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Dan
Dan, Technician
Category: Buick
Satisfied Customers: 21477
Experience:  Independent Shop Experience, 2 Year Automotive Diploma, & Access to Information Database
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2002 Buick Rendezvous cranks fast, (new batt) but just wont

Resolved Question:

2002 Buick Rendezvous cranks fast, (new batt) but just wont fire up. What component or issue might be causing this car to refuse to start. I here the fuel pump coming on and off as it should. all fuses in the console and under hood ignition fuses are good. I have noticed that the radio lights come on bright at first but then go so dim in daylight that you can barely see the numbers.

I have read that this is a common issue with buick. They say if you leave it for 20 to 30 minutes it will start.

What is you take on this and how do I fix this issue?

Joseph
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: Buick
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Try to disconnect the battery and touch the cables together for 10 seconds, let me know if that helps. Thanks.
Dan, Technician
Category: Buick
Satisfied Customers: 21477
Experience: Independent Shop Experience, 2 Year Automotive Diploma, & Access to Information Database
Dan and 8 other Buick Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OK I will try that and see. Have to do it in the morning to dark tonight.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Ok, let me know how it goes. Thanks.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
Before I disconnected the batt cables I trie dto start the car this morning and it started right up. Then I did what you suggested and then the car tried to start but would not take off. Is this something in the ECM?

Joseph
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
How long did you run it before shutting it down again? Try to disconnect the battery again and touch the cables together for 10 seconds and if it doesnt start check for spark and let me know. Thanks.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I only ran it for about a minute. I will try the cables thing again and see it it will start. Back to you shortly.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Ok, also is any of the lights on such as security, check engine ,service vehicle soon?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
No on any of the lights. I have seen the security light come on once with the key turned on. I just did the batt thing and it would not start. There is no spark to the plugs.

What next?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
It sounds like you have a problem with the ignition switch or crank sensor. At the ignition module, check the Pink wire for 12 volts key on and during cranking. Check the Black wire for a chassis ground. If losing power on the Pink wire at the ignition module, then go to the ignition switch and check the Pink wire coming from it for loss of voltage also.
If OK then disconnect the connector going to the crank sensor, it should have a Yellow and Purple wire. Check resistance of the sensor it should be(NNN) NNN-NNNNohms. If not in specification check wiring to the sensor for problems or for a bad crank sensor. If resistance is OK then plug the sensor in and back probe those wires and check AC voltage while cranking. Should produce 0.600 mV or higher. I meant to send this as a info request, no need to accept.

Edited by Dan on 7/23/2010 at 5:08 PM EST
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Where is thew ignition module located?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
It is what the coils attatch to.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I checked the 12V cranking to the ignition module pink wire and its 11.79 volts while cranking, 12.59 volts with key on, and the ground seems good on the black wire. I went to the crank pully on the lower side looking for the crank sensor and found that it seems to be a small wire harness enclosed in the loop plastic type harness that goes under the crank pully which looks to mean I will have to pull the crank pully to get to the plug. (Man that seems a major job with the limited room). PS: Is the crank sensor at this location or am I lucky and its actually somewhere else on this car?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

What is battery voltage while cranking. You can also access the crank sensor wire going into the pcm which would probably be easier to at least backprobe the wires and monitor voltage. It is the a and b terminals of connector 2 on the pcm is where the wires go. Here is a picture of sensor.

 

graphic

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Well I found the only purple wire in the ECM and one of the yellow wires right nect to it and tested the ohms to be 4.23. I asume this means the crank sensor os the culprit. HOLLY SHIT THIS MEANS THE TRANS NEEDS TO COME OUT TO CHANGE THIS SENSOR. I could see the sensor but there is no way to get to it thru that less than 2 inch crack between the trans and motor. Its the sensor on the side of the lower back lower side of the block just above the oil pan right?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

No, you dont need to remove the transmission and check the ac voltage output of the sensor. You can get to this sensor by removing the front wheel if its 2wd or the catalytic converter bolts if its awd.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OK Great. I also checked the cranking volts and I was at about 8 volts with the batt drained down from all this cranking so far.

On the sensor, your saying the left frt wheel and the cat bolts removed will give me access to the sensor. What is the warranty time on this repair?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
8 vollts doesnt make sense.......it shouldnt go over 1volt and should be at least 0.6v AC voltage. It is about a 1.5 hour job.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OK Great to know on the time. I was measuring the DC cranking amps on the pos side of the batt while cranking. I thing we are talking about two different volts. You are saying AC and I was saying DC. I just reread your MV above. I will retest the crank sensor. However If I disconnect the ECM plug from the ECM will this cause a misreading or will the sensor still register ac volts?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
It will still register volts, the sensor produces voltage so you need to put each voltmeter lead on each wire going to the sensor.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OK I got 0.27 MV AC on the sensor while cranking. The key would not turn the motor over while the ECM was disconnected. Used a screwdrive to engage starter from below.

I will buy a sensor and go for it now. Thanks

Joseph

Signing off now
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Ok, let me know if you still have problems after replacing but this looks like the issue. Thanks.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
I replaced the rear crank position sensor (Bitch of a job). Anyway the car still will not start at all on its own.

First I would like to say that the gas cap has been off the car for a few days since I am refinishing that 1/4 panel. I removed the gas door and cap. However the car ran just fine after the cap was removed for a while. I don't believe this need to be a fuel presurized system does it? i did put the cap back on but to no avail.

Second after changing the sensor I also unhooked the mass air flow sensor and sprayed eather into the mass air flow and the car started nad ran but only while the eather was being sprayed into the mass air flow.

What do you suggest may be the issue with fuel on this car. OH, the gas gauge says 3/8's tank and the fuel pump can be heard when turning the key on and off. It runs for approx 3 second each way of the key.

What do you think???

Joseph
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Ok, if it started with alternative fuel that means you have sp ark.....So we have been doing the wrong tests so far......Now you need to do a fuel pressure test and if fuel pressure is low verify the pump ha good power/ground and replace the filter. If its still low then replace the pump. If fuel pressure is good check for good voltage to the injectors and see if ground pulsates off/on whiel trying to start.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
What's the PSI saposed to be on this car for fuel?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.


Fuel Pressure
Pressure 1 (PSI)Pressure 2 (PSI)Pressure 3 (PSI)
RangeNoteRangeNoteRangeNote
52.0 - 59.0Y40142.0 - 56.0Y40252.0Y403
Y401: System pressure with ignition on & engine off (PSI).
Y402: System pressure while idling (PSI).
Y403: Fuel pump pressure (PSI) with return line briefly restricted.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
I have great fuel pressure all the way to the motor but absolutly no pressure in the return line with the gauge connector. I pulled all the lines off coming from the tank to and past the filter which is clean and new looking. There is good pressure right up to the motor on the largest fuel line at the intake manifold. Now how could all 6 injectors go off line at once if there is not an electrical issue somewhere along the way that has shut them all off. I see an electrical unit on the drivers side of the motor that feeds the return line with the check valve connector on it.

Also I think the large flat plug on the passengers side top of motor would be the injector wire harness. It has approx 15 or 18 pins and is purple in color on the inside. Is this whe the injectors get their power from?

Also what else can be blocking fuel to the engine?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

The fuel pressure regulator is what allows fuel to go in the return line. But even if that was blocked it should only cause high oil pressure.....You tested the fuel pressure on the rail and it was good? Did you check for power/ground on the inhjector? Was your security/theft light on/flashing in anyway it wasnt before?

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I didn't check the injectors because I can not get to them without pulling the plenum panel off the motor. This is why I asked about that large flat plug on the top of the motor. I thought I could check them their if I knew what wires to test.

As for the security light, I did see it come on a wile back when the key was turned on for a moment. Haven't seen it come on since but that does not mean it hasn't come on and I just didn't see it. I have changed the air bag module on this car last week. This car was in an accident before I bought it and I am restoring it to drive for myself. The car ran great when I bought it started every time without hesitation.

What can I do if the security light has locked something out?
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Try this......bump the key into the crank position for a second then leave it in on position for 10 minutes, off for 5 seconds, on for 10 minutes, off for 5 seconds, on 10 minutes, then try to start it.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Well Dan
That did not work. At the end I turned off the key after the last 10 minutes and waited a few seconds before trying to start the car. It would not run though.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Did it stop starting after you did some work or were you driving it, went to go start it and it didnt fire?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I was driving it around the yard and turned it off and it would not start again.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

check the 15 amp fuel inj fuse under the hood in location 11 of the under hood fusebox.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I checked all those fuses before and all were good. I just rechecked tham all again and they are all OK.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
What was the fuel pressure key on engine off? Also fuel pressure while cranking?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I only checked fuel pressure with key on, engine no crank and it went to 65 PSI. There is no fuel at all in the return line where you normally check the fuel pressure. In fact that line was not even wet inside. I pulled the pressure valve out to see earlier.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
So where did you check the fuel pressure at?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I pulled the filter off first and checked it their and then after putting to filter back on a traced the lines up to the motor to make sure there was no damage to any of the lines. Then I pulled the large hose off and checked it their by connecting a rubber hose to the end of the incoming line and the other end to a gauge. Had to use hose clamps to do this.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
If there is no fuel at the rail but fuel at the filter either the filter or the line is clogged.....
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Is there any kind of electric cutoff in or before the fuel rail? The filter is good, I could blow air thru it easily by mouth.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

There is not cut off before the fuel rail, here are replacement instructions and I would replace the fuel filter.

 

graphic

graphic

graphic

 

 

graphic

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OK, How about testing these injectors first. Is that large plug I mentioned earlier a means of testing the injectors without pulling the plenum? If so what color wires and what voltage should I be getting.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

Well if you have no fuel at the fuel rail its a problem. Otherwise you can monitor ground pulsating at the pcm where the injectors go in, here is a wire diagram.

 

graphic

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Can you tell me where the powertrain control module is located. There is just t many things to guess at it.
I am going to check for power and ground thru the injector system.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
ComponentLocation
Powertrain Control ModuleEngine Compartment, Secured In The Air Cleaner Assembly
graphic
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
OH, I didn't think the ECM was that same module. Sorry.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I have gone thru all wiring and tested for open wires between the ecm and the injector main plud on top of the plenum panel. All wire connected. During cranking each injector wire was registering 0.4 volts and the pink was at 12.58 volts. all systems seem to be working yet it still will not run.

However on the fuel pressure line that looked to be the return pressure line to the tank was in fact the EVP lin which only has a 1 psi max pressure and was in fact hooked to a vacuuim line comming of one of the valve covers. It seem I can not find the main fuel pressure check connector on this car.

Where migh it be?

I have great pressure up to the motor on the main line after the fuel filter.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
The fuel pressure test port is on top at the end of the injector rail. When checking the other wire cranking your suppose to be checking for gorund pulsating off on using a voltmeter or testlight. The testlight should flicker or if you use a voltmeter put on lead on battery positive and the other lead on the injector wire as negative and see if you get a voltage reading while cranking.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I have looked all over the top of this motor for this port but I have not found it yet. I don't think I am that blind yet Ha Ha. Could it be hiding under the plenum?

I will retest using your negative and positive method and see if I get anything other than the 0.4 volts I got with my test meter using the positive instead of negative way round.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

You can see the fuel test port in the middle of the two rails. I think you can access it from the edge under the intake. Here is a picture.

 

graphic

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
I think I know what the problem is.I am going to buy a new ECM tomorrow. What is the voltage needed to open the injectors? I was getting with your reverse way of connecting the pos side to the pos batt side and the neg to the injector. I got approv 0.5 Volts.

Now for what I think it is, I should have known better, I was welding on the car with the ECM connected and the bat connected. As an insurance appraiser I should have remembered to disconnect the ECM first. Carpart.com has several ECM's from $40 to $75

I am calling it quits for today.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Ok, also call the dealership and make sure they are able to program a used module. its kinda hard to test the ground drivers with a voltmeter so use a led testlight if you have one.
Dan, Technician
Category: Buick
Satisfied Customers: 21477
Experience: Independent Shop Experience, 2 Year Automotive Diploma, & Access to Information Database
Dan and 8 other Buick Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
I have been pulling my hair out over this matter. It seems that the issue is with the security system. After plugging in the new airbag module is when all this no start started. I have taken it to the dealer and paid the $115 for a relean but they could not do it. They were locked out of the air bag module. I feel the guy doing it was not well trained on this stuff. I went home with the car running but only after 3 hours a dicking around with it. The air bag moduel is the same one that was in the car all along, it was not replaced with a different one, just reprogramed by someone in georgia. I have also read many places that this can be doen and even a junk yard BCM and or a air bag moduel can be inserted in to this car and it will work just fine.

Now after coming home with the car it ran that night bey the next morning it just will not start again. The key has PK3 stamped on it. I have read that if it were a master it woulf have PK3M stamped on it which it does not have. Its the only key I got with the car.

Now QUESTION:
If I get another key and do a relearn, the 30 minute procedure with the key I have do you think it may work and start the car?


FYI: I have no security light lit on the dash.

Your thoughts????

Joseph
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

These vehicles do have alot of body control module related issues, so I'd assume thats the problem. I havent tried a used bcm but have been told it works but the security light is on since the vin's cant be matched up. They can only be programmed once on this vehicle. You can get a used one from www.car-parts.com sort by price and have them ship it to you to save money. I would also try to disconnect the airbag module to see if that helps. Let me know if you have questions, thanks.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
YES actually I have one question. Can the key or the module around the key become corrupt? Or is there a known issue with the module around the key failing? I have read a lot about this class of car from GM no matter if it s a buick or chevy or pontiac, they all have this starting issue at random. I however cannot get mine to run at all.

FYI: I have disconnected the air bag module while at the dealer, that is when we got the car to start for the rest of that day. We left it disconnected but as mentioned earlier the car no longer starts at all the next day.

I have also ordered a bypass module they use for remote starts to see if that will help. If necessary I will install a remote start as well and see if it will start using just the remote. I can live with useing a remote all the time. Man what a F#/@.. pain this piece of crap car is. I really am getting real tired of GM all together. I have several of them and all cost way to much money to maintain. A friends ford has been way better and almost cost free to maintain over the last 8 years she has driven it.

Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.

They do have problems with the passkey sensors also, but usually turns on a check engien light or at the dealership they should see codes stored in the body control module. Let me know if you have questions, thanks.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I just want to say thanks so far for your help. I am going to buy another key tomorrow and have it cut to the vin, just a thought as I have read that some people have had good luck with using a spare key and learning it to the car using the 30 minute learning process even though the master key would not start the car. GM has their head up their ass on this one. I will let you know how the next few days turn out of trial and errors.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
Ok, let me know what you find out or if you run into questions. Thanks.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
Can you send me the test procedure for the Passkey on the colmn and the BCM? I need to trace down which may be causing this issue. Pictures always help to identify parts and locations. It seems the BCM is under the radio in the console. Also as I understand it the way to remove the key lock cylinder outer housing or assy is to push in on a pin on the top of the cylinder while in on position. I don't seem to be able to see the hole because there is a plastic cover obstructing the hole. Am I correct in the location of this release pin for the ignition tumbler release. The tumbler needs to come out before I can remove the plastic colmn cover which will then allow access to remove the Passkey assy.

Thanks again for any images and test procedures you can supply.

Joseph
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Dan
I seem to have finally got the car to start on a regular basis. I am however going to install the passkeyIII bypass module when it arrives.

FYI: What I did to get to this stage was,
1. Pulled on hair real hard and kicked car repeatedly in tires and tail pipe.
2. Disconnected all the plugs on the BCM and the Passkey III inside the column and the air bag module under the right front seat. At this point the security light finally came on. I reconnected all the plugs and tried to start the car. NO GO.
3. Turned on ignition to on position (no start) and left it for 45 mins to an hour. Came back and turned key off and pulled it out if ignition. Waited a few seconds and inserted key and it started right up. Then I pluggen in the air bag module while the car was running. all went well and the air bags are working correctly and the car now starts every time (SO FAR ANYWAY).

Thanks for the help.
Expert:  Dan replied 4 years ago.
The body control module can get wet, so it sounds like maybe it got wet and caused the connectors to have poor connections. At least its running now, let me know how it turns out, thanks.

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