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Eric
Eric, Automotive Repair Shop Manager
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 24959
Experience:  Automotive Repair Shop Manager, Technician/JA Mentor
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Journey

Customer Question

 I have the same issue with intermittent starting on my 2009 Dodge Journey. As I am in the UK the Journey is a relatively rare car and the dealer is new to Dodge/Chrysler. They have no experience in this. We started having intermittent starting issues with the Journey and it became more and more frequent. Usually if left for a few minutes it would start, and other times it had to be left overnight. It got to the point where it was happening about every 3rd day. We took it to the dealer and they re-flashed the module. From then on it behaved perfectly for about 6 weeks. (Key turns, radio lights off as normal, no attempt to start engine) It then did exactly the same thing again leaving my wife stranded with the 3 kids. I spoke to the dealer and we agreed that we should pro-actively replace the WIN module to eliminate one variable try and rectify the situation. This was going to cost £350 After replacing the module they found out that the steering lock module also needed to be replaced as you described in your previous answer on this subject. This was going to cost me an additional £650 and they needed to drill things to get the module off. I was understandably annoyed as a £350 job had just turned to a £1000 job and they should have known that the 2 parts were linked before starting the job. I told them that I would have traded the car in rather than spend £1000 to speculatively fix the intermittent starting issue. They have now replaced the original module and the car is apparently starting again. They are going to keep checking it through the day before I pick it back up. I have 2 questions. 1. Do you think replacing the WIN module will rectify the intermittent starting issue. 2. If I do replace the WIN module, is it possible to simply remove the existing steering lock module and not replace it? It seems that the steering lock module is optional (depending on the market) and I do not care if my steering wheel locks or not. Can it be removed?

Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Car
Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
HI,

The WIN module and the steering lock module work in conjuction with each other and it cannot be removed from the system and still have the vehicle start. Replacing it requires removing the steering column.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Ok...that means it is going to be a 1000 job to replace both.


it would still be worth it if it was sure to solve the problem.


if flashing the win module stopped it from failing every other day for 6 weeks can i be pretty sure it will be fixed if I replace it.

Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

Replacing the WIN and the lock module will resolve this based upon both my experience with this setup as well as your symptoms and what has been done so far and their results- I would go ahead and have them replaced
Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
I noticed we have not yet resolved your concern you asked about. I would sure appreciate it if you would reply so I can offer my skills and knowledge and repair guide access to help as best I can.


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Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Sorry, but I am still a little nervous to spend £1000 and have it not be the issue.


 


The part I do not understand is that when I put the key in and turn it, everything acts normal, and when you turn it to start, the radio display goes off, so the radio knows the key is in the start position. But the car will not attempt to turn over.


 


Is this consistent with the faulty win module +steering lock module?


 


How many of these issues have you seen and fixed?


 


The dealer said they had to "drill out" something to take out the steering lock. You said you have to remove the steering column. Can you clarify what has to be done.


 


Thanks


 


 


 


 

Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

All the symptoms including what you just listed are consistent with WIN and lock module failure. I have seen about 13-15 of these and in every case, this resolves the issue

Below are directions to remove the lock module. Unless the Journey export edition is different than our domestic editions, I am not sure what they are referring to on drilling anything out.

2009 Dodge or Ram Truck Journey






REMOVAL




1. Insert a FOB with Integrated Key (FOBIK) into the ignition switch to move the shaft lock module locking bolt to the unlocked position. Leave the FOBIK in the ignition switch while the shaft lock module service is being completed.
2. Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.
3. Disconnect the instrument panel wire harness connector (3) from the shaft lock module (2) connector receptacle.
4. Remove the steering column from the vehicle. See: Steering Column > Removal and Replacement > Steering Column - Removal.
5. Depress the two spring clips that secure the shaft lock module to the mounting bracket on the steering column by inserting a suitable drift or punch into the release holes (1) on the upper surface of the bracket opposite the module.
6. While holding both of the spring clips depressed, slide the module toward the base of the column far enough to disengage the engagement tabs and slide tabs on the module from the slots and channels in the bracket.
7. Remove the module from the steering column bracket.
Eric, Automotive Repair Shop Manager
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 24959
Experience: Automotive Repair Shop Manager, Technician/JA Mentor
Eric and 18 other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


Hi Eric,


 


After £1300....replacing the wins module, the steering lock module and both keys the car ran perfectly for 3 weeks. Today it did exactly the same thing as it had done previously in that everything behaves normally, Except:


when you turn the key to the start position,


the radio display goes out and nothing happens.


No clicks... no attempt to start...


If you move the shifter out of park to neutral and back you can feel the key interlock operating as normal and the dash indicator is accurate.


The car is now sitting in a supermarket car park.


 


Do you have any other suggestions as to what it might be now.


 


 

Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
HI,

I need to check the schematics, but that sounds like possible loose ground wire, starter, or a failure in the new lock module or WIN unit.

if you turn the headlights on and then turn the ignition switch to start, do the lights dim or stay strong?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I don't know, but I will check it but I have to go back to the car.


I find it hard to believe we would have exactly the same problem with two wins modules.


 


We have had from time to time the alarm go off for no apparent reason. how about the following TSB?


 


TSB NUMBER: 08-061-11
GROUP: Electrical
DATE: November 08, 2011

SUBJECT:
Flash: Vehicle Theft Alarm Intermittently Sounds, No Start
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves flash reprogramming the TIPM with new software.
MODELS:
2010 (RT) Town & Country / Grand Caravan
2010 (JC) Journey
2010 (JK) Wrangler
2010 (J3) (CKD) Wrangler
2010 (J5) (CKD) Wrangler
2010 (J8) (CKD) Wrangler
2010 (KA) Nitro
2010 (KK) Liberty
2010 (K1) (CKD) Cherokee
NOTE: This bulletin applies to 2010 model year RT, JC, JK, J3, J5, J8, KA, KK, and
K1vehicles equipped with Security Alarm (sales code LSA or LSB) or
Premium Security Alarm (sales code LSC).
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may complain of following conditions:
· The vehicle theft alarm intermittently sounds for no apparent reason.
· Multiple attempts are required to start the vehicle before the vehicle will start.

Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

Ok, I looked and dont see where the alarm going off on its own was mentioned before, so that is a new symptom for me.

any issues with the alarm going off on its own immediately before this latest no start? - like the night or day before?

I need to check to see if that tsb applies for 2009 Journey as well
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

 


There is no direct correlation to the false alarms and the starting issue. That's why I did not mention it. The alarm has only gone off every so often by itself about 10 times since new. We always thought it was wind or something inside the car moving.


The no-start happened the first time at the end of August.


 


The only other event in the time frame is that the condenser radiator was replaced in the beginning of august. I always wondered if there was any wiring that could have been damaged in that area which would cause this. The first thing I did when we it did not start was to have the dealer "check" to make sure nothing had been effected.


 


 

Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
HI,

Is the security light staying on or flashing on and off with the key in ignition and in on position, or does it come on and go off after about 10 seconds?

I will check for any related ground wires at the condensor area that need to checked


ok, there is the same tsb for the 2009 Journey, so at least for the intermittent alarm, this should be done. :

NUMBER: 08-009-12

GROUP: Electrical

DATE: February 04, 2012

HELP USING THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION FOR FLASHING AN ECU IS AVAILABLE BY SELECTING "HELP" THEN "HELP CONTENTS" AT THE TOP OF THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION WINDOW. THE wiTECH SOFTWARE LEVEL MUST BE AT RELEASE 12.02 OR HIGHER TO PERFORM THIS PROCEDURE.

SUBJECT:
Flash: Vehicle Theft Alarm Intermittently Sounds, No Start

OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves flash reprogramming the TIPM with new software.

MODELS:

2009 (RT) Town & Country / Grand Caravan

2009 (JC) Journey

2009 (JK) Wrangler

2009 (J5) (CKD) Wrangler

2009 (J8) (CKD) Wrangler

2009 (KA) Nitro

2009 (KK) Liberty

2009 (K1)(CKD) Cherokee

NOTE:
This bulletin applies to 2009 model year RT, JC, JK, J5, J8, KA, KK, and K1 vehicles equipped with Security Alarm (sales code LSA or LSB) or Premium Security Alarm (sales code LSC).

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may complain of following conditions:

^ The vehicle theft alarm intermittently sounds for no apparent reason.

^ Multiple attempts are required to start the vehicle before the vehicle will start.

DIAGNOSIS:

1. Using a Scan Tool (wiTECH) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedures available in TechCONNECT, verify no DTC's are set. If DTCs are present record them on the repair order and repair as necessary before proceeding further with this bulletin.

2. In the System Test tab of wiTECH, record the 'Last VTA Trigger' cause.

3. Was the 'Last VTA Trigger' equal to 1 (right rear door)?

a. Yes >>> Perform the Repair Procedure.

b. No >>>> Proceed to step #4

4. Are DTCs U0010ANDU0001 present in the TIPM?

a. YES >>> Perform the Repair Procedure.

b. No >>>> This bulletin does not apply. Further diagnosis is required.

REPAIR PROCEDURE:

NOTE:
Install a battery charger to ensure battery voltage does not drop below 13.2 volts. Do not allow the charging voltage to climb above 13.5 volts during the flash process.

NOTE:
If this flash process is interrupted/aborted, the flash should be restarted.

1. Flash reprogram the TIPM. Help using the wiTECH Diagnostic Application for flashing the TIPM is made available through the wiTECH Diagnostic Application. For instructions select the "HELP" tab on upper portion of the wiTECH window, then "HELP CONTENTS." This will open the Welcome to wiTECH Help screen where help topics can be selected.

2. Clear any DTC's that may have been set in other modules due to reprogramming. The wiTECH application will automatically present all DTCs after the flash and allow the tech to clear them.

POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.
Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
HI,

Ok, the grounds are at the left front shock tower inside the engine compartment that will affect starting. These need to removed, their eyelets cleaned and mounting bolt cleaned and then reinstalled and tightened.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Hi Eric,


 


I went back to see if I could get the car home. In previous incidents it would often start after being left for some time.


 


Here is the sequence.


Key turned to acc: dials do full sweep,all warning lights illuminate and then go out. security dot on the top right corner of the speedometer stays lit for about 3 seconds then goes out.


 


When the key is switched to the start position, the radio goes blank, the blower stops running and the windows will not operate.


When the key goes back to the ACC position the radio does not come back on and the windows do not operate. Starter does not attempt to crank.


 


If switch it to the off position and take out the key....put it back in and switch to the ACC position, the radio, windows and fan all operate as normal again.


 


I removed the grounds on the strut housing, cleaned them and replaced them and there was no change.

Expert:  Eric replied 1 year ago.
HI,

Ok, sounds like the TIPM, but I need you to check fuse #117, a 40 amp fuse. It is between the starter relay and the starter in the starting circuit. Check with voltmeter for 12v when key is in cranking position

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Eric
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