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George H.
George H., ASE Certified Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 16074
Experience:  ASE Master Tech 15+ yrs, AAS Automotive Technology, Factory trained Asian specialist
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Geo Metro I have to put helicoils in the engine block of my

Customer Question

I have to put helicoils in the engine block of my geo metro G10 3cyl. Cylinder bolt size is 10mm 1.5 . The helicoil calls for 10.5mm drill. Is it safe to do this using a hand drill? I practiced on a spare block and the drill bound up several times before I made it to the bottom. I'm going out to get a smaller drill to start the holes with, I thought that would be the way to go.
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Car
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

Hello I will help you with your question,

 

If you can find a larger drill motor to steady your drilling speed you will have better results and be sure to use cutting oil to cool the bit as you drill but you should be able to make these holes with a hand drill. You have the original holes as pilots so it is fairly easy to keep them straight.

 

Let me know how I can help you with this

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I put together about 5 incrementally sized bits which make it go smoothly enough with my cordless drill. I got into this situation because of torque to yield bolts which I wasn't used to. Add to that the fact that there was water/oil in the bolt holes and I broke bolts twice installing the cylinder head. Was able to use a dremel tool with a cutting wheel ground down to 1/4" to cut a slot in the broken bolts and unscrew them with a slotted screwdriver. I never had a problem with any of my other cars, 59 & 68 Cadillacs, 1980 chevy v-6, Dodge Caravan 3.3. After torqueing the bolt holes so many times my guess is that I exceeded the strength of the threads, being aluminum. Can you give me suggestions on how to torque these so that I get it right this time? 54 ft lbs is the required torque. Do I go to 54 and then 1/4 turn to stretch the bolts?

Thanks
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

First clean the threads and the holes throughly then install the bolts finger tight with a little oil under the bolt head seats. Torque to 30 ft lbs in the sequence of an "X" in the center four bolts followed by an "X" of the outer four bolts. Repeat at 54 ft lbs.

 

Nothing in my information shows these as torque to yield bolts or to apply any additional torque once the 54 ft lbs is reached. This is why you pulled the threads and broke the bolts, they were over torqued.

 

Let me know how I can help you with this

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
No, I didn't over torque them. They broke before the torque wrench got up to 54.
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

OK, the bolts may have been stretched but they are not torque to yield and you do not need to torque them more once you reach 54 ft lbs. Is this a torque wrench you can depend on or do you need to check its calibration?

 

 

George H., ASE Certified Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 16074
Experience: ASE Master Tech 15+ yrs, AAS Automotive Technology, Factory trained Asian specialist
George H. and 2 other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
It's a 50 dollar wrench which I got at Auto Zone. It's a click type, I've used this type many times in the past
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

OK, as long as you are comfortable that it is reading correctly, if you can borrow a beam type you can torque a couple of fasteners and see what the pointer on the beam reads when you loosen them after tightening with the clicker

 

Let me know how I can help you

\

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
By the way, these ARE torque to yield. That advice could lead to big problems. Couldn't hurt to check a shop manual before giving advice on this. Check Felpro ES74021
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

Check the published cylinder head procedure as distributed by GM below.

 

Click here for procedure

 

You may be buying TTY bolts from FelPro but FelPro was not the OEM supplier for this engine

 

Let em know how I can help you

 

 

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
OK, but my suzuki dealer's mechanic told me the same thing, torque to yield are used in manufacture. I would happily use the other kind but can't find them

Thanks for all your help
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

I understand that you had to buy TTY bolts for replacements and you should follow the makers recommendations but with pulling threads and breaking bolts I would look to see why that is happening and adjust the procedure to the circumstances.

 

Let me know if I can help you

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
As I said, bolts were hydrolocked because of water and oil in the bolt holes in the block. The first time I replaced the head (burnt valves), having another head with new valves, Everything went fine. I found that rings were worn so I took it apart to do those and that was when I ran into trouble. I have no reason to think anything will go wrong at this point but I am paranoid
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

OK, as long as you clean the bolt holes and install the bolts as described you should not have any trouble. The helicoils are stronger than the original threads so they will hold as long as the bolts do.

 

If you can double check the accuracy of your torque wrench against a beam type (I think autozone has these in their loaner program) just to be sure and all should go well.

 

Let me know if you have further questions about this

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
What's the best way to clean out the chips from the bolt holes
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

You want to spray solvent in the hole and blow it clean with air, place a rag over the hole before you blow so the chips don't go flying then run soap and water into the hole, rinse and blow dry. One chip in the wrong place can ruin an otherwise perfect job.

 

Let me know what questions you have

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Yeah, I'm not sure all these aluminum chips in my hair are making the kind of fashion statement I want. . If any chips got into the intake manifold can I just blow air through the throttle body? Also, in spite of what I thought were adequate precautions there is some fine stuff in the cylinders, tiny bits of steel wool which fell down around the pistons. Any suggestions? There's some stuff the consistency of fine dust, might be some iron oxide from some fine sanding. Very minimal, It's not that visible. Would it safely work itself out with the engine running? Should I do the soapy water and air thing?

I used to be a lot less mistake prone but these days I've been having some cognitive and memory issues.
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

Just think of it as glitter!

 

 

The aluminum is better than steel as the valves will smash it but there may leave some residue that will keep them from having a full seal.

 

Use a magnet to get as much of the steel out as possible, you should never be using steel wool for any part of the operation, 3M scrub pads is the preferred abrasive. Flush as much as you can with solvent and then wash with water and re oil the cylinders. The correct way to do it is to completely disassemble, wash with soap and hot water and dry then lubricate as you assemble keeping everything spotless but we do what we can and hope for the best. Get as much out as you can and try to blow back out not into the engine. Masking tape and duct tape will help keep the chips out of the places you don't want it. Just keep it out of the crankcase so it does not end up in the bearings.

 

Let me know how you do

 

Thanks

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
There aren't any aluminum chips in there as I had the sense to tape over the cylinders while I sprayed chips into my hair. The 0000 steel wool fibers are no bigger than a half millimeter. Yes I used scrub pads after I realised my mistake with the steel wool. I would think the steel wool would just burn. I have neodymium magnets, guess I'll put them on a screwdriver and use the tip on the fibers, but the steel cylinder sleeve might tend to magnetically hold onto them
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

Any steel will keep abrading whatever they run on so see if you can get it all out with a good magnet (neodymium = great) The cylinder should be less magnetic than the magnet so you should have success. You might want to tape the tip of the screwdriver so if it is pulled into the cylinder wall it does not scratch it.

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I would think it might wash out and end up in the oil filter. What do you think?
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

You have as much chance of it ending up in the filter as a bearing so get what you can out and hope for the best. The #1 rule of engine building is to keep it clean.

 

Give yourself the best chance for success and spend some time now to save a headache later.

 

Let me know how I can help

 

Thank you

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Yeah I know about keeping things clean, but I have this major attention deficit problem forgetting details etc. I see small portions of the big picture. Didn't used to be this bad. I'm too young to go senile. Is Purple Power good stuff? That's what I'm using.
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

Purple power is great stuff but is lye so you have to rinse it completely or it will continue to eat the aluminum.

 

I can't wait to get the full blown oldtimers so I don't know what I forgot!

 

 

George H., ASE Certified Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 16074
Experience: ASE Master Tech 15+ yrs, AAS Automotive Technology, Factory trained Asian specialist
George H. and 2 other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Yeah I know about lye and aluminum. When I was a kid I knew that the byproduct of the lye/aluminum reaction was hydrogen, in a flask, and which I used to inflate balloons and pop them with a lighter. I was an abnormal kid. Looks like this is working, the air blows the degreaser right out of the groove around the piston, I don't think there will be anything left in there of consequence. Good thing the engine only weighs 90 pounds in case I have to change it (already did, which explains how I got a junkyard engine with burned valves and worn rings). Tranny weighs 55 lbs
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
There is a fair amount of carbon deposit on the top of the pistons and it's coming off with the degreaser and the cleaning, should I try to get it all off or does it matter? on one of the pistons it obscured most of the top and I had to scrape it to see the arrow. Would this indicate mileage in the high 100s?
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

I would think it is a fair bet that 150K would be correct but I have never bought a junkyard motor that was not 88 - 89K! seems they all went to the yard at that mileage. Or maybe they just lie to me but yours sounds about right.

 

Don't get carried away with the degreaser, soak a paper towel and wring it so it is not dripping and lay it on the piston that is at the top of the bore then wipe after twenty minutes or so, they don't have to be spotless on a head job just get the chunks off.

 

Once you get this running be sure to change the oil and filter after 500 miles or 10 hours running, whichever comes first.

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Good reminder about the change. Wash out whatever crap was left. Got the helicoils in. The tang breakoff tool would have cost me $144 except I found the exact tool on ebay for $10 including shipping. Maybe somebody got a box of them from a bankrupt auto supply co. I hope it's not counterfeit, but I don't think so
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

The tangs just need a punch and then they break off so I don't know who is selling them for $144 but that a hefty profit!

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Must be made by the military or NASA. No, actually it's Emhart, that's the price they quoted me. Could've been a mistake. Oh well, I got me one heck of a sophisticated punch - like one of those "special" automotive manufacturer tools that we all know we really don't need.
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

Good you can use it to knock out Subaru axle roll pins next!

 

Let em know how I can help you

 

Thanks

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I've heard that metros were often bought for or by college kids because they were cheap, and that many got severely abused and neglected. I have a feeling that was the case with my engine. One of the valves actually had the edge burned off so that the was a gap of about 3/16" . Would that be a matter of high mileage or could it have been from abuse? By the way, typo: You wrote - let em know how I can help you
Expert:  George H. replied 3 years ago.

I have a problem with transposition and the spell check allows em as a word so I often do that.

 

Burned valves can be from a variety of causes, many times it is a valve sticking open and that can be due to poor maintenance but this is a "cheap" engine designed to sell for very little money and the engineers cut costs where ever they could in the machining and materials so it is not uncommon to find this type of wear.

 

I would just build it the best you can and get as many miles out of it that it will run.

 

Let me know how I can help you

 

Thank you

 

 

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