86 only. No response either way on 85,87, & 87A
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
check 30 and 85 with test ligth .
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
I'm sorry, I have power & ground at 30 & 85 but nothing anywhere else.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
you mean you no have power and ground on 30 and 86? only 30 and 85? if you only have it on 30 and 85 that means that your missing power to 86 and that would be battery power. can you check 85 and 86 to see if you have power and ground.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

I verified power & ground at 85. also verified NO power or ground at 86.

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
it seems like you have a crank sensor problem. can you locate the crank sensor and check the connector for corr
Crankshaft Position Sensor Replacement
Notes

Fig. 9 Crankshaft Position Sensor


REMOVAL

  1. Remove speed control servo from driver's side strut tower.
  2. Remove crankshaft position sensor retaining bolt Fig. 9 .
  3. Pull crankshaft position sensor straight up out of the transaxle housing.
  4. Disconnect crankshaft position sensor electrical connector from the wiring harness connector.

INSTALLATION - ADJUSTABLE
Some vehicles may be equipped with an adjustable crankshaft position sensor. This can be identified by an elongated mounting hole in the sensor.

Fig. 10 Crankshaft Position Sensor And Spacer


If the removed sensor is to be reinstalled, clean off the old spacer on the sensor face. A NEW SPACER must be attached to the sensor face before installation. If the sensor is being replaced, confirm that the paper spacer is attached to the face of the new sensor Fig. 10 .

  1. Install sensor in transaxle and push sensor down until contact is made with the drive plate. While holding the sensor in this position, install and tighten the retaining bolt to 12 Nm (105 in lb) torque.
  2. Connect crankshaft position sensor electrical connector to the wiring harness connector.
  3. Attach connector to heater tube bracket.
  4. Install speed control servo. Tighten nuts to 9 Nm (80 in lb) torque.

INSTALLATION - NON-ADJUSTABLE

  1. Install sensor in transaxle.
  2. Install and tighten the retaining bolt to 12 Nm (105 in lb) torque.
  3. Connect crankshaft position sensor electrical connector to the wiring harness connector.
  4. Attach connector to heater tube bracket.
  5. Install speed control servo. Tighten nuts to 9 Nm (80 in lb) torque.

 

ution and if you can possibly replace it.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
It's too dark out side to see. I'll have to try in the morning. Can I check back in the morning after I check the crank pos snsr?
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
yes ill talk to you tommorow.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX good night.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
same to you
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Hey Ricardo, are you there?
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
yes i am.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
I changed the crank position sensor ( that was a task). I checked power & ground at the fuel pump relay. Now I have power & ground at 30 only.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok just reconnect your relay and crank. see if it starts
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Nope... still no power to the pump. I have the pump out of the tank still. Currently, I can powr the pump if I hook it up direct to the battery. But at the connector near the tank, all I have is the idiot light & the gauge working.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
can you check with a test ligth conect the test ligth betwing 85 and 86 and turn key to on and see if any power.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
i got power & ground back at 85. So I'm back to where I was. Checked power & grnd between 85 & 86 and got nothing.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.

can you get a wire and put battery power to 86 and install relay on top with the wire on 86 and check fuel?

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Hey Ricardo, Are you there? I ran a jumper wire from the positive side of the battery to the top side of 86 & was able to get the pump to run. It runs constant though. ( key on or off)
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
good that means the fuel pump is okey and all the wires from the relay are also ok. know let me see the relay and figure out why is not switshing power, give me 10 minutes.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Thanks Bud, I apologize for the delay.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
is ok as long as we find the problem. 86 is supposed to be key on power from the ignition switch. can you grab that wire and instead of putting it to the battery then connect it to a fuse that has power only with ignition on.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Yes sir, stand by.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok .
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Ok, I hooked 86 up to the "radio" fuse inside the driver's fuse panel. I was able to power the pump while in accessory position as well as the start position. It seems like I might have a bad ignition switch. Because when I have it in the run position, the power goes away. BUt I can move the key between the run & off position & power the pump for just a split second then it goes away again. Could the switch be my whole problem?
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
yes it could be the switsh and also the wire. i am glad you got that one it was a tough one!.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
Ok I'll replace the switch & get back to you. Have a good night. Talk to you soon.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.

good nigth.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
hey Ricardo, sorry for the delay. I replaced both the ignition switch & the key switch. Nothing has changed since I talked with you last. I still have nothing in the run position. The fuel pump will come on in the start position and in the accessory position only.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
hey how you doing!, sorry about the you continue to have this problem but its verry unusual, any way lest continue, can you check for a crancking fuse at the pdc outside at the engine compartment that is the name crank fuse.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
checked them all again. all good. I can rotate the new key switch from"OFF" to "RUN" & get nothing. But I have noticed that if I slowly move the key back toward the "OFF" position, the pump comes on for a split second right at the "cam-over" point. Does that make sense?
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
didn't you said you replace the ignition switch?, that is a symptom of ignition switch.lest check ignition switch output while cranking can you do that with a test light at the find a fuse any fuse that works with accessory key and check if power is also on wile cranking.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.

remember, I ran a jumper wire from terminal 86 at the fuel pump relay to my stereo fuse inside the car. because 86 had no power. that is how we got to where we were able to get the pump to come on like it does now.

But the pump should come on in the run position. not the accessory position or the start position. right?

I understand the pump is coming on in the accessory position because I have the jumper hooked to the stereo fuse. But it should still come on in the run position not the start position.

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
LET ME PULL OUT THE RELAY AND WIREING ON THIS CIRCUIT AGAIN AND GET BACK TO YOU.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
thank you brother for you help.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok can you perform this test ? TESTING
The following procedure applies to the ASD and fuel pump relays.

  1. Remove relay from connector before testing.
  2. With the relay removed from the vehicle, use an ohmmeter to check the resistance between terminals 85 and 86. The resistance should be between 70 to 80 ohms .
  3. Connect the ohmmeter between terminals 30 and 87A. The ohmmeter should show continuity between terminals 30 and 87A.
  4. Connect the ohmmeter between terminals 87 and 30. The ohmmeter should not show continuity at this time.
  5. Connect one end of a jumper wire (16 gauge or smaller) to relay terminal 85. Connect the other end of the jumper wire to the ground side of a 12 volt power source.
  6. Connect one end of another jumper wire (16 gauge or smaller) to the power side of the 12 volt power source. Do not attach the other end of the jumper wire to the relay at this time. WARNING: DO NOT allow ohmmeter to contact terminals 85 or 86 during this test .
  7. Attach the other end of the jumper wire to relay terminal 86. This activates the relay. The ohmmeter should now show continuity between relay terminals 87 and 30. The ohmmeter should not show continuity between relay terminals 87A and 30.
  8. Disconnect jumper wires. Replace the relay if it did not pass the continuity and resistance tests. If the relay passed the tests, it operates properly. Check the remainder of the ASD and fuel pump relay circuits. Refer to Electrical Diagrams .

 

you will need a volt meter if not let me know.
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
here is the relay
Fuel Pump & ASD Relay Test
Notes

Fig. 1 ASD And Fuel Pump Relay Terminals


OPERATION
Terminal number 30 is connected to battery voltage. For both the ASD and fuel pump relays, terminal 30 is connected to battery voltage at all times.

The PCM grounds the coil side of the relay through terminal number 85.

Terminal number 86 supplies voltage to the coil side of the relay.

When the PCM de-energizes the ASD and fuel pump relays, terminal number 87A connects to terminal 30. This is the Off position. In the off position, voltage is not supplied to the rest of the circuit. Terminal 87A is the center terminal on the relay.

When the PCM energizes the ASD and fuel pump relays, terminal 87 connects to terminal 30. This is the On position. Terminal 87 supplies voltage to the rest of the circuit.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.

k- let me try this. I will talk to you tomorrow.... thanks man

p.s. the diagram has a misprint... is 85 / 86 correct on the plug? or is it correct on the relay? (in the picture)

Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
yes i see you are going to have to look at the relay the number is XXXXX on the prom side
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
k talk to you later
Expert:  ricardo hohl replied 5 years ago.
ok.

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