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bluextc89
bluextc89, Small Business Owner
Category: Car Electronics
Satisfied Customers: 6496
Experience:  MECP Certified, Car Audio Pro 17 Years. Shop owner 5 years.
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Hello. I recently installed a 4 channel 60 x 4 watt jl amp

Customer Question

Hello. I recently installed a 4 channel 60 x 4 watt jl amp in my car.. mu music does sound better but now whenever i hit the accelerator a whinning noise comes from the amp.. any suggestions as to how to stop this form happaning
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Car Electronics
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
This is called alternator whine - and usually induced into the system from poor grounds.

Check your amplifier ground location. Be sure you have scraped away paint to bare metal. If you are using bracing for a ground - know this is spot welded, and not a good choice for a ground.

If you have an aftermarket radio installed - remove the ground from the vehicle's wiring harness, and connect directly to ground instead. The factory ground routes next to computers, and other wires that can cause interference.

Have you run your RCA cables down the OPPOSITE side as your power wire? If not - the power wire may be picking up induced noise in the engine bay and transmitting to the RCAs - especially if they are un-shielded.

Here's a great troubleshooting guide from TermPro - Wayne Harris is a seasoned veteran, and knows his stuff!!....

Alternator Whine

To me, alternator whine is the most annoying form of noise. For those of you who are lucky enough never to have been exposed to alternator whine, it sounds like a miniature siren that rises in pitch with the speed of the engine. Alternator whine is almost always caused by a ground loop. The following steps will aid you in locating and correcting a ground loop problem.

  1. Verify that all levels are set properly. (Click here for related article.)
  2. With the system turned off, unplug the RCA inputs to the amplifier.
  3. Start the vehicle and turn the system on. If the noise is gone go to step 8. If the noise is still present, it is coming from the amp or the speaker wiring. Continue.
  4. Turn the system off and disconnect the speaker harness.
  5. Start the engine and verify that no noise is present. In a few rare instances, I have actually heard speakers reproduce noise without being connected to an amplifier. This noise was being induced by power cables that were very close to the speaker wire. If you do have this type of noise, reroute the appropriate speaker lead and go to step 3.
  6. With the speaker harness still disconnected, check to make sure there are no shorts between the speaker leads and the chassis of the vehicle. A shorted negative speaker lead will create a ground loop by establishing a second audio ground reference point. If you do have a short, trace the wire out and repair it then go to step 3.
  7. With the RCA inputs and speaker harness still disconnected from the amplifier, use your VOM to measure from the shield of the RCA jacks on the amp to the chassis of the vehicle. This reading should not be a direct short (100 ohms or more is acceptable.) If this reading does indicate a direct short, you might have a defective amp and should contact the manufacturer for verification. (Note that there are a few "inexpensive" amps or boosters on the market that have their audio ground and electrical ground commoned internally. For units of this type, the information in this article will be of very little value.)
  8. If you've made it here, you know that the amplifier and speaker wiring are okay.
  9. Connect the accessories in front of the amp (crossovers, equalizers, etc.) one at a time and check for alternator whine. When each device is tested, there should be nothing plugged into the input of that device. In this way, we will work toward the source unit piece by piece. Be sure to turn the system power off before connecting or disconnecting any cables or accessories.
  10. Repeat step 9 until all accessories have been tested.
  11. If a particular accessory is causing noise, try disconnecting it's power ground wire. Go to step 9.
  12. Now it's time to connect the source unit. Do that now and test for noise.
  13. If noise is present, try unplugging the antenna. If the noise goes away, you will need to use an antenna isolator. This little gismo opens the shield wire of the coax to eliminate the ground loop caused by the ground at the antenna.
  14. If you still have noise, try connecting the source unit's ground wire in another location,. preferably as close to the source unit as possible.
  15. Does the noise vary in amplitude when you adjust the volume control? If it does, the problem is probably power line related and not a ground loop. If this is the case, run the source unit's B+ (yellow) wire directly to the positive terminal of the battery. If this doesn't do the trick, you will probably have to use a power line filter on the source unit's B+ (Yel) and Ignition (Red) wires.
Let me know if you have additional concerns.

Thanks!!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
So like.. umm.. I did not install myself.. I went to best buy the geek squad.. so are you saying.. they did a crap job?---LOL

Do I get the group loop insulator or ask them to do the above.. if they installed it this way is it a sign they dont know what they are doing and should I go elsewhere?

Thanks,


Bri
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.

Best Buy is notorious for employing entry-level installers. If you're unhappy with the installation - they should make it right.

 

Ground loop isolators rarely work (in my experience) and the source of the problem should be found - instead of spending more on a product that may not solve it.

 

Have them check it out - and if they cannot find the cause - or solve the issue - trust in a local experienced installer.

 

Even though you didnt DO the install - you can follow the wires to see where it is grounded - and if all the wires go along the same side of the vehicle. This will give you an idea of where to start.

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok.. being new to this.. which wires do I look for. The amp is in my trunk.. Do I follow the wires from the amp and trace them back to the head unit?
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
No - you really only have to do a cursory inspection in the trunk.

There should be to larger wires connected to the amplifier. Red and black are typical - but depending on their wire kits - could be any colors... like blue and silver... but typically red for positive and black for negative.

Follow the (-) wire until it touches the metal somewhere.
Inspect where it is connected... is it an existing bolt? (bad)... screwed with a small screw into a thin brace? (bad)... attached to sheet metal of the vehicle... bare metal, paint sanded away for optimum contact? (good)

You won't know about the routing for the RCAs - but you CAN tell if they go into the back of the rear seat in the same location - they are likely run down the same side as the power wire. (bad) They should be on opposite sides.

You can also pop the hood and check the routing of the power wire (off the (+) post of the battery) and make sure it isn't routed close to the alternator.

There are many paths the noise can be induced into the system. You can TRY a ground loop isolator - but as I said - they really aren't effective for alternator whine.

An experienced installer can troubleshoot the issue and let you know exactly what is going on. The gains on the amplifier may even be improperly set, and the little induced noise is being AMPLIFIED through your system.

There's a lot to check... but there IS a remedy - you just have to find it :)

Any ?s - Just Ask.

Thanks!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
How do I know if its the gains? I really think that is what it is.. The amp was installed in a best buy in FLorida.. when I returned to New York I felt the rear deck 6 x 9 s were overwelming my components in the front door.. So I went to a best buy up here and he adjusted the gains. - And I just realized I dont remember the amp making the noise while I was in Florida!!! - I think you solved the problem already! lol.

My head unit goes up to 40 on the volume but I cant put it up past 15 without the speakers being to loud.. is that a sign to anything... How would you suggest I adjust the gain.

Regards,

Brian
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
Yes - thats definitely an issue that needs resolve.

Often times, installers (with little know-how) tend to try and over-compensate the gain settings on the amplifier and jack them up - so it sounds louder to the customer.

The radio provides the signal (typically 2V) and the amplifier uses that input to make it's output.

If the signal coming in is low - (the radio's volume is one type of gain) the signal is not as clean - so the amplifier has to work harder for the same end result.

Reply with your exact amplifier model # XXXXX and I can give you a step-by-step for setting the gain(s) properly.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

JL Audio J2 320.4 - I know the gains are set by the two min and max knobs... At least I think so....
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
Ok - here's what to do.

graphic

1. Turn the car on - turn the volume on the radio to 0 - then head to the trunk and look on the amplifier for the gain. This Amplifier has (2) Called Input Sensitivity. Turn those BOTH counter-clockwise (left) until at 0 level

2. Ensure the input switch is set properly (if you have 2 sets of RCAs from your radio - it should be on 2&3. If you only have 1 set - switch to 1&2). You can set the bass boost on both channels counter-clockwise to 0dB as well... as they aren't needed if powering full-range interior speakers.

3. ensure FILTER MODE switch is set to HP (High Pass)

4. (I'm assuming they have at LEAST properly set the crossovers - so don't mess with those knobs.

5. Turn on the car START IT - not just accessory.... and turn on the radio. Scroll through the tone menus and return all the tone settings to 0. Bass - treble - mid - high..... whatever settings are on your radio - we wnat them at neutral. These should only be used for fine - tuning to your listening preferences. The easiest way to do this is to reset your radio. This will take all settings back to factory defaults.

6. With the radio and car on - turn the volume up to 30. (alot put it to 40, but I like headroom in case a good song comes on Surprised.

7. at this point you should hear little to no sound from the radio. (maybe some small hissing - to be expected.

8. Either use a partner (or your going to take a few trips back and forth to the trunk) and turn up the FRONT gain (assuming 1 and 2 channel) on the LEFT of the RCA connections SLOOOOOWLY. Check the interior volume - and keep turning the gain up until you reach one of 2 levels...
a. the speakers are clipping - playing beyond their power handling capabilities... if you get to this point - voices sound muddy, and you can just HEAR the speakers are not performing well.... (turn the gain BACK a little to get out of clipping) - and this is the front gain setting.
b. the speakers are too loud for your tastes. This will be the maximum setting these speakers will ever play - so get them to about the level you think you're comfortable listening to at full blast - this is now the front gain setting.

9. Time to add the rear fill. Rear fill is just that - reaer fill. Your stereo's "sound stage" should be the dashboard. It should sound like the music is playing at a concert in front of you. With the volume at 30 still - you - or your assistant add rear fill using the gain knob for channel 3&4. This will add some depth and lower frequencies. When you get to the point the rear speakers begin clipping - or the sound stage begins shifting to the back (overpowering the front) you have reached your rear gain setting.

10. Turn down the radio to 0 and let your ears rest a bit. After some time - get in like you normally would and turn the volume up to a comfortable listening volume level. Now is the time to boost or attenuate the tone controls... to adjust them to your listening preference. Highs for crisper cymbals, mids for richer guitar, bass for lower tones. Play something you are familiar with on a lossless media (cd) MP3 and radio do not provide adequate signals for adjusting tone settings.

At this point - you should be able to tell whether or not it helped with the engine noise.

Let me know how it turns out.

Thanks!
bluextc89, Small Business Owner
Category: Car Electronics
Satisfied Customers: 6496
Experience: MECP Certified, Car Audio Pro 17 Years. Shop owner 5 years.
bluextc89 and 3 other Car Electronics Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
You are a true expert in your filed. I have not done the adjustments yet becasue I am going to getting new 6 x 9s this week and figured let me wait till they come. I will be speaking to you again!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
How do I send you a picture.. In addition to the gains on the amp.. I have settings on my head unit that I have no idea what they mean... my HPF, SLA< staging,
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
You can attach a picture (with a size limit) by using the paperclip just above the text field you type your reply in.

graphic
HPF = High Pass Filter. You can leave this at whatever setting is near 100Hz This is the cutoff for the frequency you want to send to the speakers. You really don't want your speakers playing below 100Hz. This will filter all frequencies under 100Hz going to the amplifier - which makes it more efficient by not amplifying signal that is not being used.

SLA = Source Level Adjustment. Each source will have this adjustment - so like when you are playing MP3s which aren't a true audio signal - this compensates for that loss by boosting the level (gain). But when you switch back to CD... you won't need to make any adjustment - it remembers the level for each source. Mainly - so once you have your system "tuned" you don't need to mess with the volume when you switch sources. It's more of a convenience rather than a feature on Pioneer units.



bluextc89, Small Business Owner
Category: Car Electronics
Satisfied Customers: 6496
Experience: MECP Certified, Car Audio Pro 17 Years. Shop owner 5 years.
bluextc89 and 3 other Car Electronics Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok.. 6 x 9 selection.. I think might have asked you this question before... Because I cant listen to speakers I am buying on Crutchfield it is difficult to make a decision. But based on reviews here are my final choices: you are familiar with my system now.. What do you think would be a good complement to by components in the front and the current jl audio amp. The only thing close that I have personally experienced are JBL products. I had a JBL Home system that was on the low end of their series and they still kicked ass. I thought they beat the shit out of the bose 301's I had once before. - So are JBL car audio products just as good as their home theater systems.. When it comes to rms am I getting something close to the 40 rms of the component in the doors so 1 set of speakers doesn't over power the other ones.. If I dont wanna rely on a sub for bass what would be a good pick that would give up good chrips mids and highs.. (Again, I might have asked you this already - for whatever reason I am not able to access previous questions on just answer)

Brian


Alpine SPR-69C
6"x9" 2-way car speakers



Boston Acoustics SC95
6"x9" 2-way car speakers


Infinity Kappa 693.9i
6"x9" 3-way car speakers


JL Audio C2-690tx
Evolution™ Series 6"x9" 3-way car speakers


JBL
T696
High-output 6" x 9" speaker system
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok.. 6 x 9 selection.. I think might have asked you this question before... Because I cant listen to speakers I am buying on Crutchfield it is difficult to make a decision. But based on reviews here are my final choices: you are familiar with my system now.. What do you think would be a good complement to by components in the front and the current jl audio amp. The only thing close that I have personally experienced are JBL products. I had a JBL Home system that was on the low end of their series and they still kicked ass. I thought they beat the shit out of the bose 301's I had once before. - So are JBL car audio products just as good as their home theater systems.. When it comes to rms am I getting something close to the 40 rms of the component in the doors so 1 set of speakers doesn't over power the other ones.. If I dont wanna rely on a sub for bass what would be a good pick that would give up good chrips mids and highs.. (Again, I might have asked you this already - for whatever reason I am not able to access previous questions on just answer)

Brian


Alpine SPR-69C
6"x9" 2-way car speakers



Boston Acoustics SC95
6"x9" 2-way car speakers


Infinity Kappa 693.9i
6"x9" 3-way car speakers


JL Audio C2-690tx
Evolution™ Series 6"x9" 3-way car speakers


JBL
T696
High-output 6" x 9" speaker system - 150 RMS!
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
Here are the Car Electronics questions on your ID:

6x9 Kappa question LINK
Prestige Alarm question LINK **
Pioneer 920 Question LINK **
Upgrade Recommendations LINK
AVIC-X920BT iPod question LINK**
** = questions I have answered

So as you can see - I have not been involved in the selection process for your audio.

From what I have read - you have.... The AVIC-920BT and the 2 JBL amps in this question.

Reply to me exactly what is in your car - and what year Monte you have this in.

One of the most important specs you can look for in a speaker is it EFFICIENCY.
This is measured by dB (decibels)
The Higher the efficiency - the better the speaker will sound - as it takes LESS power for the speaker to produce the same output as a speaker with a lower efficiency.

To get the rating - they put 1 Watt to the speaker, and take an SPL measuremnt with the MIC at 1 Meter. You often see the spec listed as 98dB @ 1watt/1 meter. This is a baseline standard for comparison purposes.

some other things you may want to look for is built-in protection circuity or crossovers since you do not have any tuning components besides the settings on the amplifier.

Lastly - rear fill is just that - Rear Fill. It is for the REAR seat passengers.
Your sound stage should be the dash. The music should sound like you are at a concert... with the band in front of you. It's why you often find competitors with NO rear speakers - and 3 sets in each door - or compression drivers (horns) under the dash.
Rear speakers are good in home theatres with surround sound - but not worth the extra investment. Get a "good" pair of coaxials - and perhaps spend the difference on an 11 or 31 band EQ to tune your system properly.

What is your budget for the 6x9s? And are you planning on purchasing Online - or in person?

I suggest visiting a few places to get a good idea of the difference in speakers. For instance - Alpine uses on-board capacitors and tend to have tinnier highs. JBL seems to be geared to be LOUD... and Infinity are inbetween. Nice overall - but low power handling.

BA would be my choice of the ones you listed.... based on SOUND alone. Not specs. Your ears and tastes may be different. The SC95 are 3-ways. They are ACTUALLY 2-ways with an extra tweeter. :)
Sensitivity is 92dB
60W RMS power handling


Based on SPECS ALONE - the JL would be the choice.





Customer: replied 3 years ago.
It is a chevy monte carlo 2004.
I have the pioner 920bt head.
I have rockford fosgate 40 rms components in the door.
1 jl audio 60 x 4 watt amp running the current 6 x 9s and components.

There is a hatch back compact style powered infinity single 10 in sub woofer with the two air vents on the side. ( wrong type of sub for this car - I got it for free so couldn't complain lol) but i would like to either change it out for another box ( possibly a two 10s or a single 12) till I do that though I would like a 6 x 9 that does deilver some bass.

I like to some hip hope but I am mostly a rock and roll guy. I do not like the boom boom shit you hear kids driving around today. I like solid sounding crisp sounds at all spectrums.. high mid and low..

The JL audios are the most expensive on the list..I was looking at spending anywhere from 125 to 160. But would consider more if there was a really difference in sound for the extra $$$.

Now that you have a better picture of my situation do you still stand with you current suggestion of the BA's? -

Last question.. do you do installs in new york.. you seem to know your stuff.

Bri
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
Crisp, and tight bass is a good characteristic of a SEALED enclosure. The response is tighter, and uses less power than a vented enclosure.

Without signal processing - that pricerange is going to be just where you want to stay.
No sense spending $350 on speakers that you can't tune.

I'm nowhere near New York. Sorry :)

There are plenty of great independent shops out there - but it's best to stay away from ones with Best or Buy in their name Laughing

AUTO DESIGN
SOUND TRAX

Even if you don't buy - they can be a good source of information and comparison.
You can become familiar with other brands - which may offer cheaper or better alternatives... like Diamond Audio, Massive Audio, and Digital Designs... or ones you may not have heard of like CDT or Rainbow.

From your list - either the BA or JL will be good. Stay away from the Alpine.
bluextc89, Small Business Owner
Category: Car Electronics
Satisfied Customers: 6496
Experience: MECP Certified, Car Audio Pro 17 Years. Shop owner 5 years.
bluextc89 and 3 other Car Electronics Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I am probably going to with the BA becasue of price difference. But before my purchase I will go listen to a few different speakers.. The problem is when you listen to speakers on a sales floor it is never the same harmonics as the actual car.. as im sure you would agree..

Regardless.. you are a true proffesional in your field and very knowledgable.

Thank you for your help.

Brian
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.

You're correct - not the same - but you can often get a sense of the difference in efficiency and passive crossover points - when (all other things are equal on the sound board) the switcher plays one set vs another.

 

If it is quieter - the efficiency is lower... also the highs (tweeter) are directional - so you CAN get a good representation of the tweeter performance and crossover points. The woofer - not so much.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Hi. So I turn down the gain on the rear deck and front speakers like you suggested and now the whining whistle sound is gone.. .Also there is not as much static when playing the radio as well. I messed with the other settings on the head.. just to many of them.. custom eq.. But the speakers def sound better...

Now, I would like to attempt to install my new BA 6 x 9s in the rear deck on my own and not let best buy do it.. Crutchfied sent me a vehicle specific diagram but to be honest it was not clear on a lot of parts.. i tried to find a video on you tubre.. found one but it was poorly done.. DO you have any advise where Icould get detailed step by step advise on how to do the install..

Thanks,

Brian

Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.

They load from the top.

 

You MAY need to remove the seat - but I don't remember ever having to do it in that style Monte. Look for trim panel fasteners to remove, and you may be able to just get the rear deck trim off.

 

Take a look at this 5th gen Monte forum page. Someone went through all the trouble already with tons of pics.

 

CLICK HERE

 

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I dont think you gotta take the whole fuc*in seat off.. Where would I buy the tools for this.. is a rachett all I need/... thats what I see in the picture
Expert:  bluextc89 replied 3 years ago.
If you don't remove the seat, there should be trim panel pins...

Some refer to as "christmas trees"

graphic
View Full Image


These can be removed with a panel pin removal tool...
graphic
View Full Image


Any of the black ones should work.

Can be found at an auto parts store.

If the seat needs to be removed - a ratchet is all you will need. Probably a 18mm (or 3/4")

In this picture - I have circled the pin securers... and it also appears the rear of the seat must come off (witness marks on the carpet show these are covered by the seat back).

graphic
View Full Image


In most vehicles - the rear seat must be removed to get the rear deck lid off - if the speaker grills do not come out - and if they are nor removeable from the trunk.

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