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Matt J
Matt J, Chevy Technician
Category: Chevy
Satisfied Customers: 1399
Experience:  10+ years automotive tech, 5 years of experience in a GM dealer
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2002 chevy s10 4.3 - just rebuilt motor, dropped it in, hooked

Customer Question

2002 chevy s10 4.3 - just rebuilt motor, dropped it in, hooked everything up, turn key... and nothing, hook up OBD2 scantool... nothing, disconnect pcm - same behavior...

after i installed the starter and connected battery (first time) the motor began cranking as soon as i touched the terminal to the battery. the tab on one of the electrical connectors had touched another connector on the starter. correctd this issue and now i am at the point stated above... so i know the starter is good and the engine "will" crank... ;)

please help?
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: Chevy
Expert:  JHoop replied 4 years ago.
Hello Josh, my name isXXXXX you for choosing justanswer.com. I uploaded the procedure in .pdf format here to justanswer. Does the check engine light come on with the key in run? Does scanner read out. Take a look at this chart. You can download it by clicking HERE. I hope this helps you. If you have any more questions or need any more diagrams, please don't hesisitate to ask...Thanks again, JHoop
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

The truck will no longer crank... nothing happens when i turn the key. it only cranked when i had the connecters arked on the starter.

 

the SES light comes on when the ignition is ON. also when the pcm is dissconnected.

 

it is like the pcm isnt turning on but all the lights and whatnot have power

 

the scantool says "please connect to vehicle" and the tool works fine in other vehicles...

Expert:  JHoop replied 4 years ago.
Have you double checked every fuse in both fuse panels?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
yes...
Expert:  JHoop replied 4 years ago.
I'm going to put your question back up and see if anybody else has any info on this. Sorry I couldn't help you further. I'm sure someone will be with you shortly. Thanks again for choosing justanswer! JHoop.
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Hello my name is XXXXX XXXXX I will be more than happy to assist you.

 

Do you have a test light?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
yes...
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Hook the test light lead to clean metal surface and touce the test light to the large cable connected to the starter. Does the test light light?

Now touch it to the post the small wire goes to on the starter while someone turns the key to the start position. Does the test light light?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

i'll try now...

 

also, why wont my scantool see my pcm? (see above ↑)

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
There is a chance the starter and PCM problem are related. Since the starter circuit is the easiest the test we will start there and see what we find.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
tried it... light on big post, nothing on small post while key turned to START...
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

sorry for the delay.

 

Check and make sure the IGN C 20 Amp and IGN A 40 Amp fuse is not blown in the under hood fuse block.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
both good
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Place your hand on the starter relay and have some one try to start the vehicle. Do you feel the relay click?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
no
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Remove the Crank fuse and see if it is blown. If not put it back in and see is there is power at it when you turn the key to the start position.There are metal tabs on the fuse you can touch the test light to, to verify power.with out takeing the fuse out

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
it gets power when the key is turned
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Remove the Starter Relay. use the test light and test all 4 slot the relay prongs fit into for power. Do this test while holding the key to the start position. How many of the slots light the test light up?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

ign on - top left (from drivers side) makes headlights come on, top right has power

ign START - above plus bottom right

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

So you have power at 2 of the 4 slots. Great. The headlights coming odd but helps confirm my answer.

 

After you put the engine back in you must have missed connecting a grond wire or did not tighten the bolt. The Starter Relay and PCM both get there ground at the same point # XXXXX in the picture below G102 and G103

 

If that is not the problem let me know, but it should be.

 

Object Number: 614485  Size: LF

 

(1)A/C Compressor Clutch Diode, S103, and S104
(2)Throttle Position (TP) Sensor
(3)Idle Air Control (IAC) Valve
(4)S102
(5)Distributor
(6)S116
(7)G102 and G103
(8)S152
(9)Knock Sensor (KS)
(10)G105 and G104
(11)Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor
(12)Fuse Block - Underhood Connector C2 (BLK)
(13)A/C Compressor High Pressure Switch
(14)A/C Compressor

Matt J, Chevy Technician
Category: Chevy
Satisfied Customers: 1399
Experience: 10+ years automotive tech, 5 years of experience in a GM dealer
Matt J and other Chevy Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

i'll check it out tomorrow...

 

Thanks for your help. i will thorw in a bonus for your time.

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Keep in mind there is either 2 to 4 wires that ground there.

 

Let me know what you find and if everything is working.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

those to lines are grounded correctly.

 

just to clarify... the starter relay pins:

key off - 1 pin has power

key on - 2 pins have power (grounding new pin make headlights come on)

key START - 3 pins have power

remaining pin is ground

 

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Show me which pin have power. In the picture below standing at the drivers side tire looking at the starter relay. toy have pins 85, 86, 87, and 30

 

Which pins have power and when?

 

graphic

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

85 - pwr when ign START

86 - pwr when ign ON

87 - GROUND

30 - pwr when ign OFF

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Right now disconnect you battery, you should never have power at #30 like that.

 

I will load up more info while you do that.

 

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

done...

 

what could cause that?

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Im sorry 30 Should have power at all times.

 

86 should not have power that is the ground side of the relay that goes to the ground on the block.

 

85 Should have power when cranking

 

87 goes to the starter.

 

Unhook the starter connections, connect the battery and see if keep getting power at 86.

 

If you do let me know because there is a ground problem and I will load up all the places there are ground wires.

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
i used the numbers on the relay not the diagram, so switch 85 and 86
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

either way there should not be power at 86

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

i'll check tomorrow...

 

can u send the diagram of ground wires? i'll verify those also...

 

thanks.

Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Sorry for the delay on the ground locations. The # XXXXX the picture will tell you what # XXXXX ground is in the picture. Some of these grounds may not be on your vehicle.

 

 

G106 # XXXXX / G118 #5
Object Number: 354759  Size: LF

 

 

G108 # XXXXX / G101 # XXXXX / G110 # XXXXX Object Number: 803018  Size: LF

 

G112 # XXXXX / G100 # XXXXX

Object Number: 612447  Size: LF

 

 

G111 # XXXXX


Object Number: 354580  Size: MF

 

G107 # XXXXX


Object Number: 206654  Size: LF

 

G102 & G103 # XXXXX / G105 & G104 # XXXXX

Object Number: 614485  Size: LF

 

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I have been quite busy the past few days and am just now getting back to this...

i just printed these out and will be verifying them now.

i wil let u know how it works out.

i am going to accept your answer now to pay you for your time thus far. if i need additional help and you are further able to answer my questions i will pay u additionally...

Thanks (Matt J)

- XXXXX XXXXX
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
No problem and let me know if you run into any problems
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
i verified the grounds and they look good and check good with a light. i also ran a jumper from them to the neg battery term (for testing purposes) and still no luck...

still does not see pcm when i connect scan tool and no crank...
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Jump #30 to # XXXXX Does the starter crank the engine?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
yes
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Which one kick the head lights on?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
with the ign is ON grounding 86 turns the headlights on
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Does it turn the headlights on when the ignition switch of off?

 

Also does it turn just the low beams on?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
it does not turn the headlights on when the ign is OFF
and yes just the low beams
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Do the headlights work when you turn the headlight switch on?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
no
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Remove the HDLP PWR Relay. Now turn the ignition on and ground #86 for the starter relay do the headlights come on now?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
no

with the relay in i hear a "click" in the relay when the headlights come on
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
So you removed the HDLP PWR relay and then grounded # XXXXX for the starter relay, turned the key on and the head lights did not come on like they were when you grounded that slot before correct?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
correct
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

 

There has to be a ground wire off at the back of the block, not connected correctly, or the wire got cut. Normally when you turn the key on the headlights should come on, but they are not. Both the Headlight relay and starter relay have the same ground wire plus a few others componnets. When you ground #86 it is giving the Headlight Relay the ground it need to work correctly.

 

Try you turning on the windshield washer pump I bet either it will not work or the head lights will come on.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
wipers work but no washer pump
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
Yep either the ground wire is not grounded or it got cut.

give me about 20 min to get home and I will show you what wire it is and then we will splice into it and ground it to see I everything starts to work.
Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

Remove the Fuse Block. The Gray connector on the fuse box locate Slot F7 Black wire. Splice a wire into that wire and ground the other end. Now try to start the vehicle.

 

 

  • Disconnect the battery negative cable. Object Number: 182736  Size: SH

  • Remove the battery positive cable cover.
    Object Number: 197383  Size: SH

  • Remove the battery positive cable bolt.
  • Remove the battery positive cable from the underhood electrical center.
    Object Number: 182740  Size: SH

  • Remove the bolts that attach the underhood electrical center to the underhood electrical center support bracket.
    Object Number: 197403  Size: SH

  • Loosen the bolts that secure the electrical connectors to the bottom of the underhood electrical center.
    Object Number: 197410  Size: SH

  • Disconnect the electrical connectors from the underhood electrical center .
  • Remove the underhood electrical center from the vehicle.
  •  

    Object Number: 362761  Size: CH

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    that wire is hot...
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    What do you mean by hot? Hot to touch or hot there is power

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    power
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
    Is it a black wire?
    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    yes
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    Did it arc on you when to grounded the wire and was the key in the on position?

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    scratch that... i was doing it wrong...

    when done correctly = fuel pump kicks on and headlights work properly. also, engine will crank

    however, scantool does not see pcm
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
    Follow the black wire thought the harness, you should run into where it is broke and you will probably find more broken wires like the ground wire for the PCM
    Customer: replied 4 years ago.

    i must have overlooked the second set of grounds (4 total, 2 pairs) behind the block. got it grounded to the head now. used a multimeter to verify that one of them was the same wire as the one i spliced into.

     

    currently, the motor will crank, the headlights work, fuel pump turns on, etc. all electronics seem to work except i still cannot see the pcm with my scan tool...

     

    i am going to put the remaining componets in (spark plugs and wires, air intake, etc.) and see if it will start...

     

    not being able to run diagnostics is kind of bothering me though...

    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    Sorry for the delay I was out of town.

     

    Great you did find a few missed ground wires. I have missed them myself doing intake gaskets before.

     

    Check and make sure fuses ECM B and ECM 1 are not blown, also with the key on make sure you have power at them.

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    ENG 1 and ECM B fuses are good and both have power with ign ON
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    What type of scanner is it?

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    it is an ACTRON OBDII AutoScanner that i rented from autozone... works fine in other vehicles
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    Check and see if the CIGAR LTR 15 Amp Fuse is Blown. That scanner has to have power from the vehicle to work and it gets it's power from slot 16 on the vehicle Data Link Connector.

     

    If the fuse is good then check and see if you have power a slot 16

     

    graphic

     

    If you have power there then you are still missing a ground wire at G105 and G103. just to verify use a volt meter and touch the leads to #16 and #5 then to #16 and #4 on the data link connector. Do you have voltage?

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.
    that fuse is blown and blows immediately when i replace it...
    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    You have a wire pinched some where or the cigarette lighter is bad. Connect your test light to battery positive, remove the fuse and touch the test light to the metal prongs the fuse fits into. which every prong lights the test light up mark it or remember it.

     

     

    Before we get to deep into looking for this wire, have you replaced and thing inside the vehicle, radio, steering when dash, ect...?

     

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.

    i have an aftermarket radio i put in while the motor was out... shouldnt be an issue but i will disconnect it for troubleshooting purposes...

     

     

    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    It won't be the wiring to the radio, there is a chance when you put it in you pinched the wire harness.

     

    Hook the test light to battery positive, remove the fuse and touch the test light to each slot the fuse fits into. The test light should light at one of the slots. Remember which slot light the test light for further testing.

     

    Is there anything in the socket for the cigarette lighter if so remove it and test the fuse slot and see if it lights.

     

    Remove the radio, move the wire harness around, and test the fuse slot. does the test light still light up?

    Customer: replied 4 years ago.

    so about 2 years ago i snagged a cigarette lighter out of a FORD at work to put in my truck because i didnt have one... it never worked in my truck and i didnt bother to investigate or take it out of the socket... LOL

     

    when removed from the socket and fused replaced - scantool reads (with no error codes)

     

    it is about to snow here and the truck is outside so i wont be back on it for a couple days. i will try to get it wrapped up and i will let u know how it works out.

    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.
    Cool you found that problem. Let me know what happens. I will be off and on between Wednesday and Sunday.
    Matt J, Chevy Technician
    Category: Chevy
    Satisfied Customers: 1399
    Experience: 10+ years automotive tech, 5 years of experience in a GM dealer
    Matt J and other Chevy Specialists are ready to help you
    Customer: replied 4 years ago.

    i got it figured out now. thanks for your help. you have been extremely valuable. i am accepting to pay you a second time for you help.

     

    New problem: if you would like to try for three???

     

    the motor starts and runs 'decent' but not great. throws code P1345 (Manufacturer Controlled Ignition System or Misfire). ive done some research and it appears to be related to the timing or crank & cam out of correlation.

     

    as part of my rebuild i installed an aftermarket camshaft (COMPCams) and was told i would need to reprogram my PCM to accommodate. They did not mention anything about timing or it throwing trouble codes...

     

    do you think the issue is related to my PCM not compensating for the new cam correctly or would it just be that the mechanical timing is not correct?

     

    this weekend i plan to pull the distributer and re-insert it one spline adv or ret to see if that helps...

    Expert:  Matt J replied 4 years ago.

    Doing a CKP System Variation Learn Procedure may fix the problem, but I am not sure since you have a aftermarket Camshaft installed. The procedure does require a scan tool the can do the CKP System Variation Learn Procedure. Here are the instructions.

     

    Crankshaft Position System Variation Learn

      Important: For additional diagnostic information, refer to DTC P1336 .

    1. Install a scan tool.
    2. With a scan tool, monitor the powertrain control module (PCM) for diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). If other DTCs are set, except DTC P1336, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List for the applicable DTC that set.
    3. With a scan tool, select the crankshaft position (CKP) variation learn procedure.
    4. Observe the fuel cut-OFF for the engine that you are performing the learn procedure on.
    5. The scan tool instructs you to perform the following:
      Block the drive wheels.
      Apply the vehicles parking brake.
      Cycle the ignition from OFF to ON.
      Apply and hold the brake pedal.
      Start and idle the engine.
      Turn OFF the A/C.
      Place the vehicles transmission in Park (A/T) or Neutral (M/T).
      The scan tool monitors certain component signals to determine if all the conditions are met to continue with the procedure. The scan tool only displays the condition that inhibits the procedure. The scan tool monitors the following components:
      - CKP sensor activity--If there is a CKP sensor condition, refer to the applicable DTCs that set.
      - Camshaft position (CMP) sensor activity--If there is a CMP sensor condition, refer to the applicable DTCs that set.
      - Engine coolant temperature (ECT)--If the ECT is not warm enough, idle the engine until the ECT reaches the correct temperature.
    6. With the scan tool, enable the CKP system variation learn procedure.

      Important: While the learn procedure is in progress, release the throttle immediately when the engine starts to decelerate. The engine control is returned to the operator and the engine responds to throttle position (TP) after the learn procedure is complete.

    7. Slowly increase the engine speed to the RPM that you observed.
    8. Immediately release the throttle when fuel cut-OFF is reached.
    9. The scan tool displays Learn Status: Learned this ignition. If the scan tool does NOT display this message and no additional DTCs set, refer to Symptoms - Engine Mechanical in Engine Mechanical. If a DTC set, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List for the applicable DTC that set.
    10. Turn OFF the ignition for 30 seconds after the learn procedure is completed successfully.

     

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    Matt J
    Matt J
    Chevy Mechanic
    1399 Satisfied Customers
    10+ years automotive tech, 5 years of experience in a GM dealer