Okay, since the cables visibly look wrong, we can start there.
The top cable is the accelerator cable, and should not be significantly loose. You can adjust it by loosening the two locknuts on the bracket the cables loom through. Loosen them and slide the cable to remove the excess slack, spinning the nuts as you go to allow more travel. Once in position, snug the nuts down.
Start the vehicle and note the idle.
Warmed up, you want the idle to be between 700 and 800rpm with the AC off, and between 750 and 850 rpm with the AC on.
Readjust the cable as necessary then tighten nuts down completely once in position.
If this gets the idle correct and you still have stalling issues, there may be other things going on. Likely the cables were just never final adjusted. Leave the lower cable as is for now, as it affects shift characteristics, we don't want to fool with that yet if it is shifting fine. I'm not sure about the 1 1/8" measurement you mentioned; if you could get a picture of that maybe it would help me out.
Let me know how that goes.
For cleaning, use a can of carb cleaner or brake parts cleaner, sprayed on a rag and use it to wipe out the inside of the throttle body (open the throttle plate to get all the way in). Do not spray into the throttle body, only spray onto a rag and then wipe it out with the wet rag.
If it is real dirty, the idle will increase significantly just from cleaning.
I have no idea what the bolt would go to....there isn't anything like that they would have removed, unless the tire place started taking the lower dash apart think it was the gas pedal cable? Even then I can't picture what the bolt would have come out of. Only real thing you can do is take it back to them and tell em to find out where it goes... have to watch em though, might just throw it away and say they "installed it" :(
See if you can get a picture of the cable for me tomorrow, and let me know how you fair with the cleaning/top cable adjustment tomorrow (weather permitting of course). I'm here every night if it takes a few days, so no worries .
I get that too sometimes :)
Sounds good, I'll be here.
No problem :)
It does not appear that there is a lot of room for adjustment on the top cable.
Is the lower cable 'tight'?
I saw the pads :)
I don't have my documentation for this vehicle with me tonight, but will have it in the AM and can give you the proper adjustment for the lower cable then.
When you do not run the defog or AC, does everything otherwise seem OK?
Does your vehicle have a tachometer, and if so, what are the idle speeds with defog on and off?
It looks a tad off, I want to verify with the specified adjustment tomorrow before I judge it though. It really shouldn't have any effect on this, I'm just curious how good of a job they did at this point... the upper cable looks odd, which is what has me wondering.
However I am still on that original train of thought that they may have disconnected the battery to do this job and lost idle memory.
Do you feel comfortable removing the intake hose from the throttle body and looking down into the throttle body/plate with a flashlight?
Ahh, another piece of the puzzle... I didn't know (or forgot probably) that the battery was where this all started... that makes sense about your idle issue right after replacement, the need for the felt pads etc.
Cleaning was going to be my next instruction; clean it out well, opening the throttle plate (twist the wheel the cables are on) to really get in there. You should find a decent amount of black/brown mess. Use a rag sprayed down with brake clean or carb cleaner. Do not spray into the intake, only spray the rag then use the rag to scrub.
If you have particularly troublesome bits, using a flat instrument you can scrape at it gently... the carbon will give long before the metal does, so be gentle, no need to rough it up.
Once it is nice and clean put the hose back on and check operation. It will likely idle very high at first, that is ok, just give it a moment to adjust.
In the morning I will get the lower cable adjustment spec and see f I can find a nice diagram of the flasher location for you.
No worries on time if it take until this weekend to get to the throttle body, I'm here a lot as you probably noticed. I will do my best to have my Vitara information home this weekend if possible.
I'll have that other info for you in the morning.
haha, I'd pay for one of those!
I have a hard time believing it, but the flasher is $70 from Suzuki. I'm not certain if you can use an aftermarket one in this vehicle or not, as I've never had to change one.
um, very small.... 0.03-0.06 inches.
Definitely less than you have on there... its function is not as important however as the bolted position of the cable, which is why I said lets wait and see how the cleaning goes first. With the button installed, there isn't anything you can do to un-do it really; the cable will never adjust anywhere near far enough to bring it within spec, thats why you have to crimp the button on after installation/adjustment. While 'wrong', it will not effect anything in its current position; if it were too far off the other direction, it would prevent the throttle from closing all the way and cause issues, but not in this direction.
Hehe, ya the idea is you get the cable positioned correctly, then install that to prevent the cable from retracting too far.. but the throttle body prevents it from going any farther now anyway. If it is shifting normal, we'll leave it be.
Talk to you Saturday :)
If you have been driving it all this time the system should have adapted itself by now if it was due to the throttle body cleaning vs battery disconnection. Typically a week or two of regular driving and the problem would be completely resolved if that were the problem
If it is still acting up it sounds like something might have gone wrong with the cable installation, perhaps being bound up somewhere etc. At that point it might be in your best interests to bring your concerns to the shop that did the install in the event that the cable was damaged etc during installation. Knowing that this issue occurred as a direct result of having the cable replaced and the computer having had time to adapt, there is little other possibility.
I'm not in front of my service manual right now (long story), but there should be two electrical connection there.
One is a throttle position sensor, which helps determine the amount of fuel required for the gas pedal position. While it sounds like this might be related, it likely is not.
The other item is the Idle Air Control valve. As this sounds like it might be related, it possibly could be. It controls the amount of air being allowed into the engine when there is little to no pressure ont he gas pedal.
When the ac (defog) is turned on, or the steering wheel is turned at idle, the IAC will allow additional air through to adjust for the increased load. If it is not functioning, then turning the defog/AC on could stall the vehicle. My problem is why would it just up and quit at exactly the time you had the cable replaced? It's possible, but not entirely probable.
With the vehicle running and in gear, monitor the idle speed on your tachometer, then apply turning pressure to he steering wheel (turn it just enough that you can hear the engine load up) and see what results you get on the tachometer. If the idle dips low and does not recover, the IAC is not working, if it dips the recovers, the IAC is working.
Just read back a little bit to refresh. You had mentioned that when you started it up cold it had a fast idle then reduced itself to normal (and eventually to the bogging don area). This is an indication that the IAC is operating normally. If the IAC was stuck/inoperable, you would either have had fast idle stuck on or low idle to begin wit when starting it cold.
Another possibility, not that either of us want to go there, is that there may have been some issue/problem with the idle during the cable install and someone fooled with the manual idle adjustment screw to get it into a 'shippable' condition. Not something you want to have happened
Hi again. Sorry to hear things are rough. As things are progressing, I do think a diagnostic visit would be a good idea. With the reverse problem going from rough running to odd rattles/noises, attention should be made as soon as you can, and with someone in person that can locate the noise, identify if i is related, etc in case this may lead to a safety concern.
Regarding the $100 diagnostic, the way the auto industry is right now, absolutely you should be able to get help that way. In my shop right now, you can come in with $45 and get a slew of problems checked out. Business is slow everywhere, and for single issues etc, we've been diagnosing for free if people don't com e in with a grocery list of items.
The important thing is that if you do not take it to the original shop (or the sublet shop I guess), you need to be CERTAIN that the shop knows the history, what was done prior involving the TV cable etc. Even if there is no relation, its things like that that make a huge difference to the person examining the vehicle in the event that there is a relation.
Thanks for the Accept. I really hope you get things squared away. Please let me know what happens with Goodyear.
Wow. In the nicest possible way, it is time to stop going to Goodyear and find a reputable shop or dealership if you plan on keeping the car.
The sound could be as simple as an alternator or AC compressor with a bad bearing, or as complex as an upper engine oiling issue or piston wrist pin. The latter two entirely possible if you have been losing oil for longer than you just became aware. At 260k, the odds are more than good that you are burning oil. Your car won't really tell you that there is a problem until there is no oil left, which is when the oil pressure light will come on. Because of this it is very possible to run the vehicle down to a quart or so of oil, have no light at most times, but have oil starvation issues at higher speed.
Because of the age of the vehicle and it's miles, it really is important that you take it to a reputable shop from now on if you intend to keep it. As you have seen, chain stores and the like will opt to blow you off rather than try to get involved and risk unraveling new problems that they are unfamiliar with.
The on-off is what made me mention alt/AC... a lot of times a noise on the belt drive will get amplified then quieted as the AC cycles.
I understand what you mean about shops... I know how hard it is to find a reliable trustworthy mechanic, as I hear horror stories on a regular basis... often times when vehicles are towed into me after being at "Ed's" etc for 3 weeks without getting fixed, etc. Once you find one, hang on to them :)
With the miles you have, the oil consumption, and some unresolved issues, a new car I'm sure is sounding pretty good. I have no personal reservations over the new Subaru's. They are, and always really have been good vehicles. The only complaint I have ever run into with them is people complaining it is difficult getting certain things warrantied... that may be a local dealer issue, however.
Regarding the noisy lifter, that was what I was getting at with upper oiling issue. If you have a collapsed lifter or a blockage, that could create a similar noise as to what you describe.
There is a lot to be said for older vehicles... it's not just the reliability from simplicity, it's the build quality as well
I don't want to say what would happen if you continue driving the vehicle, as their are so many issues (sounds etc) that really need to be heard in person to be 100% accurate in diagnosis, the odds of misdiagnosing are much higher for something like this. You do know what the worst case scenario is....for the best case you really need to have a pro check it out in person. Considering your reservations about shops in your area, I would say the dealer is going to be your best bet, even if just for a diagnosis.
I know how that goes, trust me :(
Keep me posted!
Wow. $400 is a fair deal on a timing set for that car if that's all you need.
Please let me know what they find regarding the noise and the cable if you end up repairing it.
Sure, there are two chains in the system.
Honestly, if they are willing to do it for $400, I'd run with it as that is a very fair price (book time is closer to $600). It is not a difficult job if you do these regularly, but it isn't a good job to rough your knuckles on if you aren't in the engine bay regularly.
The oil pan, valve cover, and all front covers will need to be removed to access the chains.
It's a tough call with the next step... if $400 gets you on the road again and everything is fine, I'd keep the vehicle personally if it isn't giving you any other issues. Remember a $400 bill one month, another $400 4 months later, etc is a lot better than a $300-500 payment every single month :)
The big thing is if you feel safe in the vehicle. If you have lost confidence or fear getting stranded you will sleep better if you move on.
I'd stay away from the Prius (joking aside) just based on its end-of-warranty-life costs. I have run across far too many that have had extensive electronics issues once outside of warranty, and nothing that was 'hybrid' warrantied. And then 100k seems to be when the bills really start coming in on them.
I've heard nothing bad about the Subaru line as we spoke about before, but I do not work on them very frequently at all. I wish I had more information on them for you I just don't see enough to really comment though.
For staying in the same vehicle type, RAV4s do fairly well if they have been maintained; if you don't mind stepping up to a larger vehicle the Jeeps and Grand Cherokees are very low cost to maintain, and while plagued with the typical Chrysler electrical issues, it seems to be much lesser on the Jeep line.
Hyundai is a safe bet on new and just about everything they've made in the past few years as well. They have turned into quite the bulletproof company compared to 10-15 years back when we all sat around telling Hyundai jokes :)
Most new Mitsubishis are extremely reliable, however unless you are a good negotiator the price of admission is sometimes a little too high on them.... and I work for Mitsubishi... they just price them a hair too high.
Hehe, learned a few new ones :) It is unfortunate Hyundai doesn't have anything with the truck platform you are after. The full truck suspension really limits your options, but I understand the attraction.
Subarus are not that popular around here, because... well it's flat and hot everywhere, not much need for AWD. We actually just got a Subaru dealer a few years back (which since went out of business and picked up again at a new owner), before that it was aXXXXXsouth or aXXXXXnorth to get to a Subaru dealership.... which is a lot of why I don't see many.
I'm not sure how to work the customer end of the website unfortunately... if it is like the Expert end, there should be a Tools link near the top, and on that page should be an Add Funds link, should you need it.
Regarding your chains... there is a guide on the right hand side of the main chain, a tensioner on the left lower end of the main chain, and a 'adjuster' that works with the tensioner on the upper left side of the main chain (left/right looking straight at the engine)
The dohc chain has a tensioner on the lower left corner of the chain.
If they are certain the chain is toast... I bet would attribute it to fatigue breaking the chain, or one of the guides wearing out (plastic) from age, allowing major slop in the chain (imagine all tension being relieved when it gets worn through). Even when the tensioners fail, they still usually hold enough to keep the engine running safely, just noisily.
Lemmie see if I can find some decent tensioner images....
Main chain tensioner and guides:
Yeah they're all plastic... every chain engine I've seen anyway. Metal would be very noisy I would imagine :)
The whole front end is oiled, the chain helps deliver oil to the upper engine area.
The clacking noise, if chain related, could be either... and actually my bet for chain noise would be the right hand guide failing, as that is where you would have the most amount of chain travel in the event of a failure; the noise is likely it hitting something from all the excess travel..
The old Toyota truck four cylinders had a similar setup, and that same section of chain would clack like you wouldn't believe as it hit the timing case... eventually rubbing through to a water passage and making a huge mess (and totaling the engine sometimes)
Heres a quick look at the components in real life (a kit from an ebay seller)
The top center unit is the dohc chain tensioner and plastic guide attached ("2" in the dohc picture previously).
Directly below it is the main chain tensioner adjuster, plastic guide attached ("3" in the main chain picture previously)
On the left center is the main chain tensioner ("2" in the main chain picture previously)
Just to the right and between the chains is the right side chain guide, all plastic ("1" in the main chain picture previously)
They should have the parts in stock at the dealer. The job calls for almost 6 hours of labor, so the 600-650 range is totally believable... more believable than the 400 unfortunately. Definitely have them save the parts so we can ID the failure :)
Seeya in a few days.
If the timing goes severely out, the valves can contact the pistons during engine revolution. This is very bad.... requires at minimum the head to be removed and valve(s) replaced, worse, the guides can be damaged... worst, the head damaged or pistons damaged.
If this happens at idle/cranking, damage is less likely... the fact that the engine turns over is a fairly good sign, it means the valves aren't stuck out and preventing rotation... it does not guarantee there is no damage though, just means it is less likely.
Wow.... I'm not sure to think about the diagnosis as far as the noises etc... keep me posted with what happens.
The sensor is located on the back of the cylinder head and calls for about a half hour labor to install, plus whatever time used to diagnose/come to that conclusion.
Hehe, it should be mostly aluminum and plastic. It is a Hall-Effect sensor which incorporates an integrated circuit amplifier... it's really quite basic in design but exceptional in performance.... they are very precise in function and that has a bit to do with the pricing on them. I do not have any pricing information on this particular one but it is not uncommon for these sensors to go from 150-300$
I have an acquaintence with a Sorento (05 or 06 I think it was) and she likes it quite a bit. I've only had to change the oil and one bad gas cap since she has had it. I believe last she was over it was around 60-65k miles or so
lol, you're something else :)
Well....shit.....never mind my english. Car broke down in Irvine a week ago Monday. Been sitting in Santa Ana at Suzuki Depot while they do whatever it is they do. Supposed to be the largest inventory of parts out here. Doubt that. They didn't have mine to start with....cam shaft sensor they said....three days later. Got to order it. Have it by monday.....well that was a week in the toilet. Following wednesday....the ECM crapped out too...no signal or whatever they said. Soooo...$290 cam sensor...$1600 new ECM. Right now I been out of work almost 2 weeks. Not even sure I have a job to go back to. No thanks on the parts. They put the thing back to gether and I gotta cough up $255 for services rendered and the tow. Right now I'm waiting on a loan application so I can get this 08 Kia Spectra they got on the lot. $8600 and 430000 plus miles. Nice looking car...from what I can see on the internet. Not happy about the front wheel drive tho........beggers can't be choosers right. I know when the boots go; the joints are next. Been there. Since the Vitara is out of commision; they are going to be generous and give me $500 for it.
Ya know...what is it with todays cars? The computers programed to crap out somewhere between 150 and 250 thousand miles?? My Dakota did the same thing around 150. $1000 for that one. I know one thing....if I'm gonna keep driving for a living, I'm getting AAA....no more tows and rentals out of my pocket. And I still haven't heard dick about the loan.....I don't expect to get it. My credit looks like shit anyway. Hope ya know something about Kia's....'cause if'n I get the thing and it sneezes wrong...guess who I'm calling? You've been the best.
Good move passing on the repair. As I sad before, I was curious as to how they came up with the cam sensor... and that's as nice as I can put it. Following with the ECM smells like just pure incompetence.
Sounds like you are ready to move on, and that could be a good idea; I don't foresee an inexpensive.. just the feeling I get from the circumstances.
I would opt to keep the car though if they are only giving you $500... assuming you can have it towed home for $100 or less. I'm sure you can get at least that through a local sale. I often buy cars like that from people who refused to let a car lot give them $xxx.... buy them for(NNN) NNN-NNNNdepending on the vehicle/age, and fix it to resell.
As far as the boot/axle deal on FWD. Rest assured, those days are mostly behind the platform.... well, VW/Audi excluded, they still have tons of problems with them. For the rest of manufacturers the axles are pretty reliable even in ultra-high miles vehicles. The time of 50,000 mile axles problems are gone thankfully.
If you end up with the Kia,I'm pretty fair in that department, and there are quite a few others with more familiarity with them than I. At that age/mileage I wouldn't expect a whole lot of us talking though :)
The whole deal sounds like a big crock o shit to me. Nobody going to get me to belive that all that went out when what more than likely happen was the timing chain slipped and the engine quit. And come on...say it like ittis...I got the whole dictionary on 4 letter words. U'r not going to offend me. Hell I even make up some I never heard of....heheheehe. Anyway; they claim no signal out of either. Car has compression....they say. I SAY..when the car took a dump...I was making a left turn....the clack noise up front got louder....the car felt like it lurched forward and something let go. When I tried to restart it; it labored but it acted like it wanted to start.
Funny how U mentioned fixing for resale....that thought already crossed my mind. I had totaly planned on keeping an I on their web site...Suzuki Depot.com/Kia Depot.com...just incase that's what was going to happen; provided I part with it. And something just ocurred to me....how do I know they put my old parts back and not something else.? Well this that and the other thing...still boils down to the fact that I don't have a car....kind a sound like Ferris Bueller....have to envy yours.
And the cheapest price I got for tow from Santa Ana to Colton was $275. Witch still seems awfull steep. Alot better than I got from the first outfit tho...$570! It only cost me something like $350 to tow my Dakota from San Diego home when the engine crapped...threw a valve or something....$2600 for a used engine. Past history......but ya know that engine was clacking too....more so in the valve cover than the top front like the Zuki.
If I do tow the old gal home....I will open her up myself....gonna need a Mitchell Manuel or somebody that sleeps with one....for step by step. Know anybody like that ?
Hehe... I hate to make 100% assertions when I haven't physically looked at a car or had someone to relay information etc.... but they are wrong :)
Even if the ECM is bad, then they were wrong on the cam sensor... one way or another, they blew it in my opinion. If someone comes in to my shop and I tell them they need a $500 repair, if that didn't fix the car, I'm eating the repair. I don't tell people "okay this too, and for the same thing, and I need another $1600". I would not be in business long.
If you can't afford to tow the car home, at least beat em up on the price if you find out you are approved. I don't see why they would not triple that price if you get approved. They know you need a car, and they surely have plenty of room to negotiate on the price. Further, if they are so sure it is an ECM, tell them they can always buy a used one for 1/4 the price and resell the car. Let them deal with it if it doesn't fix anything.
If you do opt to keep it and tear it open... checking the chains is probably the first thing I would do. Myself and plenty others here have access to the technical information needed, you just have to provide the tools, time, and be comfortable with the work. The only concern I have is not knowing how many issues we are dealing with, as it seems there were a few different problems piling up.... but we'd just have to take things one at a time.
I'm with U on the one thing and another........repair this replace that....I can do that. Run to AutoZone or Napa and buy parts 'till I find the culprit causing the problem. I'd like to know HOW they determined those two parts were bad. Diagnostic do that?? Or they just didn't like the way they looked. And I'm not against doing a timing chain....done it before. Just don't like the fact I got to tear down half the engine; so to speak to do it. And your also right on uping the price on it....the rear tires and the battery are only a few months old. The brakes were overhauled less than a year ago. I think $1500 just for that and parts is fair. I'll find out Saturday....have a ride down there. Hell...got $120 worth of crap in the car...heeheehehee.
If it comes to pass that I tow it home....do the timing chain....the car runs like a top after...what do I do with Toms Truck Center...aka Suzuki/Kia Depot??? Ya know what...think I'll look em up on the BBB. If they are accredited; wonder what the rating is. Let ya know. And still wonder if MY old parts went back in the car?.?. Can't hardly prove that. I'm starting to feel a tug where the sun don't shine. I tug back if need be. With both hands. Know what I mean chili bean?..and I still gotta get some wheels in the mean time. Maybe the place I got the Zuki from can help....hell they bent over backwards to get me in that one...only problem is...they went into luxury cars like BMW and Mercedes. We shall see on everything.
Well......The Vitara is history. Had no choice. I had to take the 500 on trade and get something so I can get back to work. Made more sense to scrap the thing than tow it home and get new wheels too. I would have had 2 car payments a month......NO WAY Jose'! I financed it for 5 years...hopeffully it will live for 3 and then I'll trade it in. Not trusting electronics in cars beyond that. Been screwed once to often. The something I got is an '08 Kia Spectra...43,500+ on the miles...$8595.00. With financing for 5 years and all the other garbage...15 plus. Car still has 16,000 mile factory warranty on it... cause non transferable.....have no warrenty if Kia finds out I'm using it for work. I'll run the rest of the 100 thousand miles out by the end of the year anyway. The only problem I have with the car....when I start the thing...I can't hear the engine running. Only way I know it's on; the radio is still playing and the rpm is showing about 750+.Hheeheheee
Maybe I should take it back and have 'em get some noise out of it. Maybe a front engine clack or a back fire....Stand back Murphy...I'll kill ya if'n ya get near my new ride...heheheeeheee. Check out Kia Depot.com if ya wanna see my new wheels. Click on pre-owned...if my car is still in there; will be the first one. My major complaint with the car...the ashtray is smaller than a pack of smokes. Hheeheheeeheheee. Got enough cup holders for the LA Lakers. But I be a happy camper...my payments are about the same for this ride as the Zuki...20 bucks less to be exact. Beer money.
One thing that bothers me about the Zuki is the fact it was still in the service bay with the hood up; like they were going to start repairs....they must have been in the computer...there was a cover hanging loose near the glove box that I never saw before. Oh well.....they can pour gas on it and have a barbeque....I'M GOING BACK TO WORK!! YeeeHaaa. I think.
I'm glad you are back on the road. The new car sounds like a good deal, I hope it serves you well.
Just keep it away from the Quickie-fix shops!