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sprinkles08
sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 16859
Experience:  ASE Master and Advanced level certified. Factory trained with 14 years dealership experience
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Chrysler PT Cruiser: Hi,I have a Chrysler PT Cruiser 2004

Resolved Question:

Hi,

I have a Chrysler PT Cruiser 2004 Diesel Model and absolutely no dashboard in my car and no ignition. There are the bits that don't work:

- Car Ignition
- Dashboard
- Radio
- Wipers
- Windows

These bits do work:
- External Lights
- Doors
- Horn

I had an electrician out who found out the ignition feed coming from Fuse 1 in the PDC is dead and not getting to the ignition switch.

So we bypassed the cable by running another one from Fuse 1 to the Ignition Switch.

Then everything starting working completely except the Dashboard and Ignition.

He seems to think there is obviously a split in this cable or something but he said there must be another cable going to something else along the way. So when we are bypassing it the feed is not going to something else.

I am planning to take the bumper and wing off tomorrow to have a look and try and trace the cables to see if he is correct.

Can you offer some advise please and also provide a wiring diagram for the 2004 Diesel PT Cruiser PDC & Ignition.

All fuses are fine.

All your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Nick
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Car
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Hello and welcome to JustAnswer!

I see your question has been up for an extended time without a response. Do you still need help?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi Sprinkes08,

Thank you for your response. Yes I would still like help if possible.

Today we have exposed all the cables going from the PDC to the internal fuse box just behind the bumper and located the issue that was preventing a lot of the car working. There was a repair someone had done before to the Fuse 1 cable going to the ignition. The join had corroded which I have now repaired so we are getting a full 12v at the ignition.

Now unfortunately the car still fails to have anything at all on the dashboard and no ignition either and the radio fails to power on.

Resolving the red cable issue has sorted a lot of other things such as you can hear the fuel pump going and wipers etc work.

There seems to be correct power going to the SKIM as well. I'm really unsure what to check next

Do you have any ideas? Again all fuses are ok.

Thank you,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Are you able to remove the ignition switch electrical connector and see which wires do have power?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I just checked the connector and I can confirm everything has power that should.

Pin 1, 4, 5, 9 all have power.

Which ties in with the diagram I have.

Also, do you know if there was an issue with the key/chip in it and the car didn't recognise it, would you expect to hear or see anything or would it be dead like it is? Just a thought!

Any further ideas would be great!

Thanks for your prompt reply!

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
If there was a SKIM key related issue then the engine would start and die followed by locking the starter out. This doesn't sound like your case at all.

If you leave the switch plugged in and backprobe with it turned on do you see power leaving on the appropriate pins?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

Thank you for this.

I checked everything you said and I can confirm the switch is ok.

So pins 2, 3, 7 and 8 are working when in the run position.

When I turn it to he start position pin 6 is live so that part of it is working.

I did notice the radio does actually say "code" on it constantly when the key is in. This then goes off and when you put the key in the start position.

Hopefully this gives you some more information.

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
It sounds like your problems are down to the instrument cluster not working and the engine won't crank. Are the windows working again now that you repaired the wiring issue?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yes the windows are fine now.

Oh dear, do you think it's likely to be something behind the dashboard at fault or something that powers the instrument cluster?

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
It sounds like we still have a wiring issue somewhere or possibly multiple problems. I'm assuming that the instrument cluster was working fine up until this happened?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yes the instrument cluster was working fine until we had this issue.

I guess the break in the wire from fuse 1 could have shorted out with ground. it was very corroded, Hopefully that wouldn't blow the cluster.

Is there a way to test it to isolate the issue?

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Yes, we can definitely isolate the issue.

Let's start by turning the key on and verifying there is power at fuse 10 in the fuse box inside. If this is ok then we can remove the instrument cluster and check it's powers and grounds.


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX is power to fuse 10.

I will start taking the dashboard out tomorrow and hopefully it will be fairly simple to do! I will let you know how we get on.

Hopefully I can see all the cables through the top without actually taking the instrument cluster out.

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Our next step will be to remove the instrument cluster itself and do a couple checks at it's electrical connectors.


We need to see if the dark blue/white wire has power with the key on and if the pink wire has power all the time. There is also a black and a black/light green wire which we need to check for ground.

Let me know what you find and we'll go from there. I'll be online all morning tomorrow and early afternoon but will be unavailable in the late afternoon and evening. If you post while I'm offline I'll get back to you as quickly as I can. For reference, it's 4:30 PM where I am right now.


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

Yes I have checked everything you suggested and it is all ok.

The dark blue/white wire has power when in the "on" position. The pink wire has power all the time.

Both grounds are fine.

So what would your next steps be?

Thanks!

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
What voltage do you see on the violet/yellow wire with the key on?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

On the violet/yellow cable I get a fluctuating voltage between 0.5v and 1v.

If you could let me know what to check next that would be great.

I am also looking for the ground distribution bar behind the dashboard.

Is this easy to get to and do you know where it is?

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Let's see if the engine will crank now with the instrument cluster unplugged.

There are quite a few splices on different ground circuits inside. Was there a certain circuit where you were looking for the splice?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I tried cranking the engine with the cluster unplugged but no luck unfortunately.

Did the voltage measurement sound ok to you?

I was just looking for the earthing point for the cluster really to make sure it was a good join.

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
You've tested the cluster grounds already and found they were good, correct? If they were tested good at cluster connector then they're ok.

Our next step is going to be checking the engine controller's powers and grounds. Unfortunately my service information lacks the diagrams for the diesel engine. I believe you said you had a manual for the car, do you have the wiring diagrams for the ECM?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

Yes we tested the grounds and they appeared to all be good. The only reason I mentioned that is if it was a bad ground and not a clean connection. So if a high load went through it then it might not be a good enough connection.

I have many diagrams here but it doesn't include the ECM wiring unfortunately.

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
The best way to test a power or ground is with a bulb that will draw some amperage, like a fog lamp or headlamp bulb. I always use a headlamp bulb and a couple jumper wires if current capability is in question. If you have a bulb and a couple jumper wires available you could go back and check the cluster powers and grounds again if you had used a meter the first time. If the bulb lights brightly then you know the powers and grounds are good, if it's dim then you know there is a corrosion or connection issue. It would be a good idea to do this if possible if we're still unsure. At this point it's looking like multiple failures which is unlikely if all problems started at the same time, so testing the powers and grounds with a meter may have masked a problem.


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

Thanks for this, yes I will give this a go tomorrow as I ran out of time today. That's a very good idea with the bulb.

The other thing we were thinking of looking at was the pci bus. But we're not really sure what it does and how it works but seems to have a common link on things.

If the grounds and positives seem ok from the instrument cluster do you think it's likely to be some kind of ground issue? I'm just hoping we aren't running out of ideas before we start trying parts like ecu's and instrument clusters etc...

Thanks

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
I won't have you buy parts until I'm positive they're bad. Let me know how the load tests come out and we'll go from there!
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK thats promising, thank you.

I just checked the grounds using a bulb and its pretty bright so I think we are safe to say they are ok.

There is defanately all the required power getting to the instrument cluster having checked it a few times on all the correct cables.

I'm not sure if its an issue or how its supposed to work but also the radio asks for a "Code", this randomly switches off and no longer asks for a Code but when you pull out random fuses from inside the car it suddenly comes on asking for a Code. Its just something odd that happens. I'm not sure if its supposed to do that!

So my question is, what should I check next?

Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Let's jump the starter relay and see if it starts. Remove the starter relay and turn it over and you'll find the pins are labeled underneath. Find 30 and 87 and then their mates in the fuse box. Make absolute sure the trans is in park, turn the key on. Using a short piece of wire stripped on both ends jump relay pin 87 to 30 and see if the starter cranks, and if the engine starts if it does crank.


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

I guess we are thinking alike!

We actually tried this yesterday.

The common pin to the starter relay has power. We put a small piece of wire across the appropriate pins and it tried to crank the starter... so we know the start try's to crank ok. I hope this helps.

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Did you do this with the key on to see if it would start that way?



Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK, No the key was in the "On" position, we did not try turning the key..

Are you saying the car will actually start running if we did this and turn the key?

I have also ordered a OBD-II/CAM reader to see if we get any communication to the ECU, and even display error codes for this issue if we can. At least it would prove we can talk to the ECU ok. This will arrive tomorrow.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
If the key wasn't in the on position when you jumped it try jumping it again that way and see if it will start.

I'd love to see if communication is possible too, by trying to jump the starter relay and see if it would start I was trying to do just that. Let's see if you do have communication when the code reader gets there.



Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Perfect, thank you... I will give this a go and let you know... Lets also see what this code reader does!

Thanks for all your help so far. Its really appreciated!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome!


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

OK, I plugged in the code reader and amazingly it communicated with the ECU/PCM... So I'm not sure about you but it looks like the ECU is fine to me. It had the following error codes stored in the system, none of which I believe is related to this issue but perhaps you may have a better idea: P0223, P0221, P0600, PO102.

I tried jumping a wire over the starter motor relay. The starter motor tried going but didn't actually do much. It didn't sound like it liked doing that though.

I also tried turning on the headlights to see if the backlights in the instrument cluster came on and they didn't. I found the correct pins and also measured them whilst switching on the headlight switch (with the instrument cluster removed) - and they didn't.

I'm not sure about you but I am starting to think perhaps the instrument cluster is faulty. - Could a faulty instrument cluster stop the car starting (i.e does it complete some sort of circuit or send a signal) ?

Let me know your thoughts and what you would like me to try next.

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
The instrument cluster appears to have failed for sure. It won't power up although it's powers, grounds, and the PCI communication bus voltage checked out ok right at the cluster. If you're comfortable that the testing at the cluster was done correctly then the cluster definitely has an internal failure.

When we found the cluster was bad I had you unplug it and see if it would start to see if that could be causing the starting issue, although I didn't and still don't believe it will.

The P0221 and 223 are both for the throttle position sensor and won't be related to the no start issue, and P0102 is is a mass airflow related code which also won't be related.

P0600 could be related to it though. This code sets when the ECM has identified an internal hardware failure in itself, the only cause for this one is a failed ECM. Whatever the failure is could be what is preventing the engine from starting.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK, thanks for this.

Are they are other tests or checks you can suggest we do? or do you think these are both the cause of the problem?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
We've got two repairs that definitely need to be made based on our testing and the fault codes set. We've proven that the ECM has an internal failure and so does the instrument cluster, so those are the first two repairs that are going to need to be made. Hopefully those are the only things that are going to be wrong.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thanks,

One last thing I would like to try is separating the ECU connectors. After inspection they do look very wet... could this be the cause of the ECU issue? I will separate these and make sure they are all dry over night etc... I might actually take out the ECU and bring it inside to dry out over night.

Also, would that error code be something that would shutdown the ECU? (i.e if I reset the error codes using my card reader, could this kick it into action? I didn't know if it could be some protection thing)

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
If there is water inside the connectors then that's an issue and it could have caused the ECM failure. If you do find water inside then the connectors will be replaced.

The fault code sets when there is an internal failure, which could be nearly anything. There are hundreds or more things that could be failed and preventing the ECM from functioning properly.

Clearing the codes shouldn't have any effect on the problem but you can try it. Disconnecting the battery would have had the same effect as cleaning the codes though and I'm assuming the cables had been disconnected while working at the power distribution center.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

We had a look at the car again today and we made some more progress.

After charging up the battery we tried jumping the relay again and the car actually started which was good.

Do you think the p600 error could be the fact it cannot communicate with the instrument cluster and therefore not starting the car? Perhaps cannot communicate over the pci bus?

I'm wondering if the whole issue is down to the instrument cluster not working?

I just wondered if from your experience this could happen?

I will accept the question once you have repled as I was worried I might loose communication to you once I do that!

Thanks for all your help on this.

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Rating my performance doesn't cut off communication and you'll still be able to reply here if you still need help with this problem.

If it has started now I wouldn't jump to replacing the ECM just yet. The code you found was definitely an internal failure but if it's running now that problem may not have been what was causing the no start.

Based on our testing you definitely need an instrument cluster. At this point I would go ahead and replace it and get that working again and see if you have any more problems before replacing the ECM.

sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 16859
Experience: ASE Master and Advanced level certified. Factory trained with 14 years dealership experience
sprinkles08 and other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Great thank you, XXXXX XXXXX and track down a replacement from somewhere and let you know as soon as its been fitted.

Thanks again!

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome!



Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

I just had one quick question after reading another just answers thread you helped someone on.

Can the instrument cluster definitely be powered up by just applying 12v to it? I wanted to double check it doesn't require a pci bus signal?

The only reason I ask is because the radio still doesn't work either and wondered if it could be a pci bus issue.

I guess it could be that the instrument cluster is holding everything back.

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
If you applied all the powers and grounds with jumper wires it would come on if it worked. We checked the bus voltage at the cluster and it was fine.

It sounded like your radio was working now but asking for the security code.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

OK so we have some further progress!

I have obtained and installed a new instrument cluster and the dials and displays are now working which is great. However the car still fails to start when starting the igition switch.

There are also no codes stored in the ECU since installing the new cluster and report no issues every time the ignition is switched on and my code reader is attached which is great - so I can only assume that error I had previously was related to a communication issue with the instrument cluster?

Now, I checked the voltage on the other side of the relay as far as the ECU connector (Tan coloured cable from starter relay, but turns into a yellow cable on the ECU connector) to make sure when they key was turned, it jumped up to about 12.5v which it did each time, so we can confirm that part of it works. So the only bit that seems to still not be working is the fact when this plug is connected to the ECU, it is not connecting to ground.

Now, we popped the cover off the ECU plug to expose the back of the connector and there was indeed water droplets in there which makes me think perhaps there is some level of corrosion somewhere.

Obviously to test it, we could cut the yellow cable and connect it to ground on the car and i'm extremely confident the car would start each time with the key.

The best solution would be to sort out why the cable is not getting ground applied to it when plugged into the ECU.

I have a few questions:

1. Should ground be applied to that side of the relay at all times, or does the ECU only apply ground when it needs to (i.e software controlled)
2. Does the ECU report error codes when absolutely anything is wrong with it (i.e can we safely safe this is the only issue and its a connectivity issue between the cable and the ECU or is it likely to be an internal fault/corrosion?
3. If I do cut the cable and ground it - will there be any issues by doing this or is it a good fix?

Your comments and answers would be greatly appriciated!

It sounds like we've found the remaining issue!

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
I'm tied up at work this afternoon, I'll get back to you just as quick as I can!

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thats great thank you! Yes just reply when you have a moment. There's no rush! Speak later!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Ok!

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Are you now able to turn the key on, jump the starter relay and the engine will start and stay running?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yes I think I forgot to mention this also worked before I changed be instrument cluster. The car runs fine and I managed to drive it around the drive ok when doing this.

The reason i couldn't before is because the battery wasn't fully charged!

Everything seems to work fine when doing that

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
If you remove the relay and probe each terminal that engages it are there two that have power with the key in the crank position?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Correct yes, we have the pin for the switch inside the relay, and the other terminal has power that is for the coil inside the relay.

So it looks like its missing the earth at the otherside of the Coil to me (so the other pin on the relay)
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Ground is supplied to the relay through the ECM based on input from the transmission range sensor. If you jumped ground to the relay it would crank and start the engine but you would lose your park/neutral safety function.

Hold the key in the crank position with one hand, hold the brake and slowly move the shifter out of park, through reverse and neutral and into overdrive. Does the start attempt to engage at all when doing this?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi,

OK, the car is a manual, not automatic... does a simular thing apply to it?

Thanks
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
In that case it has a clutch safety switch.

When checking for ground to the relay did you have the clutch pushed in?


Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hmm, thats interesting.

I haven't actually checked ground from the ECU, we basically checked the voltage from the starter motor relay which was 12.5v... I didn't think about trying the other side of the connector that goes to the ECU... so by doing that we could actually check ground.

So are you saying the ground is probably operated by keeping your foot on the clutch when you start the car? (i.e it may actually start by doing that)?


I thought that kind of thing only applied to automatics but i could be wrong.

I've not really owned the car properly yet so I've yet to learn all the features! (at least I will know the wiring inside out :) )
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
Starter operation is disabled on a vehicle with a manual transmission if you don't have the clutch pushed in. There is a switch that senses when the pedal is pushed in.

Have you been pushing in the clutch when trying to start it? If not then that may be why it isn't cranking.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
lol, ok thank you... I will give this ago and then bang my head against a brick wall if it works :)

I will give it a go and let you know. I wasn't aware of this at all.

Thanks!
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome! Keep your fingers crossed that's all it is!

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi!

Yes that did it! I can't believe that's all it was since repairing that ignition feed and cluster.

Oh well we live and learn! It would have helped if I knew how the car worked.

Thank you for all your help on this, it looks like its all resolved now.

One last question, my new (or second hand) instrument cluster has the mileage from a previous car. What do I need to do so I can get the mileage programmed into it for this car?

Thanks,

Nick
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.
The mileage isn't something that can be changed in the field due to odometer fraud concerns. If you need it changed you would need to send it into a company that does instrument cluster repair and they should be able to program the correct mileage for you.
sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 16859
Experience: ASE Master and Advanced level certified. Factory trained with 14 years dealership experience
sprinkles08 and other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK, thats great, thank you!

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