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My name is Dale.
The symptom you are describing is called a "HOT SOAK NO START" condition. Usually it is caused by either floats in the carburetor that have become saturated with fuel (Heavy) and therefore the fuel level is to high and it causes the carburetor to percolate when you shut it down hot. Remember that a hot engine always gets hotter when you shut it off hot because the cooling is gone. So the under hood temperature goes way up before it cools down.
Try this. Get it good and hot ( take it out a run it fairly hard until it good and hot) with A/C on, shut her down and let sit for about 5-10 minutes, raise the hood and remove the air cleaner. Take a flash light and shine it down the bores of the carb and see if you can see a mist of fuel or a bubbling over (Percolating) of the fuel out the discharge nozzles in the bores. If you can then you have found the problem and it is internal in the carburetor itself. NOTE: ETHANOL BLENED FUEL MAKES THIS CONDITION WORSE.
Check it out and let me know.
Have a Blessed & Productive Day !
Very well but the question will go dormant and close before Sunday.
Thanks for replying. I will just wait to see what you find.
HI DALE... I DID AS YOU SAID, BUT DID NOT SEE 'A MIST OR A BUBBLING OVER' AT ABOUT 7 MINUTES AFTER A 30 MINUTE RUN BUT I STILL FEEL THAT YOUR ASSESSMENT IS PLAUSABLE. I PURPOSELY FLOODED IT COLD AND IT WOULDNT START. I LEFT IT SIT FOR ABOUT 90 MINUTES AND IT STARTED, THOUGH IT DID CHUGG A BIT AT FIRST. AND I FEEL SOME OF THE OTHER POSSIBLE CAUSSES HAVE BEEN 'NEARLY' ELIMINATED & YOU DIDN'T MENTION ANY OTHER SYSTEMS AS SUSPECTS EITHER.
SO, I AM TRUSTING AND ACCEPTING YOUR ANSWER AS TO A LIKELY CAUSE, AND WE'LL KNOW FOR SURE ONCE I APPLY A REMEDY. WHICH BEGS THE SUBSEQUENT QUESTION; IF IT IS, AS YOU SAY, A BUBBLING OVER OR PERCULATING.... WHAT IS THE TYPICAL REMEDY?
For update. I am a little puzzled at this point. Drop the float level 1/16" on both primary a secondaries and see if the problem goes away. You can always move it up again. I have to be real honest here and tell you that this is VERY Common Complaint on the Edelbrock carburetors. NOTE: THEY MAY LOOK LIKE A HOLLEY BUT THEY ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE ENGINEERING THAT HOLLEY HAS HAD OVER THE YEARS.
Also, I would go through the drill of getting it to not start Hot and immediately check for spark by pulling a plug wire and taking a new spark plug, ground the shell where the threads are and have someone crank it over just to see if you are loosing spark or not.
This question has not been accepted as of this post.
PS- I guess what I am saying is if you feel that the carburetor (Fuel/Flooding) is not the problem then we need to look at the possiblity of a ignition failure that shows up under a Hot Soak Condition. Did you try the WIDE OPEN THROTTLE when it does its thing? If it goes ahead and starts that is absolute proof of a Fuel/Flooding condition.
HI DALE..... I DROVE IT AGAIN THIS EVENING AND STOPPED BY FAMILY FOR A VISIT. AND HOUR LATER IT WOULDN'T START. I TRIED A TOUCH OF THROTTLE BUT NO CHANGE..... I THEN HELD THE THROTTLE TO THE FLOOR AND CRANKED IT FOR 35 - 40 SECONDS, ... NO GO. SO I LEFT IT FOR ANOTHER HOUR PLUS AND THEN TRIED IT. NO START. I TRIED A SECOND TIME AND GOT A SPUTTER, A SLIGHT POP, AND THEN AWAY SHE WENT. ALL ALONG THROUGH THESE INCIDENTS THERE IS A STRONG SMELL OF FUEL. SO FLODDIND OF SOME SORT SEEM PREVELENT... SO WE'LL TRY A FLOAT ADJUST AND SEE IF WE CAN GET SOME POSITIVE RESULTS. I HOPE YOU GET THIS MESSAGE. I WANT YOU TO RECEIVE YOUR DUE, SO RATHER THAN CLICK REPLY I WILL CLICK ACCEPT...
BUT PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU ALSO GET THIS REPLY TO EXPERT MESSAGE INCLUDED WITH MY ACCEPT ANSWER SELECTION.
THANKS AGAIN DALE..... RICK.
Well Rick, Thanks for accepting my answers. We are back to the old spark or fuel question. I think it is fuel but you can always be ready with an extra spark plug and just pull a spark plug wire when it does it and ground the outer shell. Look for a nice bright blue spark NOT RED. I have been thinking about your engine. If it works out to be a fuel related problem (Overheated Carburetor) you might want to look around for a heat seperator that would go between the intake and the base of the carburetor. Usually they are made of bakelite and are 1/2" to 3/4" thick. Ofcourse you will have to make sure you have enough hood clearance to raise the carburetor up.
So that's about all I can do without being there to diagnose it myself. If you would like to contact me directly in the future, just go to: http://www.justanswer.com/profile.aspx?PF=19741685&FID=0
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I will be watching for any additional posts you make to this question. I really would like to know what resolves the issue for other guys that are running into the same problem.
THANKS AGAIN DALE... I'LL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT TURNS OUT. THE SHOP THAT'S GOING TO ADJUST THE CARB 'AGAIN' AND THIS TIME INCLUDING ADJUSTING THE FLOATES IF NECESSARY SHOULD HAVE IT DONE MONDAY.
I DO HAVE ANOTHER THOUGHT THOUGH..... COULD THIS CONDITION ALSO BE CAUSED BY OR 'INTENSIFIED 'BY THE CARTER ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP. AND IF SO, DO YOU THINK A "TOGGLE SWITCH" SHUT DOWN OF THE FUEL PUMP 3,5, OR 7 SECONDS BEFORE THE IGNITION SWITCH WOULD BE BENEFICIAL.
***************YOUR FIRST ASSESSMENT IS THE LIKELY CAUSE - FROM MY 'VANTAGE POINT'.
I'VE PASTED YOUR LINK AND WILL REQUEST YOU AGAIN....... (if You're right, of course)
HAVE A GOOD, GOOD DAY! RICK.
I have used a Carter Rotary Vane pump before and they do generate a MASSIVE amount of Volume & Pressure. I have used them in racing cars (Circle Track) where filling the fuel chamber in the carburetor had to be done quickly. You could try a switch just to see if it made any difference. That would clarify (FOR SURE) that it is flooding or percolating over. Again this is a very common complaint with the Edelbrock Copy Cat carburetors. If these things you are going to change (WHICH YOU SHOULD DO 1 AT A TIME SO YOU KNOW WHAT CHANGED) do not resolve the issue I would consider a Heat Seperator Plate under the carburetor or Just bite the bullet and put a genuine Holley carburetor on it and forget it. This is one of the reasons why so many techs are really down on the Edlebrock Carburetors. The look shinny and cool but they DO NOT FUNCTION and are not as easilt adjustable as a Holley. It is sort of like the wave of MSD distributors. I see many guys going back to the original distributors. The beef them up of course but there are some things that are just real hard to improve on and the engineers at the manufacturers have and have had the resources to time test theirs systems long before they are placed out in the market. Some of the technolgy comes from racing the cars and then learning what the component does under extreme donditions. The sme thing applies in general to factory vs. after market radios.
These are my thoughts at thispoint but I want you to keep me advised whether this question times out or you have to start a new question.
GOOD DAY DALE.. THE VAN WENT INTO THE SHOP MONDAY AND FIRST WE CHECKED FOR SPARK DURING FAILURE AND NONE WAS FOUND. THE TECH WORKING ON IT FOUND THAT THE POWER TO THE COIL WAS NOT THERE (OR WAS LOWER THAN IT SHOULD BE ?) WE TRIED A COUPLE GOOD USED COILS BUT THE SYMPTOMS STAYED THE SAME. WITH THE KEY ON IGNITION AND THE FUEL PUMP RUNNING, WHEN THE COILS WERE CONNECTED THE PUMP SOUNDED A BIT SLOWER - I'M NOT SURE IF THAT WOULD BE 'NORMAL'
....SO IT SEEMS TO BE SPARK RELATED AND NOT FUEL. THERE IS A REMOTE START ON THE UNIT THAT I'VE NEVER USED AND THERE MAY BE AN ANTI THEFT SYSTEM AS WELL BUT THAT, I'M NOT CERTAIN OF BUT THE FELLA THAT DID IT UP ORIGINALLY ADDED JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING "GADGET WISE"... GUAGES, COMPASS, RADAR, AND SO ON.
I DON'T KNOW THE ROUTING SYSTEM FOR BRINGING POWER TO THE COIL AND I HOPE THIS SHOP CAN FIGURE IT OUT BEFORE TOO MANY HOURS ADD UP. IF YOU HAVE SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS NOW THAT WE (THEY) HAVE ASSESSED A PROBLEM WITH SPARK, I WELCOME YOUR INPUT. I WILL RESPECT YOUR DUE.
Thanks for the update Rick. Any thing that can pull the power away from the ignition is suspect. My GUESS and it is just a guess is the Electronic control Module is internally ( Transistors inside short out) and can cause this very problem. I would imagine it has Duraspark II on it. You have changed the distributor but have you changed the control module?? The slightly voltage dropping a bit with the key on is normal. The power has to come from the same souce and if other components in the system are on a small voltage drop is normal and should not affect the engine starting cold or hot.
I will have to say that this Van has really put you through the mill. Sometimes it is best to take it to a shop where they can test it when it is in the NO Start mode. I wish you the Best with the diagnosis. Be sure and let me know what they find if you have the time.
THANKS DALE.. I DID SWAP THE IGNITION MODULE EARLY ON WITH ANOTHER USED (& SHOULD BE GOOD) ELECTRONIC IGNITION MODULE. I HAVE ANOTHER ONE I COULD TRY THAT'S FROM A RECENT HIGH PERFORMANCE CHANGE UP THAT I GOT FROM A FRIEND. IT'S A MOTORCRAFT MODULE WITH "BLUE STRIP" ON THE AREA WHERE THE WIRES COME OUT OF THE RESIN ENCASED BACK... **NOTE; I DID NOT CHANGE THE DISTRIBUTOR. IN YOUR REPLY YOU USED THE TERM "ELECTRONIC CONTROL MODULE"... IS THAT THE SAME AS THE ELECTRONIC IGNITION MODULE THAT I HAVE BEEN CALLING IT - A METAL BOX THAT HAS 6 WIRES COMMING OUT OF THE RESIN BACK ABOUT 6 INCHES LONG AND 2 PLUG IN CONNECTORS WITH TWO CONTACTS IN ONE PLUG IN AND 4 CONTACTS IN THE OTHER - OR DO YOU MEAN SOMETHING ELSE ?
THE DROP IN VOLTAGE WOULD HAPPEN WHEN WE PLUGGED IN THE COIL - WHILE THE KEY WAS 'ON' AND THE CARTER PUMP WAS RUNNING AS IT SHOULD WHEN THE KEY IS ON....
IT IS AT A 'SHOP' CALLED WEST MOUNTAIN AUTOMOTIVE HERE IN EDMONTON ALBERTA... THEY'VE ADJUSTED TWO CARBS FOR ME IN THE PAST...
THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR INTEREST AND INPUT.... RICK.
Thanks for the update. If you DID not swap out the distributor look for the magnetic pick module up in the distributor to be bad. Sometime they will open when hot. Yes the ECU is the same as the Electronic Control Module. Actually the module is inside the distributor itself. If it is the magnetic pickup module is bad they will get an open circuit on one or more of the wires back to the ECU when it's hot and not when it is cold. I am sure West Mountain Automotive will do you a good job of isolating the problem but I will continue to advise you as needed. Let me know when you get the call that say " We need to replace _________ ! You do not want to be rude but that last thing you need right now is a PARTS REPLACER. That is what we call them in the industry. These folks just start replacing things IN HOPES of stumbling on to the right burned out component. What you need is a GOOD AUTOMOTIVE DIAGNOSTICIAN that can isolate and then repair the problem. It may take some parts but it also could be a wiring harness problem.
Hang in there Rick and let me know.
THANKS AGAIN DALE.. I DO HAVE AN EXTRA DISTRIBUTOR FROM A PREVIOUS 460 SO IF THE INTERNAL PIECE CAN BE SWAPPED FAIRLY EASILY WE COULD GIVE THAT A TRY.
AS OF 4PM MTN TIME TUESDAY, THE TECH / OWNER OF THE SHOP HAS NOT YET BEEN ABLE TO ISOLATE THE PROBLEM - I THINK PARTLY DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE HAS OTHER THINGS TO CONTEND WITH AND WHEN HE LEAVES IT FOR A WHILE TO DO SOMETHING ELSE AND THEN COMES BACK TO IT, IT'S COOL ENOUGH TO WORK. HE TELLS ME THAT HE CAN RUN IT IDLING FOR ABOUT 15 MINUTES AND THE NO SPARK CONDITION SHOW UP.....
I HOPE THE DAY IS BEING GOOD TO YOU...THANKS, RICK.
No Problem Rick,
Keep me advised.
GOOD DAY DALE... WELL IT TURNED OUT TO BE THE PICK-UP MODULE - STATOR , IN THE DISTRIBUTOR.... THE SHOP SWAPPED IN THE USED ONE I HAD AND IT'S BEEN STARTING EVER SINCE. I TOOK IT FOR A RUN WITH MY 5,000 LB TRAVEL TRAILER ON SUNDAY AND IT RAN WELL. GOOD OPERATING TEMP IN THE LOW NORMAL RANGE AND THE OIL PRESSURE RUNS AT ABOUT 25PSI. ON THE AFTER MARKET GUAGE AND WITHIN NORMAL ON THE STOCK GUAGE.
IT HAS A GEAR VENDORS OVERDRIVE UNIT ON IT WHICH REALLY SLOWS DOWN THE ENGINE. ( IT DOESN'T HAVE A TACH THOUGH) IT HAS BEEN PUFFING A FAIR BIT OF BLUE UPON STARTING AND FROM WHAT I KNOW, THAT'S USUALLY VALVE SEALS. THE DOWN SIDE IS THAT IT SEEMED TO USE CLOSE TO A LITRE OF OIL ON MY 60 MILE RUN AT 65 MPH. SO I AM A BIT LEARY OF USING IT ON MY 600 MILE ROUND TRIP COMMING UP. IS THERE ANY TYPE OF CONDITIONER THAT COULD HELP WITH THE OIL CONSUMPTION IF IT'S THE VALVE SEALS.
I WANT TO ADD A BONUS FOR YOU, I HOPE THERE IS THAT OPTION ONCE I ACCEPT YOUR ANSWER AGAIN.... I GUESS I'LL FIND OUT IN A MOMENT.. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR ADVICE DALE & HAVE A GREAT WEEK. RICK.
Well Congratulations Rick. We finally nailed the little bugger. As far as using oil, the There is no magic additive (Wish there was sometimes) that is going to really help at all. What you are describing is worn piston rings and cylinders. I sure the valve seals are leaking some also. If it is just blowing blue smoke at an idle, that is valve stem seals ( which can be replaced fairly easily) but if you are going down the road at say 60 mph, let off the throttle down to say 45 an then step on it and a bunch of blue smoke comes out, that is oil control rings. I am sure you know this is a major repair or engine replacement.
Best of Luck. There is a Bonus Section on our accept page.
PS You can use 40 weight motor oil temporarily and it will slow down the oil burning but nothing else is going to help I do not care what it says on the can.