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Ask Philip Van Cleave Your Own Question

Philip Van Cleave
Philip Van Cleave, Associate Degree
Category: Blue Book of Guns, Firearms Appraisals
Satisfied Customers: 3798
Experience:  Firearms appraiser.
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I have a 20 bore side by side boxlock non ejector shotgun by

Customer Question

I have a 20 bore side by side boxlock non ejector shotgun by Webley and Scott, 2 1/2 inch chambers proof marked in 1925, registered number 94700. I would like to know what modle it is thanks. I hope you can help.
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Blue Book of Guns, Firearms Appraisals
Expert:  Philip Van Cleave replied 1 year ago.

That should be a Webley & Scott 500 series shotgun, based on the year it was made. But it could be a 400. My reference shows that gun made around 1920/1921, but since you have a 1925 proof mark, we'll have to go with that.

Can you attach some photos showing both sides of the gun?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I found a list of production dates linked with date of manufacture on www.Doublegunshop.com This stated that numbers starting 94000 were produced in 1920 and those beginning 95000 were produced 1921.
On either external side of the boxlock action the words, Webley and Scott Ltd, are engraved. This name was first registered in 1906
The barrels appear to have been seamlessly re-sleeved as there is a join in the top rib. The top rib is engraved Webley & Scott Ltd*****London SW1, although known as Birmingham gun makers they had a series of London showrooms, the Victoria Street one being occupied from 1921 to 1928.
See http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=344560
On the breech the proof marks are BV under a crown and BNP under a crown; these are Birmingham Proof Marks for a view and for Nitro Proof
There is also the winged bullet with W & S underneath, trademark of Webley and Scott.
On the flats of each of the barrels the Proof Marks are, BP under a crown, (Black powder proof), BV and BNP under crowns as above, NP under a crown and the words Nitro proof, the letter R under a crown (indicating reproof) then, 3 tons per, the sign for a square and the inch “ sign indicating a service pressure of 3 tons per square inch, as diamond shape with 20 C inside indicating 20 bore choked barrels, the number 20 again indicating 20 bore and a barrel diameter of .6i5. Additionally on one barrel flat there is the remains of a proof mark showing crossed antique weapons the crown above has disappeared and there are faint markings only the 3 letters below, presumably B C P.
On each barrel tube there is a provisional proof mark of a signature surmounted by a Crown.
This would lead me to presume it was originally built not earlier than 1906 due to the name engraved on the action and the antique crossed weapons mark was on some existing stock in the shop, it was probably built between 1921 and 1928 due to the engraving on the rib, then re-sleeved and reproofed between 1954 and 1989 due to the .615 stamps on the flats, although I bought the gun in the early 1980’s and these marks were on it then.
There are no words, not for ball or choke on the flats nor is there a service load weight given on the flats but as with all old guns who can tell exactly what happened.
I am not sure if the winged bullet logo was applied to their shotguns or not but if not then it may be a converted double rifle or cape gun however the gun is light, 5lb 11oz and excellently balanced. I’ve worked it hard and it has been a joy to shoot.
I then found this site; http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/Webley%2016%20BLE/Webley%2016%20%20BLE%20Details.htm
which displays a very similar gun although an ejector, mine has less engraving and therefore a lower grade) and gives relevant dates for it which could confirm that it was built from old stock parts from before the merger. Their photos are much better than mine and it's the only gun I've seen on the web that has 3 pins in the action, the underside is the same, the band or join on the rob is the same however there is no dolls head extension on the rib. It has disc set strikers, the stock is the same and the fore-end is almost the same except mine does not have a push button release, it's a pull off design, i.e. insert a finger behind the tip of the fore-end and pull it off.I've tried to attach photos of my gun but keep getting an error message from your site.The reason I require to know the model is I am sending it to my son in Australia and the police there require to know what model it is to satisfy their computer form.Thanking you in anticipationBob
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just noticed the the first url for Double guns shop is incorrect, it should be http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vMY3bhqHA64/UfljlUJBmsI/AAAAAAAAAN4/IwS0zyMO9v8/s1600/IMG_0088.JPG
Expert:  Philip Van Cleave replied 1 year ago.

I'm just not able to match those three pins to a model with my references (they have two pins and a screw, which is nearest the hand guard.

I'm going to opt out and let another expert see if he can find the exact model.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just spoken with Gallyon & Sons who hold Webley and Scott's old records and they have confirmed that it is a Model 3, third grade. Thanks for your efforts hope the info about Gallyon and son may help out yourselves and others who have a problem with the identification of Webley & Scott shotguns

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