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FlatRat572
FlatRat572, KIA MASTER ELITE
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 211
Experience:  ASE certified,KIA Master Elite,10+ years KIA experience
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Rio: I have a 2005 Kia Rio with 170,000 miles on it that I

Customer Question

I have a 2005 Kia Rio with 170,000 miles on it that I bought for my wife to drive to school. However, the car has problems and I knew it when I bought it. So, these are the codes.

P0170 - Fuel trim bank 1 - too rich too lean
P0507 - IAC system - RPM higher than expected
P0301,P0302,P0303,P0304,P0300 - Misc. misfire and misfire in all cylinders.

-I have cleaned the IAC and it was opening and closing ok.
-I cleaned the throttle body.
-I have re-gapped the plugs to .030 from .040-.045.
-I do have spark in all cylinders.
-Compression test showed that all cylinders are within 10% of 135psi.
-Performed a back pressure test which showed <1psi @ idle and at a somewhat steady 2500rpm, however when revving I can the back pressure up to about 6 but then it comes right back down.
However, I took off the short section of exhaust pipe and discovered that the catalytic convertor is cleaned out "I thought it sounded like the exhaust was running through a tin can".
- I have found documentation of the timing belt being replaced about 30,000 miles ago.
- I checked to make sure that the two cam marks ar lined up and they are, but I cant see the crank mark.

The car will start up fine, in the garage it runs a little rough like misses. It will rev fine but it wont hold a steady RPM, it drops out.
When driving the car it will cut out for the first couple of miles and then if I come to a stop it will take forever to get back up to speed. It boggs down and will eventually stall. If I am on even a slight hill, it will not make it. I have had to back down the hill and do a K turn into a side street and find another way home.
It feels like my 88 mustang that had a bad Ignition Control Module and my 91 Camaro that had a bad injector.
I have no idea what else to do without throwing parts at it. I bought a new IACV and TPS but I don't want to put them in because the two of them were $200.00 and I am not convinced that they need to be replaced.
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Car
Expert:  K. Wiggins replied 1 year ago.
With all three codes present the one common denominator is a vacuum leak. With the vehicle running you need to check all vacuum hoses and all intake tubing behind the mass air flow sensor. Cracked hoses will whistle. If you cannot hear the whistling use a can of carb cleaner to spray around the hoses and intake. The engine should speed up some when the spray hits a leak. If any leaks are found repair them then clear codes and see if codes come back. If they do you will need a scan tool to monitor the TPS , MAF and IACV while running the engine and use the accompanying flow chars I will post below. I f you need help let me know.
PO507





PO300's

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Thank you, XXXXX XXXXX check for vacuum leaks on Tuesday. Can I use a can of Throttle body cleaner or will it only work with carb cleaner? Also, is there anyway to perform the procedures on the charts without A scanner? Also, what about the catalytic convertor, will the car run correctly with the cat cleaned out?

Expert:  K. Wiggins replied 1 year ago.
Yes, you can use throttle body cleaner. The tests on the charts will require a scan tool with live data to monitor the MAF and TPS data. If the catalytic converter is extremely clogged up the car will indeed run much better with it cleared. ITs worth the fee to have a shop check that as you will need a special adapter to install a pressure gauge in the exhaust to view system back pressure.

My suggestion would be to look for any possible vacuum leaks and inspect for possible chaffed or broken wire to sensors. If you find nothing take to a reputable shop for further diagnosis. You will have saved money by checking these preliminary things. Most shops will charge .5-1hr for the scan tool diagnosis and catalytic converter check.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Thanks for the charts but I don't think you read my entire posting. I have already performed a back pressure test and I took off the short section of exhaust and found that both cats are completely empty.

Expert:  K. Wiggins replied 1 year ago.
Sorry about that. The car will run with the cats gutted. It will however set a po420 code for catalyst efficiency below threshold as there will be no variation between the upstream and downstream oxygen sensors.
Expert:  Michelle-Mod replied 1 year ago.

Hi, I’m a moderator for this topic. It seems the professional has left this conversation. This happens occasionally, and it's usually because the professional thinks that someone else might be a better match for your question. I've been working hard to find a new professional to assist you right away, but sometimes finding the right professional can take a little longer than expected.

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Customer: replied 1 year ago.
If you can leave this topic here so I can reference some information I would appreciate it. As far as looking for another tech, I have already reported the question for a second opinion and have gotten another response from another tech. Thanks
Expert:  Walt-mod replied 1 year ago.
Thank you for your patience, your business is very important to us, we are waiting on the Professional with the right expertise to come online. Feel free to let us know if you would like us to continue searching for a Professional or if you would like us to close your question. Thank you for your understanding!
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

continue searching

Expert:  FlatRat572 replied 1 year ago.

I'm ready to answer your KIA questions right now.

Hello, i see you have another open question about the same issue with your car. i have read through both questions and reply's from the other experts, and not to say that there answer's are wrong, but that first things first, with the codes you have is that the Cat's have been gutted out...... this one statement you made about both cats being gutted, and looking at all of your codes listed, in my opinion are more than likely all related.....the code p0170 is a generic code and not a KIA code, kia would be p0171 for lean and p0172 for rich. this lean or rich code could be a direct fault due to no catalytic converter cleaning the exhaust gases.

next codes i look at are the miss fire codes, since you have a p0300(multiple/random) and miss fire codes for all other cylinders, and you have good compression,this could be directly related to the first code you have the p0170 code.

I'll explain here..... the pcm detects the exhaust gases are far to rich, due to no cat. and it leans out the fuel mixture so severely to compensate, that this in turn creates a lack of fuel and horsepower that the pcm now detects a or think it detects missfires and counts them and sets the code for missfires. when actually the computer did this to itself.

I do not know if any of that made any since at all, but it all sounded good in my head.

First thing first. you need to install some cat-converters. reset the fuel trims to zero, and then test drive the vehicle, and see what codes return.....if any.

to reset the fuel trims, disconnect both battery terminals from the battery, and run a jumper wire from the + terminal to the - terminal for about 30 seconds.........this will reset the fuel trims in the pcm and clear most major faults.

reply for any further questions

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thank you. So, I know there is the primary cat on the header. Is the small tubular thing on the short section on exhaust pipe also a cat? And do they both need to be replaced if the second one is also empty?
Expert:  FlatRat572 replied 1 year ago.
The first cat on the exhaust manifold is called the warm up cat, this cat does the majority of the work and this is where the o2sensors read from, the next cat is the main cat , you may get away with not replacing this one as this cat is like a final cleaning of the air before releasing the exhaust gases to the muffler...
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Thank you very much for your answer. I feel that your answer was very professional and knowledgable. I am searching for new cats now, which I am having a very hard time finding. If you have any suggestions on where I can find them close to Albuquerque NM I would appreciate it.


Now i would like to be able to contact you after I install the new cat or cats. How can I do that if I rate your answer now?

Expert:  FlatRat572 replied 1 year ago.
Other than Kia dealers I really couldn't tell you were to find aftermarket cats, maybe like autozone or pep boys...I do know there are places that sell aftermarket cats, as I have had customers bring them in to me to install for them. But I do not know where they got them from... I will do a google search for them and see what I can find.
You can come back to this question at anytime, even after rating the answer.....just bookmark this page on your computer.
FlatRat572, KIA MASTER ELITE
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 211
Experience: ASE certified,KIA Master Elite,10+ years KIA experience
FlatRat572 and other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

I got one on order it should be here by the end of the week.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Hello Again,


I installed a new Cat and reset the fuel trim and it ran a little better at first, but then the same problem came back and the engine light came back on. I swapped the TPS and MAF sensor with another "not new ones" and again it ran better again, but then the same problem returned. I took off the IAC and ran power directly to it and it opens and closes perfect with no hesitation.


I took of the top timing belt cover and both cams are as aligned as possible, the grooves are not exactly in the same position on each gear.


I took it to O'reileys and got the codes again. Same ones 507, 300-304.


Again, these are the symptoms:


- I will start the motor and it will run rough with some popping in the intake manifold and then the idle will clean up and run semi smooth. I can rev the motor and it will rev smooth.


- Put it in gear and it starts to sputter, try to accelerate and it will sputter up and then eventually clean up and accelerate until it shifts to 2nd gear, then it does it again in second gear but for less time. If I floor it the car may sputter and slow down or downshift and accelerate fine.


- After driving the car smells like it was running rich.


- For the most part when it gets up to speed the car seems fine, until I


get to a hill or I have to stop and restart.


- One more thing, the sputtering get worse and worse as I drive the car more, However, if I shut the car off and restart it, it will improve a for the first couple of time that I accelerate from a stop.


 


 

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hello Again,

I installed a new Cat and reset the fuel trim and it ran a little better at first, but then the same problem came back and the engine light came back on. I swapped the TPS and MAF sensor with another "not new ones" and again it ran better again, but then the same problem returned. I took off the IAC and ran power directly to it and it opens and closes perfect with no hesitation.

I took of the top timing belt cover and both cams are as aligned as possible, the grooves are not exactly in the same position on each gear.

I took it to O'reileys and got the codes again. Same ones 507, 300-304.

Again, these are the symptoms:

- I will start the motor and it will run rough with some popping in the intake manifold and then the idle will clean up and run semi smooth. I can rev the motor and it will rev smooth.

- Put it in gear and it starts to sputter, try to accelerate and it will sputter up and then eventually clean up and accelerate until it shifts to 2nd gear, then it does it again in second gear but for less time. If I floor it the car may sputter and slow down or downshift and accelerate fine.

- After driving the car smells like it was running rich.

- For the most part when it gets up to speed the car seems fine, until I

get to a hill or I have to stop and restart.

- One more thing, the sputtering get worse and worse as I drive the car more, However, if I shut the car off and restart it, it will improve a for the first couple of time that I accelerate from a stop.
Expert:  FlatRat572 replied 1 year ago.
With the popping sound in the intake and the rich smell, I would be checking that the timing is absolutely correct, you will need to remove all the timing covers and check the upper and lower timing marks, make sure that cylinder 1 is on the compression stroke when checking the timing marks......this has all the symptoms of the timing being off at least a tooth or more.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Crank is at TDC and both cams are line up perfect. Does the timing mark at TDC indicate that cylinder one is on compression stroke?I installed a new catalytic converter and took apart the exhaust all the way back to the muffler and made sure that there is no blockage. I didnt recheck the backpressure since there is nothing to cause it now I think this higher readings were a result of a bad gauge. Replaced the spark plugs and wiresI don't know what the two O2 sensors are reading because I do not have a scanner and I don't know any other way to test it. I am not getting the 507 code anymore but I am still getting the 300-304 miss fire codes.The symptoms are, sputtering when accelerating, rough idle, occasional popping in the intake, if I rev the engine when I am in park occasionally the car will idle high for about 20 seconds and then come down and sometimes die.I am at a loss with this thing.

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