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Davo, Master technician
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Experience:  ASE Master Technician/Advanced Automotive Diagnostic Technician
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B3500: VAN..IT HAS A VIBRATION IN THE REAR..DEALER SHIP..auto trans

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WE ARE HAVING PROBLEM WITH A 95 VAN B3500 IT HAS A VIBRATION IN THE REAR AT ALL SPEEDS. A DEALER SHIP HAD A DEVICE ON IT TO TELL IT WHERE THE VIBRATION WAS BUT THEY STILL DONT KNOW. also the trains is a aspd auto trans mission, 3.9 gear ratio , 9.25 chrsyler rear end axle hope this is anoth info for you
 I would check or replace the u-joints and if the problem doesn't go away after that the differential will have to be disassembled for inspection.Pull the cover and look for metal in the gear oil which could indicate bearing failure.  
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPOSE ,BUT THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE ON THE VAN. THERE WAS KNOW METAL FOUND. THE DEALER SHIP RIGHT NOW IS PUTTING IN A NEW MOTOR MOUNT. I DONT KNOW WHAT THAT WILL DO BUT I GUESS EVERY LITTLE THING HELPS BUT DOESNT FIX IT.JULIE
 Did they balance the driveshaft or have it balanced?Did they road force balance the tires?Does the vibration go away if the vehicle is placed in neutral during the vibration?Are the torque convertor bolts tight?
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: YES THE DRIVE SHAFT WAS REPLACED AND ALSO THE GEARS IN THE PUMPKIN. NO THE VIBRATION DOESNT GO AWAY WHEN IN NEUTRAL. THE DEALERSHIP HAD A DEVICE ON FOR LOCATING THE VIBRATION BUT STILL CANT SEEM TO FIGURE OUT WHERE IN THE REAR IT IS.THANK YOU ALSO TIRES HAVE BEEN ROTATED AND BAL.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
THE ONLY OTHER THING WE CAN THINK OF DOING IS TO REPLACE THE HOLE REAR AXLE

 I've seen this problem before on Dodge vans. If the truck is lifted on a single post lift, when the rear end drops from leaving the ground, the driveshaft will bend against the edge of the lift. Examine the driveshaft carefully for a small crease in the tube near the front. If you find one, that's what happened.


Also, go back over all the u-joints and look close for centering of the yokes. Make sure all the lock clips are in place and none are bent or jammed in.


You've probably already done this but jack up the rear end and run it to examine how true the wheels and driveshaft  are running

 Were the axles shafts measured for runout maybe on of them is bent?Road force balancing is quite a bit different than regular balancing and requires a $7000+ balancer that alot of shops don't have.Your drums may also be out of balance or out of round causing the vibration.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Tech501's Post: YA WE THOUGHT ABOUT PUTTING A EXTENSIONYOKE ON THE VAN. DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT HELP IN THE PROBLEM. WE DID LOOK FOR A PLACE TO CHECK THE DRUMS OUT BUT HAVENT FOUND A PLACE THAT DOES IT.THE DRIVE SHAFT WAS OFF A HAIR AND THE PLACE WE HAD THE VAN AT DOES ONLY DRIVE SHAFTS, THEY FIXED IT AND PUT A NEW TUB ON IT.I WAS JUST TALKING TO MY BOY FRIEND ON THIS AND TOLD HIM WHEN THAT THE BRAKE PEDDEL HAD VIBRATED WHEN THE MAJOR PROBLEM HAPPENED WHEN THE GEAR WENT OUT IN THE PUMPKIN SO MAYBE IT IS A BRAKE DRUM OUT.BUT WOULD THIS COUSE THE GEAR TO GO IN THE PUMPKIN ALSO?
 You didn't check what I suggested. Once the driveshaft is pressed against the lift on those, it will vibrate from that point on and require a new driveshaft. Check for any marks at all in the shaft tube and make sure the u-joints were installed correctly and are perfectly centered. This definately sounds like a driveshaft related problem.
 How did the B3500 question turn into a Neon answer?Any how if all this vibration started after the rear end gears were repaired the rear end is not repaired properly.If that is the case replacing the entire axle assembly may be the best option at this point.Setting a rear end up properly is difficult and requires special tools and replacing the whole assembly does not.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
thank you I was just looking at my email and saw that neon thing.wow. the rear end gear was changed after the vibration got so bad that we didnt dare drive the van anymore, after that we still had the vibration but not as bad as it was before.some one said it was the drive shaft even thow we had that redone??
 I doubt you had 2 bad driveshafts causing vibration.A driveshaft shop is aware of where they get bent on those vans I have seen it many times myself which teels me that they wouldn't be bending or denting it on installation.If the rear end is not set up properly it can cause vibration.Some pinion gears are balanced some are not and the companion flange must be for the proper pinion gear or it will be out of balance.Gear backlash and pinion depth set incorrectly can cause a vibration.I think the person that did the rear end is trying to avoid going back in and rechecking the work that was done.If the bearings in the rear end were not all replaced a vibration could result and improper pinion bearing preload.It seems like the initial problem was the rear end and it hasn't been fixed properly yet.

 Sorry about the neon thing. I don't know how that happened . I was looking for that.


You stated you had the driveshaft redone. I take that as you had yours repaired. If that's the case, you still haven't determined if yours is damaged or if the joints were installed properly. Differential bearings tend to make a lot more noise that vibration unless it's the pinion bearing letting the driveshaft whip but that would be pretty obvious when you shook the shaft.

Customer: replied 11 years ago.
ALL I KNOW IS HE STOOD THERE AND WATCHED HIM FIX THE DRIVE SHAFT I GUESS IT WAS BENT JUST A HAIR HE HEATED IT UP AND STRAIGHTENED IT AND PUT A NEW TUB ON IT . THE DEALER SHIP PUT IN A NEW TRANSMISSION MOUNT IN TODAY AND I GUESS THE DARN THAN IS WORSE NOW, THAT IS THE VIBRATION.WE HAVE SENT SO MANY EMAIL TO DAMILER CHRYSLER ON THIS, IM ALMOST READY TO TAKE IT TO THE NEWS.SENCE THEY WONT HELP THE DEALER SHIP WITH THE PROBLEM AND HOW TO FIX IT. BUT I DO KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN MORE OF A HELP THAN ANYONE SO FAR PLEASE KEEP THE INFO COMING.THANK YOU AGAIN JULIE WE ARE REALLY THINKING THIS HAS GOT TO BE SOMETHING IN THE AXLE

 You CAN"T straighten a driveshaft. It is a balanced component. Why don't you see is you can pick up a used shaft or even borrow one from another van just to try out. You may be just running yourself in circles, ignoring the obvious. I have seen many of them bent accidently when the truck is lifted incorrectly and the damage is vey difficult to see with the naked eye. You have to look for a very small dent in the tube. If you find thast small dent, you be sure that shaft is junk.


A bent axle will be completely obvious when the van is lifted and the wheels are spun. You really can't miss that. There shouldn't be any question about them.

 Has anyone checked the drivetrain operating angles?If it got worse with the new mount the transmission output shaft is higher now and the operating angles are higher also.You need the dealer or a drivetrain specialty shop to check the angles because if they are not correct you will definately get a vibration.When the angles are correct one u-joint will cancel the vibration produced by the other.Too much angle or too little angle you get vibration.You can replace parts forever and if the angle isn't right it will never be fixed. 
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
IM SORRY THIS IS REALLY HARD TO DO WHEN HE IS IN AZ. STUCK AND IM HOME HERE IN IL. YES THE DRIVE SHAFT WAS A NEW ONE THAT WAS JUST PUT IN 2 WEEKS AGO.IT WAS HOOKED UP AND SPON AT 2800 ELECTRONIC BALLANCED EVERYTHING HOOK TO IT BUT THE YOKE ON THE REAR END. HE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THE YOKE ON THE REAR END COULD BE OUT AROUND OR HAS GONE BAD? SORRY FOR ALL THE MESSUP. ITS REALLY GETTING TO ME.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
IT NOW VIBRATION AT A DIFFERNT SPEED PUT STILL THE SAME VIBRATION (NOT MORE NOT LESS)
 The driveshaft turns about 3 times to every revolution of the wheels. The driver should be able to distinguish between the high velocity vibration of something coming from anything between the transmission and the pinion shaft. After the pinion shaft, everything turns slower. If you've ever felt a tire severely out of balance, you know what that feels like. If the frequency is much faster, then the problem has to be before the pinion which is basically the driveshaft and the way it is installed, which would include the angle of it. If you haven't done anything to change the height, then I wouldn't expect the angle to have changed.  
 Yes the yoke could be damaged or not matched to the pinion gear for balance.Like I said some pinion gears and companion flanges(yoke)are match balanced and others are not so the parts may not be the proper ones for the application.But the angle of the driveshaft is very important and needs to be checked with the wheels on the ground and the full weight of the vehicle on the wheels.Pinion angle and transmission out put shaft angle also need measured and then the angles need to be calculated to make sure they are within specs.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
DO YOU BY CHANCE KNOW WHAT THE SPECS ARE
 1 and 1/2 degrees would be ideal.You can't go under 1 degree because you need at least that for the needle bearings in the u-joints to rotate and wear evenly.2 degrees would be max and pushing the limit and still get you some vibration.  
Davo, Master technician
Category: Car
Satisfied Customers: 3253
Experience: ASE Master Technician/Advanced Automotive Diagnostic Technician
Davo and 3 other Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
I GAVE HIM THE INFO OVER THE PHONE HE IS AGREEING 100% WITH YOU ON THIS. HE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF WE DO DESIDE TO CHANGE OUT THE YOKE HOW WILL CAN WE FIND OUT WHICH ONE WILL MATCH UP TO THE PINION GEAR.

You may actually need to have it balanced by a drivetrain shop.There is a tool called an Electronic vibration analyzer that will let you balance the driveshaft,and pinion assembly on the vehicle withe wheels and drums removed.Is this vibration so severe that he can't drive the van?

Customer: replied 11 years ago.
no the vabration isnt that bad , but if he tried to drive it home we feel the rear gear will go out again on it then we will have another 1400 in it. he wanted to know how do you match up the yoke to the pinion gear ( if we were to change the yoke)
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
some more info on what they plaied with on the van: they shimed the axle with a shim on the spring 1/2 in thick on rear and 3/4 in" on front.   they also changed the transmission a 1/4in" on the lower support mount. sounds like a gennie pig van to me
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
i cant seem to get into the right area of your last resposen
 I don't think it would ruin the rear end driving it home.I would need part numbers to check what you would need and can't do that until monday.Ask him to call around and see if there is someone who can strobe balance the driveshaft/pinion assembly on the van with it installed.It's actually the best balance you can get.It should be fairly reasonable and could be done in less than 1 hour.I think that will solve the problem without any more parts provided the angles I mentioned are correct.It would also be cheaper.Don't let that vibration keep him from coming home though.Was the rear end redone in Arizona or Illinois?The gears and all I mean.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
the rear gear was done in new mexico when we were broke down. i wish there was some way off giving you his # XXXXX out putting it on here for every one else
 If he can get a yoke without a balance weight on it it will probably be ok.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
is the yoke and the pinion and pinion shaft balanced together?
 On matched assemblies yes but if you strobe balance the drivetrain it won't matter.I will be back in the morning it's getting late and I have a children to get to bed,sorry.I will let you know when I'm here.
 I'm here
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
GOOD MORNING, I GAVE HIM ALL THE INFO WE TALKED ABOUT LAST NIGHT. HE IS GOING TO TAKE THAT INFO AND PUT IT TO WORK ON MONDAY. WE ARE GOING TO TRY AND FIND A TRANS PLACE TO REDO THE BAL. ON IT ALONG WITH DOING THE MEASUREMENT FIRST TO MAKE SURE THAT IS ALL RIGHT.SO RIGHT NOW I DONT KNOW IF HE HAS MORE ???? FOR YOU MAYBE ILL TRY TO GET YOU LATER TODAY OR TO NIGHT. IF NOT HAVE A WOUNDERFUL WEEKEND AND TALK TO YOU MONDAY HOPEFULLY. THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE HELP YOUR GREAT
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: GOOD MORNING ARE YOU BY CHANCE THERE DAVO/DIALO666
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
DOES ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW HOW WE CAN FIND A SPEACIALIST SHOP THAT WORKS ON DRIVESHAFTS/PINION SETUP???? WE NEED TO HAVE ARE VAN REALINED AND THEN BALANCED WITH A (ELECTRONIC VIBRATION ANALYZER) WE ARE HAVING A PROBLEM FINDING A SHOP THAT WILL HAVE THIS EQUIPMENT.
 Try calling a Gm dealer and asking if they can strobe balance the driveshaft.The eva(electronic vibration analyzer)is an essential tool and will work on any vehicle not just Gm.Also try a Dodge dealer and ask if they have one or the simiar tool.When you find someone who has it I can give instructions on how to strobe balance it.The Gm dealer will have the instructions it's in the service computer.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: IS THAT THE UNIT THAT THEY HOOK UP TO THE TRUCK AND THEN TAKE FOR A TEST DRIVE? OR IS THIS A DEVICE IN HOUSE AT SHOP
 Yes it is you can drive with it for vibration diagnosis or support the vehicle under the axles and attach a timing light to it to strobe balance the driveshaft/pinion assembly.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: GREAT THATS WHAT THE DEALERSHIP THERE DID. AND THEY STILL CANT FIND THE PROBLEM. OR THEY JUST DONT WANT TO FIX IT.
 Find out if they strobe balanced the driveshaft on the van.If they did it will have hose clamps on it going around the tube.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: I JUST TALKED TO HIM AWHILE AGO YES THEY DID BALANCE THE DRIVESHAFT ON THE VAN WITH THE HOSE CLAMPS AROUND THE TUBE. THEY TOLD US THAT THEY STILL CANT PIN POINT THE VIBRATION ON THE VAN. I KNOW WE STILL NEED FOR THE PITCH TO BE FIXED SO WE ARE GOING TO START THERE.
 Please keep in touch.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: hi there davo/diablo666, just wanted to let you know he got a call from someone down there that does alot of high tech. work on autos. so the truck is there for atleast 2 days. they said they can put it back to the specks. and they will go from there. the mac.said he thinks the axle is bent, but wont know tell they get the specks done. Ill let you know more in 2 or 3 days. thanks again for all your help
 I'm glad you found someone qualified to look at it.
Customer: replied 11 years ago.
Reply to Davo/diablo666's Post: today is 4/14/05 will just got call earlier from him looks like they solved the problem at least we think so. the drive shaft was totaly off alinement, they found that the engine was not set right,dont know how this could be,but anyway it is fixed except they said the rims were bent on the rear , again dont know how this happened. anyway just an up date for you. we will know more on monday. have a wonderful weekend.thanks again

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