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DaveTheCarGuy
DaveTheCarGuy, Car Enthusiast
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Experience:  AAS in Automotive Technology.
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suzuki forenza linkage issue

Customer Question

 


I'm having the same issue as below could you help me


http://www.justanswer.com/car/81g0f-2007-suzuki-forenza-speed-manual-transmission.html

Submitted: 11 months ago.
Category: Car
Expert:  Greg replied 11 months ago.
Name isXXXXX goal is to provide you with excellent service – if you feel you have gotten anything less, please reply back,

So you can only select Reverse gear is this correct .

What did you do just replace the clutch .

Rgds Greg
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

No But it only seems to want to go in reverse I think i found forward gears it moves forward but just about stalls I'm assuming because it's a higher gear. I replaced clutch pressure plate and throw out bearing..

Expert:  Greg replied 11 months ago.
Hi Derrick

On the transmission there are shifter linkage are the links all tight any play at all will cause selection problems .

Greg
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Yes they are all add tight as possible. I've adjusted it twice according to the manual and it still doesn't work. On the link i provided it seemed the other tech provided an answer can you not pull that up

Expert:  Greg replied 11 months ago.
Hi Derrick .

I will put you onto my fellow expert that has that information for you .

Please do not reply as this will lock out the expert from assisting you.

Greg
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Hello??


 

Expert:  Walt-mod replied 11 months ago.
Hi,

I’m a moderator for this topic. It seems the professional has left this conversation. This happens occasionally, and it's usually because the professional thinks that someone else might be a better match for your question. I've been working hard to find a new professional to assist you right away, but sometimes finding the right professional can take a little longer than expected.

I wonder whether you're OK with continuing to wait for an answer. If you are, please let me know and I will continue my search. If not, feel free to let me know and I will cancel this question for you.

Thank you!
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Well I'm gonna be honest. I not satisfied so far. I provided a link to the same problem as I'm having and the technician answered it. Not trying to be rude but why can't be answer it or you guys pull up the answer..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
Hello,

My name is XXXXX XXXXX I will try and help you today. Let me start by apologizing that your problem has not been answered yet. I checked the link you posted, and it was not a solved issue. The expert in that question posted the adjustment directions (that should be the same as the ones in your manual) and the customer never came back. This usually happens when a customer gives up and takes their vehicle to a shop. Customer's will accept and answer or leave positive feedback if their issue is resolved.

That being said, it sounds like you have a clutch issue more than a linkage issue. To verify the linkage is ok, lift the front wheels of the vehicle off the ground and secure the vehicle. With the engine off, try to shift through the gears, some will be more difficult than others, but if you feel it engage through the shift lever your linkage is OK. If you feel confident in your securing of the vehicle (ensure it will not move as falling while doing this could end with personal injury or death), you can do this with the engine running. Try gently shifting without the clutch. With the engine at idle, it should be able to slide into gear without any "grinding". Now see if applying the clutch pedal makes any difference in the shifting. If not, then you have a clutch issue. If the shifting gets easy with the clutch, then it may be a linkage issue.

The other thing that leads me to this is that clutch master or slave cylinder issue is he fact that they are extremely common on your year of Forenza.

Please answer these questions so I have more information for the answer:

Did you replace the clutch master or slave cylinder?

Did you bleed the clutch hydraulic system during service?

What was the cause/symptoms that lead to the clutch replacement in the first place?

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

The only things I replaced were the clutch disc pressure plate and throw out bearing. After that I bleed the system and it seems fine. A friend asked me to change the clutch because a dealer said it was bad. He brought it to me and when I'd push in the clutch and tried to start it it acted as if the clutch wasn't pushed in and would creep forward upon cranking it over. I took it apart and the clutch disk seemed decent and the pressure plate too but with a lot of burn spots. Now that it's back together when I do adjust it Per the manual it tells me to put it to the left of center and push in the pin on the trans then tighten the shift rod. Well when I do that neutral is reverse and I can't actually put it in the true spot of reverse it won't go that far to the left and I have yet to find neutral or first it's just higher gears that make the car stall out.

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
Hello,

Sorry for the delayed response, that original symptom sounds more like a failed master or slave cylinder than a worn clutch. Worn or failed clutched normally just slip. Failure to release is an issue the clutch hydraulic system. But if the clutch is releasing enough for you to get it into high gear (which is what your explanation sounds like) then it stalls when you are releasing the clutch, then you are right that the linkage may be your issue.

I don't have an image in front of me, but sometimes the two cables can be switched, verify that they are the correct ones. Also, try holding the shifter at less than all the way left. Try halfway between center and full left.

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

I didn't think it sounded like a clutch issue either but figured I'd put it in since he bought it. I can get it in reverse with no problem and it moves easily. It doesn't have any cables what do you mean by that. I just can't understand why it won't line up. Could I have done something wrong putting it back together. I mean i don't think so cause it moves but I just can't believe a linkage could be this difficult...

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.

Here are the directions from GM, Hope this helps:

 

 

  • Disconnect the negative battery cable.
  • Position the gearshift lever into NEUTRAL.

 

Important : All the gears must be easy to engage when the vehicle is stationary, the engine is running, and the clutch is disengaged.

 

  • Loosen the rod clamp bolt.

 

4. Turn the gearshift rod to push the adjusting pin.

 

 

5. Remove the boot from the console.
6. Pull the boot upward to expose the shift control lever mechanism.
7. Position the gearshift lever close to left side of the NEUTRAL position.

8. Insert a 5 mm (0.2 inch) gauge pin into the holes to align the gearshift lever with the gearshift lever housing.

 

 

9. Tighten the rod clamp bolt.

 

Tighten
Tighten the rod clamp bolt to 14 N•m (124 lb-in).

 

 

10. Turn the gearshift rod to release the adjusting pin.
11. Remove the 5 mm (0.2 inch) gauge pin from the gearshift lever.
12. Install the boot to the console.

 

 

Let me know if this helps at all.

 

Thanks,

Dave

Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Yeah did that exact procedure three times and still didn't do nothing. That's what I don't understand..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
The next thing I'm thinking is that the shift arm/u joint on the transmission got bent some how during removal/install. Do you have any way to verify that the part is in 100% factory shape?

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Well I have no way of verifying is not I have nothing to reference it off of. It does looked cocked to one side but I don't in its if it's supposed to be like that or not. Here's a pic..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.

I don't have an actual picture, but per the service manual, it should be straight: Thanks,

 

 

 

Dave

Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Ok let me see if I can straighten it and see if that works I will let you know. Thanks..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.

Also, looking at your picture, it looks like there is a disconnect between the two parts that are shown connected in the diagram. Parts 23 and 25 in the diagram.

 

Thanks,

Dave

Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Yeah I put it back as straight as possible and is still doing the same thing

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
Did you check parts 23 and 25? That looks to be an issue.

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Yes I took that whole top cover off and everything but the shift arm looked good. I'm thinking maybe one of the shift linkage components may have got bent because I just left them hang off the shifter rod In the car so I wouldn't have to adjust it but I not sure how I'd tell.

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.

Hello,

 

Looking at your picture again, there seems to be something incorrect in the shift assembly you pictured. The shift arm has a knob/protrusion on it that needs to be facing inwards to actuate the other parts of the shift assembly. Her is a pic from the manual:

 

 

 

 

I do not have any diagrams of the interior shifter assembly itself. But look more for worn/failed bushings then bent parts.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Customer: replied 11 months ago.

OK here's what I did. I took the linkage off the transmission and tried to manually find the gears. In almost every gear the reverse lights are on and I can't find first or neutral. Is there anything I could have done wrong in the assembly that would cause an issue like this.

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
There isn't anything external that will cause the issue you are having. What is possible, would be an issue with the fork that controls gears 1 & 2 may be broken or damaged internally. This may partially explain the original issue, as 1st could be stuck engaged at all times. It would also cause you to have only Reverse, and 3-5 available, but stall the engine any time the vehicle is attempted to e moved (just like how a trans brake on a race car engages two gears to keep the vehicle from moving). Which sounds like what you are getting with the shifter and everything installed. Can you verify with the vehicle's owner if there was difficulty shifting into or out of first and second gear prior to the clutch issue?

As you probably know, there isn't a good way to test the shift forks without opening up the trans (past what you have been doing). At the point we are at, this is the next logical step as we have confirmed that the linkage is correct, but the transmission cannot shift into 1st gear.

I wish this had been a simpler issue to fix, please let me know if you have further questions, or if you need directions to help disassemble the transmission.

If I have answered all your questions to our satisfaction, please rate my answers, if not; please keep asking until your satisfied. : )

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Alright I have new info. I went to take it down to a trans shop. Upon pulling down the drive I noticed only one gear would let the car roll free with the clutch pushed in all others it wouldn't move. Upon Being towed by strap it sounded like it was in gear work the clutch pushed in so I tired shifting gears and it just ground. So something is up with the clutch system. I talked to the trans guy and he said try bleeding it more. I backed up in the garage. Do could it be either more bleeding or a bad master cylinder since they are know for it. Could this mess up the gears there's definitely something still wrong. Let me know

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
A bad master would definitely cause the clutch to not disengage and that would make shifting hard/impossible. The master cylinder is a known issue with that car, so try bleeding it again, and if that does not work, the Master may need to be replaced. With the internal slave cylinder on these cars, it is very hard to test just part of the system. You could plumb in a pressure gauge in the line between the master and slave, but with the cost and time, it is usually cheaper to throw a new master on there.

Alternately, you can remove the trans again, and when it is not engaged to the engine or axles, you can verify the shift operation while manually rotating the input shaft.

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Sounds good. I will try and bleed it more. I ordered a master cylinder just in case the bleeding doesn't fix it. Hopefully both things cure this issue..

Customer: replied 11 months ago.

OK so how is it possible to start the car and the car back up but with the clutch pushed in it won't move because it's Still in gear? I replaced the master cylinder. Does it just need bleed more? Could something not be right in the clutch assembly. .

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.

So your saying that the clutch disengages the engine enough to start the vehicle, and to move it in reverse, but not in a forward gear?

 

The only thing I can think of inside the clutch assembly, is the possibility that the friction disk is in backwards. Sometimes it is offset, even a few thousands of an inch to one side, so in one way it will not release properly, but the other way it will work perfect. Also, 1st gear is the most sensitive gear to get into as it requires the output of the transmission to be at zero. So if the clutch is still slightly dragging, Reverse and 2+ will be able to be engaged, but not 1st. I would try bleeding the clutch system further to ensure you have all the air out. Sometimes lightly tapping on the lines (lightly with the side of a wrench seems to work best) while bleeding can help get and trapped air to move out.

 

 

Thanks,

Dave

Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Yeah I can start the car and back up in reverse and also a high gear like before cause it wants to stall but when I push the clutch in and try and push the car my self it won't move because it's Still in gear. If bleeding doesn't work do you suggest removing the trans again and checking the clutch to ensure its correct..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
Before you take the trans back out, lets look at all of the symptoms:

- Reverse works and the car moves,
- Neutral is missing
- 1st - 5th all come as a high gear that tries to stall the engine. (does the vehicle move at all?)
- External linkage adjustments do not affect the shifting
- Cannot find gears shifting directly at the case.


So, we've exhausted every option to find the issue externally, all the symptoms point to it still being a linkage issue, external or internal (probably internal since all the external has been checked) But this could also be an issue inside the trans (what it is starting to sound like). The big problem with diagnosing it as a linkage issue is that the car came in with the same issue.

My best guess to the issue is that this as an internal transmission issue. It almost sounds like on the shift arm for reverse is working, but it is locking into 5th when not in reverse, but reverse is still engaged. This can be caused by bent/damaged teeth on the synchronizer/gear, or the small synchronizer clutch is warped/bent/burned to a state that will not let it disengage. If reverse is always engaged, it will work when you engage it alone, but when any other gear is engaged, you have a trans brake action.

So, all signs point to the dealership getting the initial diagnosis incorrect and you have a trans issue instead of a clutch issue. If you have a press available, rebuilding this transmission is very straight forward, but a junkyard replacement may be cheaper than a parts kit for it.

Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

Ok Well I think I'm gonna drop the trans and open it to see if I can find any damage. Also is there anything in the manual stating how to find the gears with just the shift arm on the trans like the location it should be in..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
There isn't a picture showing that. The only pictures that really show the shift assembly are the ones I attached previously.


Thanks,
Dave
Customer: replied 11 months ago.

On please bare with me I'm working the issue still and may still need your advice..

Expert:  DaveTheCarGuy replied 11 months ago.
No Problem, just let me know if/when you have another question.

Thanks,
Dave

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