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CDNRobb
CDNRobb, Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 124
Experience:  Licensed Interprovincial technician in Canada. Well versed in Suzuki, Ford, GM.
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i am working on a 1999 suzuki swift 1.3 4 cylinder, it was

Customer Question

i am working on a 1999 suzuki swift 1.3 4 cylinder, it was removed from a donor vehicle for a customer, and prior to removal it was ran and had good compression and oil pressure with no issues. apon installation in my customers vehicle, they replaced the timing belt and removed the upper and lower timing gears from crank and cam, and after putting it all back together it will not run :( when engine is turned over, it sound like cam is 180 degrees out as it fires back through the intake, although when cam is rotated 180 degrees and belt is re installed, it builds no compression like it is on the exhaust stroke..... i know there is an " I " and " E " on the cam gear, for intake and exhaust, and there are holes for alignment pin in the center of the gear with the samer marks, which ones do i use to make sure it is timed right???? photos or any input would be great, this has been a 3 week problem, and it ran GREAT before the belt and gears were removed.......
Submitted: 5 years ago.
Category: Car
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
HiCustomer Thank you for asking your question on JustAnswer.

Hopefully this will help... let me know.


Step 1:
Jack and block the front of the car.
Also remove the lower front right plastic engine splash guard (the one on the bottom, not inside the wheel well) for access.

Step 2:
Gather together a few tools.
These tools are necessary. You may use others as you remove stuck hardware.
Image
The spray bottle has Isospropyl alchohol (IPA) in it.
With air, IPA, and the flashlight I clean things up as I remove parts.
That way I can inspect them and find any problems right away.
With the rags and tape you can block the sparky holes and throttle body.
Image
3/8" drive 17mm socket/extension/ratchet, 1/4" drive 10mm, socket/extension/ratchet,14mm socket and 1/4" handle-driver, 13/16" sparky socket, 10 & 12 mm wrenches

Step 3:
Move everything out of the way.
Remove the aircleaner housing and the spark plugs (easier to turn the engine over). We'll get to the TB cover next
Image
(This is my post-mod TB 1/2 cover, there are some pics of the process in my gallery)
Image
In order to get the timing belt cover off easier, remove the water pump pulley. You can use the strap wrench later to hold the water pump while
backing off the bolts if the belt doesn't hold it.
To remove the accessory belt loosen the 3 attach bolts for the alternator
and rock it toward the front of the car.
You must also remove the crank pulley ( the big wheel at the bottom). I
used the ratchet combinations seen in toolset picture 2 to undo the four
10mm bolts holding the pulley on. The top "X" indicates where the top
half of the TB cover would normally be)

Here is a picture inventory of parts removed. As you can see I was also
changing the plug wires and dizzy at the time.
Image

Step4;
Image
Now you have access to the timing belt. Loosen Number 1 and 2 bolts,
and slide the tensioner all the way toward the water pump and retighten
number 2 temporarily. Slide the timing belt off.


Step 5:
Synchronize the crank and cam pulleys.
Image
By using the 17mm socket/ratchet you can turn the crankshaft (clockwise) to the #1 TDC compression position. I used the threaded pipe
at the bottom of tool set picture 2 to check compression. It just threads right into the #1 sparky hole. Then you can use your finger as a
pressure gauge to feel for pressure as you turn the engine over.

If there is pressure as the crankshaft sprocket key approaches the mark on the block then you are on the compression stroke and TDC is when the key and the guide mark are together.

Use the same socket to turn the camshaft until the appropriate marks are lined up.

Once your engine looks like the diagram, slide the timing belt on, reset the tensioner the belt and tighten bolts 1 and 2.

Step 6:
At this point I put the crank pulley back on with just two bolts and fired
her up for a few seconds just to make sure that the timing wasn't
drastically wrong.

When everything checks out you can remove the crank pulley,
install the the timing belt cover, reinstall and torque the crank pulley,
reinstall and torque the water pump pulley and reinstall the accessory belt.
Finally reinstall the air cleaner and sparkies.
Image
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
i have been told by the mechanic working on this project that the steps you have mentioned have been done. as stated, all marks on crank and cam are a specified, although there in an " I " ( intake ) and " E " ( exhaust ) timing mark on the cam gear, and corresponding dowel pin holes to align cam gear onto cam. it is building comperssion, it has spark , and it is getting air. when firing, you can hear it going back thru the intake, as if 180 degrees out. however, when rotated 180 degrees, it does not build compression. these marks " I and E " are not 180 degrees apart, and my concern is that one of them is for the dowel on the cam, and the other is for the outer timing mark...... i feel it is drastically out of time, and that is causing the misfire. if it was 20-30 even as much as 40 out, it would attempt to crank over and start, and this is not happening and these marks i think is the cause. im hoping to find something that shows these marks on a running motor as a reference to how this cam gear needs to be set into place....
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.

I was wondering if the firing order was correct...

graphic
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
well, this is a non distributor style setup, and it has 2 coils mounted on top of the spark plugs, each coil powers 2 spark plugs. i verifyed that the coils are hooked up to the correct plugs, based on photos i have found online , so i think we have that covered too..... any other ideas i can look for????
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
So how do the gears look when you're on TDC on the number one cylinder?
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
ALL TIMING MARKS ARE IN LINE AS THE SHOULD BE WITH TDC ON # XXXXX I JUST WENT AND LOOKED.....
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
I'm scared to say that this is an interference engine meaning that its possible one or more valves may be bent because of the piston(s).
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
THAT WRRIES ME AS WELL, ALTHOUGH ACCROSS THE BOARD IT IS BUILDING 150 POUNDS OF COMPRESSION ON ALL 4 CYLINDERS.... WITH THAT KIND OF COMPRESSION, EVEN IF IT DID HAVE A VALVE, IT SEEMS TO ME IT WOULD STILL BE ATTEMPTING TO START....
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
And your positive you're getting fuel and spark and the plug wires are in the right firing order. Have you tried spraying starter fluid.
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
If you pull a plug and connect the wire and hold it close to the engine the arc should be blue to indicate a strong enough current.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
IT HAS A STRONG SPARK... WE CHECKED THAT.....
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
The only thing I can think of is the fuel pressure isn't strong enough to open the poppets of the fuel injectors.
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.

HiCustomer/p>

 

To help car dude out....

 

The 1.3L is NOT an interference motor. I am in agreement with you that the cam gear was put on wrong position.

 

I have a known good 1.3L head in my garage right now and 2 running Swift's with the 1.3L in my driveway. I can take photos for you and should be able to guide you through this, showing you the belt alignment marks and the cam dowel position.

 

One thing to check beforehand, please make sure the keyway did not fall out of the crank shaft when the cog was removed or replaced.

 

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
I WILL CONTINUE TO FOG MY BRAIN ON THIS MATTER, I FEEL BAD AS IT IS WITH A VERY LONG STANDING GOOD CUSTOMER, AND WE ARE BOTH BAFFLED.... I WILL PROVIDE INFORMATION AS IT IS SUPPLIED TO ME, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE ATTEMPT.....
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.
if you give me about 15 minutes I will go take detailed photos right now.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
IM LEAVING THE OFFICE TO GO RACING, BUT I WILL CHECK IN LATER TONITE AND SEE IF WHERE THE MARKS ARE IN THE SAME SPOT AS MINE. I LOOKED AT THE CORE MOTOR, AND THEY WERE THE SAME.... ANY INPUT WOULD HELP, THANK YOU
Expert:  Car Dude replied 5 years ago.
150 psi compression isn't bad on all cylinders.
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.

Here in photo #1 I've aligned the timing mark shown by the screwdriver:

 

graphic

 

In photo #2, the cam dowel for the cam gear should be roughly in the 10-11 o'clock position.....again pointed out with the screwdriver:

 

graphic

 

In the last photo, the "extra" timing mark points to roughly the 4-5 o'clock position and the "extra" dowel hole should pretty much point straight down:

 

graphic

 

There is a combination of 4 positions this can be in and it will only run in one. The big thing will be making sure the cam dowel is in the correct position. I believe the cam gear is installed on the wrong hole and the engine won't run with either timing mark that way.

As previously stated, please make sure that the crank keyway is still holding the crank cog.

 

Let me know how you make out and we can go from there.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
i agree, i think it is out of time. thank you for the photos, although this cam gear is not the same as the one on my engine or my customers core. on my cam gear, and the core, it has a " I " and " E " stamped out the outer gear, and the same letters on the dowel pin holes on center of the gear..... so im still kind of stumped....... ill check on the crank keyway as well, and as for the upper end my struggle continues....
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.

Yes they used different cam gears over the years. I believe my 95 has the "I" and "E" on the cam gear, but I'm not prepared to pull the motor apart yet to take photos.

 

The key with the photos, is to make sure the cam dowel is in the right position in relation to the upper timing mark. If the dowel is in a different position, then the cam is rotated in the wrong spot.......meaning no matter how you try to line up the belt outer timing mark with the inside cover, it will always be off.

 

Suzuki pretty much used universal cam gears for the SOHC and DOHC 1.3 which is why you will see the I and E stamped.

Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.

Ok.....i couldn't resist......

 

I went and pulled my running motor cover off. Yes the cam gear is different as expected, BUT, mine only has 1 hole for the dowel and it points straight down.....which is different then the pic I provided. My timing belt looks like new too! hahahha

 

Here is how we are going to have to do it......I'm not giving up on you as I want your car running:

 

1: Verify for CERTAIN the cam dowel and crank keyway are still in place. If they are not, we are chasing our tail. If those are good.....

 

2. On the old core motor, if the belt is still on it, rotate the engine until the belt timing marks line up to their respective marks. Now look at the cam dowel. Which position is it in? Verify if it is in the same position as the motor in the car. If not, adjust as needed.

 

Lastly, if the first 2 don't get it running:

 

3. As I stated you have a 1 in 4 shot of timing it correctly. If you have tried both timing marks and neither work in ONE cam dowel position, pop the cam gear off, rotate it to the next dowel position and try the timing marks.

 

Since the motor is non-interference and you have good compression, I would not worry about a valve kissing a piston, the damage would have been done already when the belt was previously put on. Now with it being out of time and I don't know how long it has been cranked, I would advise removing the spark plugs to allow them to dry while you make any adjustments. It is probably flooded so if you do get the timing marks right, it may take an excessive amount of cranking to clear it out and to get it to fire. It could fool you into thinking the timing marks are still off. At least with dry plugs, you won't be unsure if the car isn't starting due to the timing being off or fuel soaked plugs.

 

One of these 3 should get it running. If by some reason it doesn't, report back and we can bang our heads against the wall some more.

Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.
Have you made any progress?
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
i havent got a chance to get back to my customers shop, i will today though and take the info above you provided and take a look. i know the crank keyway and cam dowel are in place, so i will work on the other items and see what i can do.... thank you for the input and patience
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.
Not a problem, that's what we are here for. Just keep me updated on if you get it running or if we need to dig deeper.
Customer: replied 5 years ago.
well, i tried it as your photos show, and got nothing. its not backfiring like it was previously either. so over the weekend i will continue to bang my head, and i may try and get over there and rotate the cam gear through the 4 options as you suggested, and if i can get it going i will let you know... thanks again for all your input...
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.

The photo of my head is not going to help in this scenario. I knew the cogs were different, but I thought the dowel position was constant. Please follow my steps posted after that.

 

Like I said, FIRST compare the cam dowel on the core motor to the one in the car with the belt marks lined up. Make sure the CAM DOWEL POSITION matches, If that can't be done due to the core motor missing parts, or being disassembled, then the LAST resort is running through the 4 positions (2 belt alignment marks per dowel spot). You obviously know the 2 outer timing belt marks are NOT working, so you will have to undo the bolt, remove the cam cog and place it in the other dowel hole.

 

Do pull the spark plugs as they are probably drenched and the car will probably not fire off right away.......which is what you need it to do in this case to verify the cam timing is correct.

 

You can't skip steps at this point or you could be running around in circles.

Customer: replied 5 years ago.
i will relay this info to the mechanic working on the vehicle, and keep you posted as to the status of my new found " boat anchor " and let you know what it finally took to make it start.... thank you for all your info...
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.

Sounds good.

 

Like I said, follow the above in order to make sure the cam gear is on the camshaft in the right position.

CDNRobb, Technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 124
Experience: Licensed Interprovincial technician in Canada. Well versed in Suzuki, Ford, GM.
CDNRobb and 13 other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Expert:  CDNRobb replied 5 years ago.
Have you got the car running?

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CDNRobb
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Licensed Interprovincial technician in Canada. Well versed in Suzuki, Ford, GM.